Old issue, and one that likely wont be fixed, Paradox has made it very clear that it is WAD that Europeans are stomping non-Europeans. After all, the game is not called 'Europa Universalis' for no reason.
Please strengthen the Asian countries
- Thread starter seamoss
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One of the recurring problems in EU3 which has not gone away in EU4 is the thorny question of how to simultaneously achieve the following things:
- AI China should approximately never get west of the Urals.
- AI Russia should approximately never get south of the Great Wall.
- AI Manchu should, at least some of the time, supplant the Ming.
I don't think anyone expects the Asian or African countries to win, they want a more gentle stomping.
Treading, if you will.
Exactly - using 5k western troops to actually win against 50-100k huge stacks is just too extreme.
And instant wipes once you attack with 30k+ stacks *no matter what your opponent has* is pretty un-fun too. But that's pretty much how it currently goes.
And instant wipes once you attack with 30k+ stacks *no matter what your opponent has* is pretty un-fun too. But that's pretty much how it currently goes.
Buffs to Asia to start with:
1. Make Eastern religions competent: Heretic tolerance is harmful under the game's current model when it's positive. Right now, non-Shinto eastern religions can't finish religious ideas or they get 100's of heretic province flip events if holding a big empire.
2. Scrap the monarch point penalty.
With those two things, Asia will be a lot stronger than now while Europe would still hold a considerable advantage, but not so large an advantage that the feats required for what happened historically are utterly trivialized.
Also, Ming cores are like Finland's, France's, or Austria's. There's a lot of nations in this game that can be screwed by their cores actually. Where Ming is uniquely terrible is in it's factions. It's not just human Russia that trashes Ming early-mid 1500's...literally any horde that's near Ming (including Mongol Khanate, which starts as a 9 tax vassal under a nation with double its military with said military led by a shock V general) can beat them and pop out some of Shun before 1500. Anybody in SEA that unifies it can beat Ming trivially (Dai Viet is particularly strong, Ayuthaya's not bad). Indian nations like Bengal or Orissa that can get over there easily can flatten them too.
Also, Indian/Chinese units aren't THAT much worse than their European counterparts until early military tech 20s. Caroline infantry at tech 23 is 33 pips, while Chinese has 28 pips and Indian has 29. That's not insignificant, but when you factor in artillery being equal Europe would struggle to win even 1:1.5 despite ideas (hell, as Nomad I've beaten Western troops when I had a few techs on it which happens when Asians Westernize + finish). The problem is the tech point deficit + higher tech cost makes it impractical to actually maintain similar tech unless you're a human that farms out Ming ASAP to get the +3 advisors.
1. Make Eastern religions competent: Heretic tolerance is harmful under the game's current model when it's positive. Right now, non-Shinto eastern religions can't finish religious ideas or they get 100's of heretic province flip events if holding a big empire.
2. Scrap the monarch point penalty.
With those two things, Asia will be a lot stronger than now while Europe would still hold a considerable advantage, but not so large an advantage that the feats required for what happened historically are utterly trivialized.
Also, Ming cores are like Finland's, France's, or Austria's. There's a lot of nations in this game that can be screwed by their cores actually. Where Ming is uniquely terrible is in it's factions. It's not just human Russia that trashes Ming early-mid 1500's...literally any horde that's near Ming (including Mongol Khanate, which starts as a 9 tax vassal under a nation with double its military with said military led by a shock V general) can beat them and pop out some of Shun before 1500. Anybody in SEA that unifies it can beat Ming trivially (Dai Viet is particularly strong, Ayuthaya's not bad). Indian nations like Bengal or Orissa that can get over there easily can flatten them too.
Also, Indian/Chinese units aren't THAT much worse than their European counterparts until early military tech 20s. Caroline infantry at tech 23 is 33 pips, while Chinese has 28 pips and Indian has 29. That's not insignificant, but when you factor in artillery being equal Europe would struggle to win even 1:1.5 despite ideas (hell, as Nomad I've beaten Western troops when I had a few techs on it which happens when Asians Westernize + finish). The problem is the tech point deficit + higher tech cost makes it impractical to actually maintain similar tech unless you're a human that farms out Ming ASAP to get the +3 advisors.
