Please put in tech research bonuses for years gone by!

[Daelyn75]

The biggest issue with Japanese research is aircraft. The national spirit slowing it down is cool and all, but the focuses in the air power branch are totally out to lunch. Why do we have a strategic bomber focus (lawl) and nothing for NAVs? The establishment of the Rikko units was a huge deal. Certainly one of the most important features of the Imperial Japanese Navy Air Service, which had a larger land-based component than it did naval. The arbitrary distinction between "range" and "agility" is also bizarre. It would have made more sense to have an "army aviation" and "navy aviation" choice instead.

Funny, I was thinking the exact same thing. I think that they should get ranged/agility but a penalty to durability at the same time, which would better match up to and including the 1940s tech, but by 1944 Japan had switched gears to focus on durability and firepower.

Maybe give the player a choice if they want to keep that beyond 1940 or match the western air forces.

 

[Secret Master]

I've read this many times, even coming from Secret Master, that it's just not possible to keep tech up to historical levels for the major nations.

I'd like to point out that Secret Master has not done this test with the new "scientist refuge" decisions the US and UK get in WtT. And extra 6% to research speed might make a huge difference by 1945.

I also haven't tried scamming production licenses like a boss recently. Coupled with new discounts the US gets, you might be able to do it with just the US. Maybe. I don't know for certain.

• +0.0001 research bonus for each piece of captured land equipment.

• +0.001 research bounus (one-tenth of one percent) for each enemy aircraft shot down over friendly (your) territory.

 

[caedussl]

As my avatar suggests, I play Japan often. 1939-1940 is when Japan really starts to fall behind if your trying to research everything, just too many techs and long doctrines gum it all up. If you neglect doctrines, tanks and anti-tank/AA you can keep up (pre cornflakes). With cornflakes, it's hard to even touch equipment and Manchurian build up branches in a timely manor, leaving you even further behind than before. 8 techs just for modern aircraft in 1940 takes nearly a year by itself, then ya get slammed by 1941 production and so on...

I don't think Trench warfare even suits Japan, Mass assault though looks like it was made with Japan in mind! and they should also start with an air doctrine. IMO

I love Cornflakes so far, all problems aside. I think Japan should have to make some sacrifices to keep up, being a newly developed major power.

Focus trees are growing so much, that a more simple solution might be to simply reduce the base 70 days per focus to 60 days.
(Decisions are also eating up tons of power points, lower cost ones seem fine but 150-200 for a decision seems a bit over priced).

Keep up the good work PDX!

Some countries could definitely do with having their focuses reduced in time. Germany has a few 35 day focuses in the ahistorical branch, but one of them (rebuild the nation), which increases repair speed, is probably irrelevant for the "lore" purposes laid out in the focus, that is to repair the nation after the civil war.

Japan should get a few 35 day focuses, or more research bonuses in their tree. Not many other countries need to research as many things as they do.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You simply can't research everything, even as major, you have to make choices.

With 5 slots you easily can, just not in a relevant timeframe to use it all.

This discussion seems somewhat steered by the split of having tech cost reduction focuses vs not. With engineering techs and advisers in play Japan gets -25% tech cost even with militarism, before any boosts from license or faction. On 5 slots By 47 you can easily max out nukes, most of engineering/rocket, industry, infantry equipment, a tank path, a naval unit, two plane paths, at least one path on all 3 of air/land/naval doctrine, and still have some slots/time left over (arty, another doctrine branch or naval unit, whatever).

But people don't care about '48, they care about what you're packing in '39 and the ensuing few years. I'm not convinced Japan is in too bad of a place, but maybe someone can dig up reasoning that shows it is.

 

[Pepperoner]

I played for Japan almost every day after Cornflake and i can say that focus tree causes mixed feelings (I do not consider myself a great player but I think that many did not like the same as me.). I played only through "Purge the Kodoha Faction".

