Please, please revisit the major's focus trees before adding any more new ones

[Khevenhuller]

So, if it is PDX strategy, where is madness, I came for? Where is Reichstag, blown up with Hitler and most of his supporters, by german communists? Where is american fascism as a last hope to stop communist influence? Where is national uprisings wave, leading to fall of soviet internationalism and rise of hardcore russian nationalism? Where is anti-bolshevik crusade of all "free world" where both democratic and fascist nations as a united front strike Soviet Union in a hope to finally solve "russian question"?

In the realm of fantasy and Soviet paranoia. Lenin pointed out that the German Communists would storm the railway stations, as long as they could buy platform tickets first. I am not sure where all these hardcore Russian nationalists would come from in the thirties.

There are plenty of historical options to explore without going for the impossible. Yugoslavia could have gone either way. Italy could easily have remained neutral. The British and French could have gone further after the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact than simply sending aid to Finland: bombing Russian oilfields from the Caucasus was planned using Blenheims. Greece was more fascist-aligned and would probably have been a pro-German neutral had Musso not decided to petulantly invade them. South Africa went to war in 1939 by one vote, and even then limited its role to Africa. What if the USA does not embargo Japan? The only cause for war against the west by Japan was the looming shortage of oil and steel they faced as a result.

Admittedly, this game won't even allow you as a player to undertake things that actually did happen. Try undertaking a U-Boat campaign against the UK and see how far you get, or try buying aircraft from the USA if you are playing France or the UK in 1938, or at any time. If they cannot get the things that did happen sorted, you wonder how much internal consistency PDX is capable of when it comes to even plausible alternatives.

K

 

[Broletariat90]

In the realm of fantasy and Soviet paranoia. Lenin pointed out that the German Communists would storm the railway stations, as long as they could buy platform tickets first. I am not sure where all these hardcore Russian nationalists would come from in the thirties.

All the Russian nationalist's who weren't dead in the ground were in Paris, New York or London. So yeah pretty ridiculous concept that they could just overthrow Stalin in 1936 or 1937 and change the direction of the country by 1940.

 

[redrum68]

So the problem with revisiting all the majors before adding NF trees for minors is the DLC policy. If they decided to redo say the 3 major Axis power NF trees and sell that as the next DLC instead of the Axis minors people would be up in arms that it should have just been done in the base game since they've already been implemented. Given the current DLC policy, they kind of have to focus on NF trees for nations they haven't implemented to focus on selling 'new content' in the DLCs.

 

[Bolshevik-]

I don't understand how New Zealand seems to have a larger and more complex focus tree than Germany. Just think about it. Germany is the most important country in the game with New Zealand being amongst the least important. Usually by 1940 I'v gotten everything I need from the German focus tree and its more beneficial to get the air production reduction focus for the rest of the game than waste time with dumb focuses like anti soviet pact and anti comintern pact in an attempt to improve relations with Estonia.

 

[Sidetrack Nick]

Agree. All PDX games are well known because they are pretty "sandboxy" and only starting conditions can be considered to be more or less "historical".
Conqured world as one on South American nations in EU4? Possible. Nation of horses in CK2? Not a problem.

So, if it is PDX strategy, where is madness, I came for? Where is Reichstag, blown up with Hitler and most of his supporters, by german communists? Where is american fascism as a last hope to stop communist influence? Where is national uprisings wave, leading to fall of soviet internationalism and rise of hardcore russian nationalism? Where is anti-bolshevik crusade of all "free world" where both democratic and fascist nations as a united front strike Soviet Union in a hope to finally solve "russian question"?

What you're talking about are historical what-if's based upon historic actualities, theories, or other evidence. These would be more specific than what I'm talking about.

I'm suggesting every nation get the same focus tree, which would have several paths to go down, that would take until 1950 to totally complete. There would be no 'guarantee' of anyone, or claims on neighbors lands, or events that would sway overall opinion. I'm talking true sandbox.

I recently started a game using the monarchy mod, where I forced every nation that could (almost all European) via PP cheats to install a monarchy government. What happened was the creation of the Italian alliance, French alliance, along with the usual three alliances. Unfortunately, the countries were still governed by the national foci they had, even though historical focuses was turned off. With a generic focus tree, the variations would be endless. No Anschluss, no Bombing of Nanjing, no Gandhi, no M-R pact, no Ethiopia. While every nation would have the option to create a faction somewhere on their focus tree, and so on, no factions would be set in stone (not sure how I feel about the commonwealth, as their economies are necessarily linked).

The exceptions to the rule regarding national foci is the possible having to create some sort of reason for a nation to go to war or to ally in the first place. There could be nation-groups created by PGI based upon religion, ethnic/linguistic groups, politics, or mutual regional defense/interest. Those could be paths built into the foci that would be inserted into the appropriate countries. Examples:

Baltic-Scandinavian Alliance, Teutonic/Germanic Alliance, Slavic Alliance, Arabic Alliance, Romance (France/Italy/Spain/Portugese Alliance), Commonwealth, World Communist Pact, Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, South Pacific Pact (Australia/New Zealand/Indonesia/Pacific Rim), North America Pact, South American Communist/Democrat/Royal/Fascist Pacts, African Tribal Free People's Pact (revolutions in Africa), Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Pagan pacts.