Both could stand for a little, actually, though it depends by what you mean when you say "strengthen Iraq". The in-game country doesn't exist at the 1444 bookmark other than as QQ cores, but the Muslim group really gets screwed hard at tech 12, where everyone else Chinese and better gets a ~20 pip infantry and Muslims get basically nothing.
IMO the units are less the issue than the stifling tech groups and trash religions.
I would also reduce troop regeneration dramatically for armies that are distant from their home population centers. If you take a 10k stack into China it should be viable for them to wear you down through repeated battles, instead of your armies popping back up to full strength after a month or two.
Arguably there should be some kind of "distant invasion" supply limit hit, too... have to think it's harder for Spanish armies to arrange to get supplies in the middle of China than it is when they're rampaging through the French countryside.
Forgive me, that was less a serious comment, and more a reference to the eloquent speech of Miss South Carolina.
Keep in mind that if you do shatter them, they have nowhere to go. I've insta-wiped quite a few unfortunate stacks that landed in Indian borders after shattering them once.
I play in Asia a fair amount...more so than Europe actually. I've seen Portugal settle for spices while I was still Chinese as Taungu...and have the threatened attitude
. Actually those little colonies can be great; the AI sucks with logistics so if you wait for it to get in another war and conquest CB that sucker you can sit on the war goal, stall the war to 10% while they fight elsewhere, and take the land for yourself...though often you'd just colonize it first.I generally just avoid military ideas and emphasize military advisors as the ones I take above +1 first. If you desconstruct + annex Ming or form Hindustan early enough you'll have 80+ troops and be able to afford advisors + rows of arty. Even without ideas the AI can't handle that, generally landing stacks of 20-40 on you where the combat width is in the 30's (IE they don't have a full row of infantry + cannon and you do)...and that's assuming you don't just load up on 40 heavies + whatever else for navies and blast them to smithereens at sea.
The real problem is Russia. In SP, you can mitigate this problem by getting access through Oirate Horde and walking a small stack up to where they colonize. Wait until their colony is ~950 in size then declare war and seize it ^_^. Even if you buy out after doing so or concede, you will keep that province as long as you don't cede it back. This will completely ruin Russian colonization. Warning them to make it seem harder for them to attack Uzbek/Sibir is a comical bonus. This way, you can work your way up to Siberia through Taiwan and colonize it yourself after getting the non-tropical spice islands.
Westernization is worth considering of course. Definitely you want to vassal/annex through Ming before doing it. India is iffy if you're Chinese tech...too often the minor cores are too small to bother with relations or they expire. Colonizing towards western nations sucks from a trade and "Asian colony vs off-continent African" perspective. If you're Chinese or Nomad tech, vassal/annex Jolof out of Mali or Aztec to get a core next to a western nation (with Aztec, you'll need to drop one colony outside the Mexico region). As Indian tech you can't vassal either of those, and are stuck trying to vassal/annex Morocco, Papal State, or anybody else who looks vulnerable (for example sometimes Crimea gets separated from Ottomans, or Livonian Order is bite-sized, look around and see who needs a loan
). With exploration ideas, you can basically take your pick where to hit though and it's much more efficient to conquer to get that core than colonizing all the way over there...colonies in the opposite direction are just too much more lucrative.Also note that if you colony-cut Muscovy, you can actually beat them while still Indian or Chinese tech until close to 1700s on #'s...but once you have Ming + whatever other big vassals you want to feed in Asia there's not much point in waiting; hordes and Muslims can be vassal'd even after westernization.
If you read my post I said before post-napoleonic era. After that quality really starts to matter and Europeans finally could field a large army via mobilization.