Lets start from the facts i dont like in focus tree for Japan:
- First focus "Purge Kodoha" - i dont understand it at all, at the start you have 95% stability and by completing this focus you'll gain +10%, and actually thats +5% till you start some wars and then it can be sort of usefull. (best deal ever)
- Manchurian project - it will be usefull if you're playing Man and Japan building your land and then you stab them in the back Or you are from that region (as i want to play for Zaporozhian Sich in EU4 and prove that cossacks is Strong, but it did not work out) and want to build infrastructure and some factories because your government cant do that
- Army expansion Law (right branch) - focuses like "Army expansion (Chief of army - 15% drilling time)" and "Supremacy of will (nice bonuses to army, but left branch is more viable due to problems with time of researching" as for me is a very weak, in left branch 1x -50% to weapons (you can learn this and with right branch, then you need to learn this general that i thin a waste of time), -5% to weapon and armor research, 2x -50% to artillery and 1x - 50% to armor research time. I'd like to hear why smb prefer right side of this branch.
- Fighters (left branch) - focuses like "Range" (we cant pick 2 design company, its useless, if you dont pick agility you cant get Zero for free, and as for me its almost life) and "Stratigic Bomber Effort" (it goes without saying - OMG, as smb said above better make Army vs Naval branches)
- New Naval Estimates (right branch) - as Japan you started with a good navy and from the beginning if you like battle ships you can learn first for 200 days (1 research slot) and then take "New Naval Estimates" and you'll have -50% for second and last "Super Yamato" and if you'll go to right branch you'll get -75% and without buffs to you carriers and ZERO insta research. Smb testing how effective strategy with Battleships?
- Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere - Mb this is very historical, but what it gives to Japan (Nobody except that poor Siam (by completing focus) and my subjects joined in 3-4 years? How many Japan gets from this (decreasing research time)? Can smb explain because i dont get it.
- Absence of decreasing carrier research and a general research technology tendency, soon i'll fight only with cavalry and CAS on sea

Now what i like:
- New mechanics if they work correctly (border conflicts, Marco polo incident, Agility focus).
- Resource Development focuses and events
- New ship with torpedo and increase quality of torpedoes
- Technology that were alredy in last patch (Kamikaze strike, Yokosuka Okha)

I like overall WTT, that patch brought a low of new stuff and mechanics and i hope smth will change in next patches.
I'd like to see what percentage of Japan players picked those decisions that i dont like and mb i need to retire.

 

[Daelyn75]

With 5 slots you easily can, just not in a relevant timeframe to use it all.

This discussion seems somewhat steered by the split of having tech cost reduction focuses vs not. With engineering techs and advisers in play Japan gets -25% tech cost even with militarism, before any boosts from license or faction. On 5 slots By 47 you can easily max out nukes, most of engineering/rocket, industry, infantry equipment, a tank path, a naval unit, two plane paths, at least one path on all 3 of air/land/naval doctrine, and still have some slots/time left over (arty, another doctrine branch or naval unit, whatever).

But people don't care about '48, they care about what you're packing in '39 and the ensuing few years. I'm not convinced Japan is in too bad of a place, but maybe someone can dig up reasoning that shows it is.

Where do you find the -25%? I have seen only up -16% in a normal play through. You start with +4 penalty (+5 Militarism, -1 limited trade) and with the computer techs, and the first nuclear you get up to -16%. I don't see where this engineering bonus comes from.

Did I miss something in the patch notes and that are not listed in the game?

 

[adam_grif]

Thematically, I think Land/Navy/Air XP should be the resource you spend to improve doctrines, and the methods of generating those resources should be made more readily available. They wouldn't take up regular research slots ideally. They wouldn't really be in the "Tech Tree" per se, at least not ordinarily.

Yes it would require a rebalance but I think it makes a fair bit of sense.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Where do you find the -25%? I have seen only up -16% in a normal play through. You start with +4 penalty (+5 Militarism, -1 limited trade) and with the computer techs, and the first nuclear you get up to -16%. I don't see where this engineering bonus comes from.

Did I miss something in the patch notes and that are not listed in the game?

Advisers are usually 10%, though you get some others...does Japan not have them now?

 

[Pepperoner]

Advisers are usually 10%, though you get some others...does Japan not have them now?

only doctrines and 250pp, but as for me thats not an option, try to pick Yamashita -10% battleplan doctrine and try from the beginning of the game learn at least half, then switch for another 250pp to Yamamoto and another half, at least carriers, and then to Tokugawa -10% to Air doctrines and at least half too, then you can post here your impressions.
Only naval doctrines have x4 - 50% as i can remember and you can get army 1x -50% with USSR conflict

 

[Daelyn75]

Advisers are usually 10%, though you get some others...does Japan not have them now?

Keep in mind that with all of the political influence costs, you don't get your advisors that quickly unless you want to languish in China, or not some of the other things you can now purchase to help with industry and resources such as the choices between navy and army.

