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Admiral Piett

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My Japan air power focus branch would look something like this (I slapped this together in Paint in 10 minutes OK...)
TBv8iDx.jpg


As for what "Army Aviation" and "Navy Aviation" would give you, I'm not sure. Perhaps both give you 1x -50% air doctrine boost and unlocks certain air power theorists that correspond to that service (IJAAS or IJNAS). Currently you can choose whoever to throw in there.

"Army Air Support" would give you 1x -50% boost for TAC and 1x -50% boost for CAS.

"Expand the Rikko Units" would give you 1x (maybe 2x?) -50% boost for NAV. Or maybe 1x -75% boost for NAV.

I don't know, I'm just throwing some stuff out there. Fine tuning (what a specific focus would give you) aside, this would certainly make far more sense than what we currently have.

I had a sleep. Here are a few revisions:

-I would add the word "Prioritise" to the front of both "Army Aviation" and "Navy Aviation" to better reflect history (and what I'm getting at). The historical path would be prioritising naval aviation. The IJAAS was always the junior service, and was slavishly subordinated to the IJA ground forces (doctrinally and even in terms of command structure). The IJAAS historically never had any serious independence push or loud and successful voices for more autonomy.
-I would change the name of "Unified Fighter Development" to "Unified Aircraft Development."

This air focus branch would better reward people for going down it. Right now the branch doesn't feel that good because it doesn't make much sense historically and it is mostly about removing a bad trait rather than giving you anything (other than two meh aircraft designers that should probably just be available at the start). As such Japan falls far behind what it did historically due to the way in-game research works, where you need to research every tech twice to get both the land-based and naval variants. With the tree above Japan would get the bump up to about 1940 tech (overcoming the flat penalty with boosts) before the player would need to grind for 1944 without boosts. This would encourage the player into a set of reasonably historical choices:

1. Spend extra PP and time removing the +10% research time penalty before researching higher techs, of course taking away from going down other parts of the focus tree earlier.
2. Just try to grind through the penalty and slowly research 1944 without boosts.
3. Stick with 1940 tech for the most part, relying on new variants to try and keep somewhat competitive.

All those would lead to a late-game USA advantage in aircraft tech without crippling Japan out of the gate (getting to 1940 tech).

I don't know if this is something @podcat would ever consider, but yeah. I kept the number of foci to the same number currently in the tree.
 

Daelyn75

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Or you can spend 100 days more on "Yamato" without this focus and then have - 50% for "Super Yamato", dont forget that you need a lot of time to build them and when you'll be at war with USA and GB you need a lot of ships to be build up to date or due to casualties.
As for the branch of aviation i like this idea, but Army branch (right side) need more content and Navy branch need a discount to a carrier at least.
Another problem: you have an alliance and it gives you nothing and if you capture China and Southern Area you have a lot of resources, but i noticed that nobody buying too much from you even if i change my economy to Export, in the beginng of 41 i got about 7-10 factories just oil and rubber (2 germany, 2 italy and another small countries), mb this tandencies will change later mid 44-45 but another problem you'll fight at that moment with all democrat countries.
I noticed this as well. Late game, my only customer is Manchukuo for steel, even though I share a border with Germany. Correction, Germany did trade for about 2 things of rubber, but they were still not going through due to the game seemingly calculating that they would require shipping via transport and not overland rail. So that had me a bit confused.
 

Meglok

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You simply can't research everything, even as major, you have to make choices.

Welcome to Japan. This is historical, Japan was far behind the West in many categories. If anything the game is generous.

The lack of a starting air doctrine however...... :(
 

Daelyn75

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I had a sleep. Here are a few revisions:

-I would add the word "Prioritise" to the front of both "Army Aviation" and "Navy Aviation" to better reflect history (and what I'm getting at). The historical path would be prioritising naval aviation. The IJAAS was always the junior service, and was slavishly subordinated to the IJA ground forces (doctrinally and even in terms of command structure). The IJAAS historically never had any serious independence push or loud and successful voices for more autonomy.
-I would change the name of "Unified Fighter Development" to "Unified Aircraft Development."

This air focus branch would better reward people for going down it. Right now the branch doesn't feel that good because it doesn't make much sense historically and it is mostly about removing a bad trait rather than giving you anything (other than two meh aircraft designers that should probably just be available at the start). As such Japan falls far behind what it did historically due to the way in-game research works, where you need to research every tech twice to get both the land-based and naval variants. With the tree above Japan would get the bump up to about 1940 tech (overcoming the flat penalty with boosts) before the player would need to grind for 1944 without boosts. This would encourage the player into a set of reasonably historical choices:

1. Spend extra PP and time removing the +10% research time penalty before researching higher techs, of course taking away from going down other parts of the focus tree earlier.
2. Just try to grind through the penalty and slowly research 1944 without boosts.
3. Stick with 1940 tech for the most part, relying on new variants to try and keep somewhat competitive.