I would advocate a reworking of the ideologies too to make them all attractive instead of just fascism for the freedom it gives (ironic, right? lol). Totalitarian, Communist, Republic, Royal/Monarchist/Paternal Autocrat, True Democracy/Anarchy, Relgious oligarchy.

I'd love to work on such a project!

 

[Broletariat90]

What you're talking about are historical what-if's based upon historic actualities, theories, or other evidence. These would be more specific than what I'm talking about.

I'm suggesting every nation get the same focus tree, which would have several paths to go down, that would take until 1950 to totally complete. There would be no 'guarantee' of anyone, or claims on neighbors lands, or events that would sway overall opinion. I'm talking true sandbox.

I recently started a game using the monarchy mod, where I forced every nation that could (almost all European) via PP cheats to install a monarchy government. What happened was the creation of the Italian alliance, French alliance, along with the usual three alliances. Unfortunately, the countries were still governed by the national foci they had, even though historical focuses was turned off. With a generic focus tree, the variations would be endless. No Anschluss, no Bombing of Nanjing, no Gandhi, no M-R pact, no Ethiopia. While every nation would have the option to create a faction somewhere on their focus tree, and so on, no factions would be set in stone (not sure how I feel about the commonwealth, as their economies are necessarily linked).

The exceptions to the rule regarding national foci is the possible having to create some sort of reason for a nation to go to war or to ally in the first place. There could be nation-groups created by PGI based upon religion, ethnic/linguistic groups, politics, or mutual regional defense/interest. Those could be paths built into the foci that would be inserted into the appropriate countries. Examples:

Baltic-Scandinavian Alliance, Teutonic/Germanic Alliance, Slavic Alliance, Arabic Alliance, Romance (France/Italy/Spain/Portugese Alliance), Commonwealth, World Communist Pact, Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere, South Pacific Pact (Australia/New Zealand/Indonesia/Pacific Rim), North America Pact, South American Communist/Democrat/Royal/Fascist Pacts, African Tribal Free People's Pact (revolutions in Africa), Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Pagan pacts.

I would advocate a reworking of the ideologies too to make them all attractive instead of just fascism for the freedom it gives (ironic, right? lol). Totalitarian, Communist, Republic, Royal/Monarchist/Paternal Autocrat, True Democracy/Anarchy, Relgious oligarchy.

I'd love to work on such a project!

Honestly they need to bring back the ideologies of HOI III & II which included Social Liberal (FDR( Conservative (Churchill), Paternal Autocrat (Horthy, Franco, Petain, Antonescu, Hirohito, Tojo) , Fascist (Mussolini, Pavelic, Mosley, Bucard ) National Socialist (Hitler) I want to really load up the previous games and start with Radical Left, Leninist and Stalinist but eh. you get the picture.

 

[Sidetrack Nick]

Honestly they need to bring back the ideologies of HOI III & II which included Social Liberal (FDR( Conservative (Churchill), Paternal Autocrat (Horthy, Franco, Petain, Antonescu, Hirohito, Tojo) , Fascist (Mussolini, Pavelic, Mosley, Bucard ) National Socialist (Hitler) I want to really load up the previous games and start with Radical Left, Leninist and Stalinist but eh. you get the picture.

Yes and no. Unless they created a friend/adversary chart that went along with it. Example, a paternal autocrat system would get along with constitutional monarchies, republicans okay. They would be neutral toward totalitarians and market liberals and enemies of communism, socialism, anarchy, and religious governments. Religious oligarchies could be aligned more-or-less with political groups well too, as the level of 'control' would be different for each type of religion. Paganism would be far closer to anarchy than say, Islam, which would align with fascism. (Don't hang me, I AM taking the religions to the extremes here for purposes of this game, perhaps as I see all religious oligarchies as a form of extremism in religion - I guess that makes me an American! lol)

It could be a two-part wheel of politics and religion too. Example, Buddhism/Confucius/Communism/Socialism could be easily allied, where more individual interpretive religions would chafe against command-control governments. Something paradox may not want to touch, but it DOES play a factor, maybe affecting a country's unity.

BTW, here's a mod with a good start toward a nice generic tree, but it doesn't really go deep into the diplomatic/government models. "Reworked Generic National Focus Tree" http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=908737517&searchtext=

 

[Broletariat90]

Yes and no. Unless they created a friend/adversary chart that went along with it. Example, a paternal autocrat system would get along with constitutional monarchies, republicans okay. They would be neutral toward totalitarians and market liberals and enemies of communism, socialism, anarchy, and religious governments. Religious oligarchies could be aligned more-or-less with political groups well too, as the level of 'control' would be different for each type of religion. Paganism would be far closer to anarchy than say, Islam, which would align with fascism. (Don't hang me, I AM taking the religions to the extremes here for purposes of this game, perhaps as I see all religious oligarchies as a form of extremism in religion - I guess that makes me an American! lol)

It could be a two-part wheel of politics and religion too. Example, Buddhism/Confucius/Communism/Socialism could be easily allied, where more individual interpretive religions would chafe against command-control governments. Something paradox may not want to touch, but it DOES play a factor, maybe affecting a country's unity.