For the first time for me, I think it wasn't until 1942 that I filled out all of my advisor slots.

 

[Admiral Piett]

My Japan air power focus branch would look something like this (I slapped this together in Paint in 10 minutes OK...)

As for what "Army Aviation" and "Navy Aviation" would give you, I'm not sure. Perhaps both give you 1x -50% air doctrine boost and unlocks certain air power theorists that correspond to that service (IJAAS or IJNAS). Currently you can choose whoever to throw in there.

"Army Air Support" would give you 1x -50% boost for TAC and 1x -50% boost for CAS.

"Expand the Rikko Units" would give you 1x (maybe 2x?) -50% boost for NAV. Or maybe 1x -75% boost for NAV.

I don't know, I'm just throwing some stuff out there. Fine tuning (what a specific focus would give you) aside, this would certainly make far more sense than what we currently have.

 

[Daelyn75]

My Japan air power focus branch would look something like this (I slapped this together in Paint in 10 minutes OK...)

As for what "Army Aviation" and "Navy Aviation" would give you, I'm not sure. Perhaps both give you 1x -50% air doctrine boost and unlocks certain air power theorists that correspond to that service (IJAAS or IJNAS). Currently you can choose whoever to throw in there.

"Army Air Support" would give you 1x -50% boost for TAC and 1x -50% boost for CAS.

"Expand the Rikko Units" would give you 1x (maybe 2x?) -50% boost for NAV. Or maybe 1x -75% boost for NAV.

I don't know, I'm just throwing some stuff out there. Fine tuning (what a specific focus would give you) aside, this would certainly make far more sense than what we currently have.

It looks good to me. What I didn't like to see was that there was also either super heavy battleships or carriers, but somehow I picked up a 50% discount on researching the super heavy battlieship Yamato class when I went with the carriers.

Call me confused. I don't think those should be either or, I think both should be enabled, as historically Japan did both.

 

[Admiral Piett]

It looks good to me. What I didn't like to see was that there was also either super heavy battleships or carriers, but somehow I picked up a 50% discount on researching the super heavy battlieship Yamato class when I went with the carriers.

Call me confused. I don't think those should be either or, I think both should be enabled, as historically Japan did both.

Yeah, I was confused too at first. You actually get a -50% boost to SHBB tech from the very first naval focus. I really like that, since it means you can get Yamato AND go full carrier after.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Keep in mind that with all of the political influence costs, you don't get your advisors that quickly unless you want to languish in China, or not some of the other things you can now purchase to help with industry and resources such as the choices between navy and army.

For the first time for me, I think it wasn't until 1942 that I filled out all of my advisor slots.

To be fair I did say that this by end-game, not during the important timeframe. By '47 you can stack up your advisers to max easily. Japan seems to be pushed backwards intentionally prior to that.

 

[Pepperoner]

It looks good to me. What I didn't like to see was that there was also either super heavy battleships or carriers, but somehow I picked up a 50% discount on researching the super heavy battlieship Yamato class when I went with the carriers.

Call me confused. I don't think those should be either or, I think both should be enabled, as historically Japan did both.

Or you can spend 100 days more on "Yamato" without this focus and then have - 50% for "Super Yamato", dont forget that you need a lot of time to build them and when you'll be at war with USA and GB you need a lot of ships to be build up to date or due to casualties.
As for the branch of aviation i like this idea, but Army branch (right side) need more content and Navy branch need a discount to a carrier at least.
Another problem: you have an alliance and it gives you nothing and if you capture China and Southern Area you have a lot of resources, but i noticed that nobody buying too much from you even if i change my economy to Export, in the beginng of 41 i got about 7-10 factories just oil and rubber (2 germany, 2 italy and another small countries), mb this tandencies will change later mid 44-45 but another problem you'll fight at that moment with all democrat countries.

 

[Pepperoner]

Thematically, I think Land/Navy/Air XP should be the resource you spend to improve doctrines, and the methods of generating those resources should be made more readily available. They wouldn't take up regular research slots ideally. They wouldn't really be in the "Tech Tree" per se, at least not ordinarily.

Yes it would require a rebalance but I think it makes a fair bit of sense.

It will make sense if you can farm navy xp, because now your navy just chilling in ports and cant be drilled. Air xp you can farm at least in Spain war by volunteers.