All those would lead to a late-game USA advantage in aircraft tech without crippling Japan out of the gate (getting to 1940 tech).

I don't know if this is something @podcat would ever consider, but yeah. I kept the number of foci to the same number currently in the tree.
Like I wrote above, I would give them the range and agility bonus in one but give them a 20% durability malus for the focus as well as a less costly aircraft by say like 10% to produce. I think that Unified aircraft development should unlock a decision that would allow you to remove these bonuses and maluses, and revert to more of a western style aircraft.

I don't disagree with anything you are saying however.
 
Last edited:

Daelyn75

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Welcome to Japan. This is historical, Japan was far behind the West in many categories. If anything the game is generous.

The lack of a starting air doctrine however...... :(
When every nation cannot reach their historical targets, then we have something wrong with the days required to research everything.
 

Synicus

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Keep in mind that the allies didn't focus on Japan till the fall of Berlin, unlike in game 1940-1941 :rolleyes:
 

Meglok

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When every nation cannot reach their historical targets, then we have something wrong with the days required to research everything.

There is no law that says everything in HOI4 has to exactly match history. The Allies had a huge tech advantage over the Axis in general and it led to a crushing defeat. Why should we be forced to repeat that?

A game has to be balanced where the odds of winning are closer to 50-50, not 99-1.
 

Daelyn75

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There is no law that says everything in HOI4 has to exactly match history. The Allies had a huge tech advantage over the Axis in general and it led to a crushing defeat. Why should we be forced to repeat that?

A game has to be balanced where the odds of winning are closer to 50-50, not 99-1.
Care to explain where they had a huge tech advantage?

Nuclear is the only area that wasn't evened up during the war, between Germany, Japan, compared to the US.

Rocketry is where the allies didn't match up to Germany during the war.

Correction, the allies had a huge production and resource advantage. Fixed for you.
 

Demosthenest

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The US overpowered? If anything it's the most underpowered nation in the entire game. US can't even catch up to German tank production, German level of total production, German army...
 

Daelyn75

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The US overpowered? If anything it's the most underpowered nation in the entire game. US can't even catch up to German tank production, German level of total production, German army...
With 1.5 I've read that Germany is crazy at production with the MEFO bills. I had hoped that they would slightly nerf Germany's industry at the start of the game to offset it. Giving them their old starting industry, even with toned down MEFO bills, that's just adding to their industry.

Sounds like some more balance is needed.
 

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There is no law that says everything in HOI4 has to exactly match history. The Allies had a huge tech advantage over the Axis in general and it led to a crushing defeat. Why should we be forced to repeat that?

A game has to be balanced where the odds of winning are closer to 50-50, not 99-1.
You cant make game balanced to 50/50, you dont start with same amount of territory or the same amount of factories and etc, as for me the main purpose to make game fun with a different choices how to play and thats why you now have ahistorical focuses and how after that you can make them 50/50? PDX just need to teach the AI how to make invasions properly and then they can make a difference, you can saw it when Spain is joining commintern and Germany fought on two fronts (with USSR and Spain with Allies) and soon collapsed.
I dont play much with another nations, but for Axis Japan its so boring with this focus tree.
 

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With 1.5 I've read that Germany is crazy at production with the MEFO bills. I had hoped that they would slightly nerf Germany's industry at the start of the game to offset it. Giving them their old starting industry, even with toned down MEFO bills, that's just adding to their industry.
You know what happens now? Germany runs out of building space by early 39... It's ridiculous and is what should be fixed, not US being OP.
 

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You know what happens now? Germany runs out of building space by early 39... It's ridiculous and is what should be fixed, not US being OP.
I read that one too. That just shouldn't happen. I hoped 1.5.1 would address that.
 

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You know what happens now? Germany runs out of building space by early 39... It's ridiculous and is what should be fixed, not US being OP.
Where did you see that smb said that US is OP, mb OP compared to Japan? Devs confirmed that they will fix MEFO, as for me its easy to fix, dont see what to discuss with MEFO.
What do you think about Japan in this patch? Did you play as Japan?
 

Daelyn75

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Where did you see that smb said that US is OP, mb OP compared to Japan? Devs confirmed that they will fix MEFO, as for me its easy to fix, dont see what to discuss with MEFO.
What do you think about Japan in this patch? Did you play as Japan?
I read that they were going to tone it down, but unless they reduce Germany's starting industry MEFO bills are just adding to an already very powerful Germany, making them supercharged.