And speaking of Mongols, right Song got stomped by them yet it resisted for over 150 years. Did Europeans even put up a fight when the Mongols plough through central Europe?
You conveniently forgot about Manchu/Qing
The Europeans got stomped just as badly by the Mongols, but I don't get what you mean by resistance. After the initial push there were no subsequent Mongol invasions in Central Europe. Just occasional raids and plundering.
The Europeans got stomped just as badly by the Mongols, but I don't get what you mean by resistance. After the initial push there were no subsequent Mongol invasions in Central Europe. Just occasional raids and plundering.
Oh... last thing: utterly get rid of the whole "faction" system for China as it stands. It is stupid and makes China feeble in a way unlike any other nation in the world. Just. Get. Rid. Of. It.
The biggest problem for Paradox is that, unlike every other nation in the world, China is a game that's all about internal politics. The current "faction" system is a wretched, horrible simulacrum of internal politics that deserves to have a stake driven through it, then drowned under running water, its mouth stuffed with garlic, then decapitated, and, just to make sure, any remains then burned to ashes.
The biggest problem for Paradox is that, unlike every other nation in the world, China is a game that's all about internal politics. The current "faction" system is a wretched, horrible simulacrum of internal politics that deserves to have a stake driven through it, then drowned under running water, its mouth stuffed with garlic, then decapitated, and, just to make sure, any remains then burned to ashes.
It's actually quite strong, and has some hidden potential on top of that. The problem is the AI doesn't know how to use it, thus Ming outside human hands is a whipping boy and a ticket to vast wealth. But in human hands? Man, Ming can be ridiculous.
It can be. I found it loathsome. I tried to play. I think you might have actually answered a few questions I had about the system when I played it. I went back, tried again, and again to get the hang of it, and still found it loathesome. I didn't find it intriguing or pleasant. After beating my head against the wall, I just gave up. I've never gone back.
I found Navarre ironman to be a more enjoyable experience. >.>
I found Navarre ironman to be a more enjoyable experience. >.>
Additional colonist is only thing what Spain has best. Removing it would be the worst thing in game balance. Just program AI to colonise Philippines and Australia before Siberia.
We could said that in reality China with Kangxi Emperor from 1661 to 1722 was better than Russia and other asia country.
Russian–Manchu border conflicts
European couple, Kangxi period
In the 1650s, the Qing Empire engaged the Russian Empire in a series of border conflicts along the Amur River region, which concluded with victory for the Qing side. After the Siege of Albazin, he gained control of the area.
The Russians invaded the northern frontier again in the 1680s. After a series of battles and negotiations, both sides signed the Treaty of Nerchinsk in 1689, in which a border was fixed, and the Amur River valley given to the Qing Empire.
Do you thing China weak in technologies more than Russia that time?
Russian–Manchu border conflicts
European couple, Kangxi period
In the 1650s, the Qing Empire engaged the Russian Empire in a series of border conflicts along the Amur River region, which concluded with victory for the Qing side. After the Siege of Albazin, he gained control of the area.
The Russians invaded the northern frontier again in the 1680s. After a series of battles and negotiations, both sides signed the Treaty of Nerchinsk in 1689, in which a border was fixed, and the Amur River valley given to the Qing Empire.
Do you thing China weak in technologies more than Russia that time?
It can't be THAT bad. You just keep each faction invested similarly and nudge the one you want in power. Whatever cost you take in monarch points is made up for by the reductions you get from Eunich + Temple to the point where Ming comes out ahead despite sinking the MP on faction switch. Rather than being some kind of dreadful experience, it's actually a bit on the shallow side.
Hardly. They're also the strongest nation that can reach Americas at DIP 3 and have multiple scripted junk events to fire to give them even more power often.
There's nothing "balanced" about this game in the first place, and the trash nerfs to hordes and even nations like Nepal with its 4 base tax were far less excusable than poor little Spain "only" getting 3 colonists while being able to reach good land to colonize faster than anybody except Portugal.