 

[RikiBreeiki]

it takes 10 years to do meaningufl part of focus tree.. Half of japanese focus tree is just jokes like +75% super heavy Battleship research bonus,

Extremley useless focuses such as but not limited to " Supremacy Of Technology,Bicycle Battalions , The Zero ( it takes billion years to reach that focus when you have to do industry focuses first...) Alliance With Siam ( you cant even puppet them ,you cant make airfields in siam, its just a joke ), Expand the SNLF( Yeay lets do that focus when we need 210 days worth extra focuses to attack china ) Supremacy Of Battle Fleet, The Japanese Settlement, Manchurian railways , Fortify Manchuria Border , The Manchurian Project , Sign the Tripatite Pact , Liatong Confrence, GReater Asian Co Prosperity Sphere , Strike South Doctrine Alliance with siam, Non Aggression pact with Soviet Union Bypass or push philipines, oh why are we even doign all these? solely because to get Tora,Tora,Tora spirit for 180 days at the far end that you get from doing Strike on the Southern Reseource Focus, you also have debuffs like militarism , and seperated fighter program and you got to do more even more useless crap like Unified Fighter program to get rid of +10% plane research time debuff, you wanna do fighter focus before 1939? you cant you will have no industry you will have no extra research slot, you prob wont even do marco polo, it is just horrible

Multiplayer japan is a total joke, basicaly you make air cas and kill china and then you use your op farmed land army leaders to do stuff other ppl cant do with your -75% cost for land stand , your navy is crap , your production-industry-reserach-doctrines , everything is crap and terrible , did i say that you dont even have a single carrier research bonus ? you know what that would be no issue if istarted with no carrier 2 researched but i had 95% research bonus for carrier 2 so i can atleast research it with pacific fleet designer...

Focus Tree obivously have not been really play tested, and made for people who play till 1947 considering how long it takes to do meaningful focuses...

Japan is absolutely unplayable in multiplayer in non low quality games, country is all about memes like kamikaze striking in british channel farming, level 8 leaders with op cavalry-infantry trait stacking that is made of mixture of all tanks (light,medium,heavy) so that divison is considered as still cavalry and get both cavalry-infantry traits, last standing forever with your -75% cost for last stand, except most of these are banned anyway multiplayer enviroment...

Japan is made with absolutely 0 thinking for a balanced game and 100% based on solely roleplaying and memes...

Air? Research is absolutely horrible you got a focus that gives you zeros but you got to do billion focuses to even attack allies, And everyone that makes navy will have carrier fighter II anyway, it is just a joke it is made so that japan can not manually research anything properly and have to do milliion useless stuff like carrier warfare experiments and first air fleet, Do paradox know what does Soriet EFficency +20% do ? lemme tell you , it does nothing useful if your enemy is a human in multiplayer and have enough carriers + upgraded carrier fighter2s to kill all your planes, it simply gives bombing efficency , which is absolutely useless,



Land Army? It is super good if it is game that allows kamikazes, then you can fully ignore naval doctrine and just afk kamikaze with fighters because japan basicaly have the best Generals in the game, and best upgraded tanks due to how much xp they get, if it is not? you will get attacked by a usa with 20 carriers doomstacked ( when you have 1800 planes on air you just auto deorg enemy ships even after so claimed ships now fight to death if they are on no retreat) then he will convoy raid you to death in 3 months and then you can just leave from the game..



Navy? You should totally ignore navy in multiplayer, if rules allow kamiakze u can make/spam carriers to kamikaze everywhere, if rules dont allow you to you can just ignore navy since usa is a country with -40% base research time, can always have double your docks before war starts and for you to win navy againist him, he needs to be simply bad- not know vanilla navla warfare ( afk carrier spamming)

Did i tell you that you got no PP for anything? because you need to use 800 on decisions and everything costs more

if you have equal number of fighters againsit usa you will get 1--1.4 trade ratios againist usa in air combat , but in a normal game he will have more, your fighters will trade at 1 to 1 and you will run out fighters in combat before he does due to his superiror naval and land industry always/.

