Please, remove Austrian claims on Venice or, in alternative, buff Venice.

[Galaahd]

Am I the only one seeing Venice being totally rotflstomped by everyone in every game? I think the biggest issue, right now, is OP Austria HRE getting claims on it. What's the reasoning behind it? Historically, Austria didn't get any territory from Venice until very very very late in the timeframe (1797). Venice, despite being in decline, was still powerful enough to fight several wars in Italy and keep most of its territory in Italy until very late in the timeframe. Even the loss of territories in Greece was extremely slow: it took centuries to the Ottomans to conquer Cyprus and Crete, let alone the Dalmatian / Adriatic territories.

For instance, this was Venice in Italy / Adriatic in 1796, just before Napoleon happened and changed everything:

I don't know, I think that Venice right now is so incredibly underpowered that it's just too streamlined: it ends up losing everything in a few decades, always, unless a very able human plays it.

 

[Rabid]

Venice is pretty strong actually it just has the unfortunate disadvantage of being one of the main enemies of 2 of the strongest nations in the game (OE and Austria). Like most of the similar issues with ahistorically fast expansion it's going to have to wait for mods

 

[Andy_Dandy]

Yeah. You have to tackle it like the venetians did. Use diplomacy and smart alliances. Do not make them easier to play, so you end up needing no cunningness to survive/uphold status quo/survive.

But not only that. The other austrian neigbours would be in worse shape if Austria had less focus on Venice. So, dear OP, take a step back and think this over once more.

 

[Marco Dandolo]

Yeah. You have to tackle it like the venetians did. Use diplomacy and smart alliances. Do not make them easier to play, so you end up needing no cunning to survive/uphold status quo/survive.

A skilled player can do it for sure, but can the AI handle that?

 

[Hive]

Yeah. You have to tackle it like the venetians did. Use diplomacy and smart alliances. Do not make them easier to play, so you end up needing no cunning to survive/uphold status quo/survive.

It's a bit hard to use "diplomacy and smart alliances" when all your neighbors wants to conquer you from the beginning, though. And the fact that most allies will dishonor and alliance call if Austria or The Ottomans come running surely doesn't help.

 

[unperson]

A skilled player can do it for sure, but can the AI handle that?

We'll have to see it in the full game. I think its too early to draw big conclusions from 20 years of gameplay from the demo.

 

[unperson]

It's a bit hard to use "diplomacy and smart alliances" when all your neighbors wants to conquer you from the beginning, though. And the fact that most allies will dishonor and alliance call if Austria or The Ottomans come running surely doesn't help.

There are some other threads about Venice where people have managed to be successfully using smart diplomancy. I suggest to search the forums and see what strategy they used.

 

[D3m0]

In my second game Venice back stabbed Austria while they were at war with France and occupied the whole of mainland Austria. They ended up having to cede two provinces and over 500 ducats to Venice.

 

[gibbel]

In the 1492 start I got to play in the demo Venice was a challenge but not too hard as a player. I didn't play a lot of attention to it in the other games but I remember that they didn't fare too bad. In one game the swallowed up Milan, Ferrara and Mantua. In any I think the 1444 start could be a little easier because Austrian is a lot weaker without the Netherlands and the Ottomans are busy swallowing Albania, Serbia and Byzantium.

 

[Andy_Dandy]

...and losing a territory to Austria is not the end of Venice.

 

[Marco Dandolo]

We'll have to see it in the full game. I think its too early to draw big conclusions from 20 years of gameplay from the demo.

Well, judging by quill's game session with England, his video about the evolution of Europe until the 18th century, watching some development videos and also seeing Venice constantly losing its mainland after 20 years, I'm not sure if that will change that much.

 

[Belegurt]

i think venice only need to get a buff to its starting navy probably... i havent tried the demo, but historically what saved venice ass was its position as an impossible to conquer island... so THAT should be modded out

the land conquest from venice came thantks to its military genious, she won many wars that was bound to loose and not really cause of its economic power but for the ability of its generals and, since this is a what if game, the generals may be random generated.. but its strategical position should be impossible to invade unless u have one of the strongest navy in the game... wich austria shouldnt be able to build... never ever ever

 

[ahhheygao]

A skilled player can do it for sure, but can the AI handle that?

I've personally seen AI Venice survive in two games so far without my direct intervention, and I've seen at least one more screenshot from another player that also has Venice alive. In both my games, the AI Venice allied up with multiple factions right off the bat.

Then again, I've also seen Granada miraculously still alive in someone's screenshot.

 

[unmerged(66346)]

I have a hard time considering "smart diplomacy" a viable choice with any merchant republic. Its not like you can make royal marriage to "smartly" vassalize and annex neighbors or just use it as another grantee against a potential DOW.

 

[Ethanol]

Actually the only way to get past Austrian invasion is to offer a military alliance to austria before unpausing the game (they will accept since they haven't yet adopted a stance against you or declared any rivals) and then boost relations and you're good.

It's a bit gamey (like the rebel negotiations for Austria to prevent flanders from forming) but it's the only way to avoid being overrun (ottomans don't matter that much since you can easily give them corfu in a peace deal and at least it's less annoying then losing all of northern italy).

Keep good relations with Austria and mamelukes, declare ottomans as rival, hope they get into enough wars so that you survive the first ten years and by that time you should have enough income and galleys (hint : the first venetian NI (-33% galley cost) also reduces galley maintenance so I would definitely recommend it) to annoy them (block the bosphorus like the byz player did in the AAR, lose corfu and Dalmatia at most (and then let the hungarians/austria worry about them).

Of course the real problem is the inability of the AI to do anything like that.

 

[unmerged(755241)]

I disagree, almost took whole northern Italy towards naples.

 

[Calahir]

Austria is overpowered. People wanted nondeterministic 'sandbox' so PDS ridiculously buffed Habsburgs. If they had been modeled properly, which means at least 2 or 3 times less provinces in Austria and at least 2 or 3 times more in Bohemia and Hungary, Habsburgs wouldn't have been able to expand. People didn't want Austria inheriting Bohemia and Hungary so Austria shall conquer them. And everyone else too.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

It's not just Austrian claims, but how absurdly fast both players and the AI can spam claims in general.

 

[Belegurt]

It's not just Austrian claims, but how absurdly fast both players and the AI can spam claims in general.

common people get bored by playing grand strategy games and just want to play risk on a bigger map... paradox saw this opportunity and since eu 3 started to make its vanilla games more and more arcade... luckily they make theyr games highly moddable.
that doesnt make them less blamable (is that a word? dunno, i dont think so, but im not good at english anyway and i dont want to check the dictionary right now), but at least they give us an option to make theyr games more similar to what theyr original souls was

 

[WeissRaben]

Austria is overpowered. People wanted nondeterministic 'sandbox' so PDS ridiculously buffed Habsburgs. If they had been modeled properly, which means at least 2 or 3 times less provinces in Austria and at least 2 or 3 times more in Bohemia and Hungary, Habsburgs wouldn't have been able to expand. People didn't want Austria inheriting Bohemia and Hungary so Austria shall conquer them. And everyone else too.

Why should Austria inherit Bohemia and Hungary? It was a vague thing until a day before it actually happened - Lajos II died young. There had been a royal marriage that triggered the PU. That's it.

As for Venice...it's simply that "Our Claims to Northern Italy" has to go. In 1492, France has cores on Milan, and there is an Italian Wars DHE. That's all that is needed - and what is better is that it doesn't touch Venice. As it should be.