This is all digression though. The focus of this thread was on reducing tech times.
 

Pepperoner

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I noticed this as well. Late game, my only customer is Manchukuo for steel, even though I share a border with Germany. Correction, Germany did trade for about 2 things of rubber, but they were still not going through due to the game seemingly calculating that they would require shipping via transport and not overland rail. So that had me a bit confused.
You have 2 focuses (Co-Prosperity and Mutual guaranties) with almost zero effect in single player and fascist nation refuses to enter even if i improve relations with them in about year or mb more. Mutual guaranties dont work in single player at all because Germany declares war first)
You have a lot of resources and again nobody want to buy them, 5-10 factories in middle game is almost nothing. Mb they are building refineries and now they dont need so much rubber and oil?
 

Daelyn75

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You have 2 focuses (Co-Prosperity and Mutual guaranties) with almost zero effect in single player and fascist nation refuses to enter even if i improve relations with them in about year or mb more. Mutual guaranties dont work in single player at all because Germany declares war first)
You have a lot of resources and again nobody want to buy them, 5-10 factories in middle game is almost nothing. Mb they are building refineries and now they dont need so much rubber and oil?
Agreed. Now with all these resources and no one buys them also hurts Japan's industry.
 

Meglok

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Care to explain where they had a huge tech advantage?

Naval tech, carrier aircraft, radar, proximity fuses, propeller aircraft in general, strategic bombers, armor, small arms, logistics, encryption/decryption, ......

I will concede that in some of these areas Germany did equal or even surpass the Allies. But Germany suffered from management, coordination, and prioritization issues that prevented most if not all of her tech advances from affecting the battlefield. Pure research is worthless unless you can ally it. Most importantly Germany did a poor job of sharing research work with her "allies". The Allies did a good job of coordination research and sharing important tech. The Axis failed abjectly at this mainly because the Axis wasn't an alliance, it was a group that had common enemies.

And Germany was not the entire Axis. Italy, Japan, and the rest of the Axis minor allies lagged far behind the Allies. Italy was a basket case in almost all areas except aircraft. Japan started the war with a small lead in ship, torpedo, and naval aircraft tech, but was far behind in armor, logistics, artillery, and small arms.

The biggest issue is the Western Allies had a much larger pool of scientists and research facilities than the Axis. If anything the USA should have around 7 slots to represent it's research capabilities.
 

Daelyn75

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Naval tech, carrier aircraft, radar, proximity fuses, propeller aircraft in general, strategic bombers, armor, small arms, logistics, encryption/decryption, ......

I will concede that in some of these areas Germany did equal or even surpass the Allies. But Germany suffered from management, coordination, and prioritization issues that prevented most if not all of her tech advances from affecting the battlefield. Pure research is worthless unless you can ally it. Most importantly Germany did a poor job of sharing research work with her "allies". The Allies did a good job of coordination research and sharing important tech. The Axis failed abjectly at this mainly because the Axis wasn't an alliance, it was a group that had common enemies.

And Germany was not the entire Axis. Italy, Japan, and the rest of the Axis minor allies lagged far behind the Allies. Italy was a basket case in almost all areas except aircraft. Japan started the war with a small lead in ship, torpedo, and naval aircraft tech, but was far behind in armor, logistics, artillery, and small arms.

The biggest issue is the Western Allies had a much larger pool of scientists and research facilities than the Axis. If anything the USA should have around 7 slots to represent it's research capabilities.
No where were the Allies in a huge tech advantage over the Axis for the duration of the war. Coordination was something the allies did better, but that was about it. I'm talking about the best of the Allies vrs the best of the Axis. The Soviet Union was far behind in many techs but I wouldn't count that against them.

There was no huge difference in techs. What one area one side had, the other could have matched it in a few years. The US was way behind all the majors in jet fighter technology but closed the gap by the late 40s.

I am not advocating for both sides to be completely equal, and some nations should be behind in some areas, but when no nation can keep up to historical levels that they did in real life, then there are issues with research taking too long. That was the point of the entire thread, and why I created it. In past HOI games they added in a 10% per year reduction for previous years. I'd like to see a return to that.
 

RikiBreeiki

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USA is unrealisticaly strong before they join war , and unrealisticaly weak aftewards, irl they were even out produced in navy in terms of tonnage by japan between 36-41 , USA production reached it's peak in all fields just in a year after joining the war except Planes due to temporarily lack of rubber

https://ww2-weapons.com/u-s-arms-production/

in my opinion it was a huge mistake not also reworking USA but instead focusing on germany focus tree overhaul+ unhistorical paths