 

[Pepperoner]

it takes 10 years to do meaningufl part of focus tree.. Half of japanese focus tree is just jokes like +75% super heavy Battleship research bonus,

Extremley useless focuses such as but not limited to " Supremacy Of Technology,Bicycle Battalions , The Zero ( it takes billion years to reach that focus when you have to do industry focuses first...) Alliance With Siam ( you cant even puppet them ,you cant make airfields in siam, its just a joke ), Expand the SNLF( Yeay lets do that focus when we need 210 days worth extra focuses to attack china ) Supremacy Of Battle Fleet, The Japanese Settlement, Manchurian railways , Fortify Manchuria Border , The Manchurian Project , Sign the Tripatite Pact , Liatong Confrence, GReater Asian Co Prosperity Sphere , Strike South Doctrine Alliance with siam, Non Aggression pact with Soviet Union Bypass or push philipines, oh why are we even doign all these? solely because to get Tora,Tora,Tora spirit for 180 days at the far end that you get from doing Strike on the Southern Reseource Focus, you also have debuffs like militarism , and seperated fighter program and you got to do more even more useless crap like Unified Fighter program to get rid of +10% plane research time debuff, you wanna do fighter focus before 1939? you cant you will have no industry you will have no extra research slot, you prob wont even do marco polo, it is just horrible

Multiplayer japan is a total joke, basicaly you make air cas and kill china and then you use your op farmed land army leaders to do stuff other ppl cant do with your -75% cost for land stand , your navy is crap , your production-industry-reserach-doctrines , everything is crap and terrible , did i say that you dont even have a single carrier research bonus ? you know what that would be no issue if istarted with no carrier 2 researched but i had 95% research bonus for carrier 2 so i can atleast research it with pacific fleet designer...

Focus Tree obivously have not been really play tested, and made for people who play till 1947 considering how long it takes to do meaningful focuses...

Japan is absolutely unplayable in multiplayer in non low quality games, country is all about memes like kamikaze striking in british channel farming, level 8 leaders with op cavalry-infantry trait stacking that is made of mixture of all tanks (light,medium,heavy) so that divison is considered as still cavalry and get both cavalry-infantry traits, last standing forever with your -75% cost for last stand, except most of these are banned anyway multiplayer enviroment...

Japan is made with absolutely 0 thinking for a balanced game and 100% based on solely roleplaying and memes...

Air? Research is absolutely horrible you got a focus that gives you zeros but you got to do billion focuses to even attack allies, And everyone that makes navy will have carrier fighter II anyway, it is just a joke it is made so that japan can not manually research anything properly and have to do milliion useless stuff like carrier warfare experiments and first air fleet, Do paradox know what does Soriet EFficency +20% do ? lemme tell you , it does nothing useful if your enemy is a human in multiplayer and have enough carriers + upgraded carrier fighter2s to kill all your planes, it simply gives bombing efficency , which is absolutely useless,



Land Army? It is good if it is game that allows kamikazes, then you can fully ignore naval doctrine and just afk kamikaze with fighters because japan basicaly have the best Generals in the game, and best upgraded tanks due to how much xp they get, if it is not? you will get attacked by a usa with 20 carriers doomstacked ( when you have 1800 planes on air you just auto deorg enemy ships even after so claimed ships now fight to death if they are on no retreat) then he will convoy raid you to death in 3 months and then you can just leave from the game..



Navy? You should totally ignore navy in multiplayer, if rules allow kamiakze u can make/spam carriers to kamikaze everywhere, if rules dont allow you to you can just ignore navy since usa is a country with -40% base research time, can always have double your docks before war starts and for you to win navy againist him, he needs to be simply bad- not know vanilla navla warfare ( afk carrier spamming)

Did i tell you that you got no PP for anything? because you need to use 800 on decisions and everything costs more

if you have equal number of fighters againsit usa you will get 1--1.4 trade ratios againist usa in air combat , but in a normal game he will have more, your fighters will trade at 1 to 1 and you will run out fighters in combat before he does due to his superiroty naval and land industry always/.

Agree with you and I'd like to hear by devs what is the point to make Japan like third world country or it was downgrade to China to make it more intresting in Asia.

 

[Gort11]

Japan was inferior to America in both technology and industrial capacity during this time period. If they were equal to the USA in these fields the Axis would never lose the war.

 

[Pepperoner]

Japan was inferior to America in both technology and industrial capacity during this time period. If they were equal to the USA in these fields the Axis would never lose the war.

Ok, thats explained a lot, i thought i played in a game that suppose to have balance, but now i must suffer by your reasoning.
Industrial capacity mb, but not so sure about technology in 41-43.