BTW, here's a mod with a good start toward a nice generic tree, but it doesn't really go deep into the diplomatic/government models. "Reworked Generic National Focus Tree" http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=908737517&searchtext=

All religions in government ends up with some sort of oligarchy or extremism. I could see several nations that could fall into that category like Croatia/Hungary with the Catholic church and Romania with Orthodox. Oh and possible Franco's Spain. I really want to say some fringe movements in Iraq and Syria might fall under that but Baathism was more secular nationalist. But I get the idea that you are arguing that would be way to complicated and well would take forever to function? Also glad to see a fellow American who see's any type of religious political party or organization with influence in the government as a danger to basic rights. But yeah, I guess what we history nerds would like is way too realistic to be modeled correctly by today's software and well maybe even hardware.

 

[Sidetrack Nick]

All religions in government ends up with some sort of oligarchy or extremism. I could see several nations that could fall into that category like Croatia/Hungary with the Catholic church and Romania with Orthodox. Oh and possible Franco's Spain. I really want to say some fringe movements in Iraq and Syria might fall under that but Baathism was more secular nationalist. But I get the idea that you are arguing that would be way to complicated and well would take forever to function? Also glad to see a fellow American who see's any type of religious political party or organization with influence in the government as a danger to basic rights. But yeah, I guess what we history nerds would like is way too realistic to be modeled correctly by today's software and well maybe even hardware.

Actually, I disagree with you that "ANY type of religious political party or organization with influence in the government is a danger to basic rights." Is Buddhism a bad influence in Communist China? Is Hindu a bad influence in India? Or dare I ask, is Christianity complimentary with the American Republic? Some would say a breakdown of Christian values and influence is a big reason for problems in America today, which makes it hard for the more evangelical or strict versions of Christianity stick out like sore thumbs, when it is more due to the erosion of mainstream churches losing populations. But that is an argument for another thread. Hell, another forum! To make religion work in HOI IV, it has to be as generic and stereotyped as the governments. Like arguing whether the Pope can be a benevolent dictator or fascist protector of the Holy Roman Empire. We're splitting hairs that really have very little impact on the overall game.

My point is that some religions 'fit' with some forms of government better or worse. I think that if religions could be aligned like governments, it would create an interesting set of variables. I could imagine this being in the form of higher or lower resistance in occupied states, or a hit or boon to national unity when annexed by a government. And let's face it, folks would love to play out crusades, jihads, and 'cultural revolutions' in HoI IV. PGI could go to the effort of adding in missionary type diplomacy toward the ends of converting or subverting populations as well.

For the purposes of a sandbox non-historical game, Paradox should - and does - keep it simple and add on over time. In fact, adding a religious dimension could be part of a major political/religious/economic/espionage DLC package. But I would like to see either PDX or a modder create a mod that really expands on government types.

Here's a brainstorm. Picture the list as a wheel where political alignment, like in HOI II and III becomes easier or harder by how far away the governments are on the list.

1. Anarchy

2. Market Liberal (free market capitalism/corporate government, super economy, average military and research, economic boom/bust stability issues)

3. Republic(an) (Representational democracy, stable government, average research, military, espionage)

4. Paternal Autocrat/MatriarchyConstitutional Monarchy/Oligarchy (greater military, average economy and research, penalty to prevent espionage/foreign influence)

5. Totalitarianism/Dictatorship (Personality cult, religious cult, bonus to isolationism, penalty for aggression, average economy, research, great military, chance for random coups, purges necessary)

6. Fascism (Party driven totalitarianism/no elections/loose economy, bonus to aggression, penalty for idleness, average economy, research, espionage)

7. Communism/Stalinism/Maoism (direct social and economic control, major bonuses to protect espionage/foreign influence, weak economy, average research and military)

8. Socialism (total economic control, liberal society, good research, average economy, poor military)

9. Direct Democracy (tyranny of the masses, average economy, poor military, good research, susceptible to coups, espionage)

10/1. Anarchy (tyranny of the individual, super research, major military penalties to organization, loose economic control/poor economy, great resistance on home ground)

 

[Sidetrack Nick]

Regarding populations, there are historic ethnic or linguistic groups that could be taken into account, but I picture that more for the purpose of creating alliances. The USA/Canada would be a 'melting pot' where Japan would have problems convincing anyone they were related, especially considering the Japanese themselves had isolated themselves so effectively for so long. In fact, given the USA's sort of beacon for every tired, poor opportunist and refugee, it might be hard to find a logical partner outside of Canada for alliance. It would have to be worded like 'North American Protectorate' which could include everything up to panama and the Caribbean, or 'Manifest Destiny' tree which includes taking all the islands in the Pacific. So, here we go.

Central American Goals
New Aztlan (Aztec Empire from the Rio Grande to Panama with cores on Southwestern USA states)
Communist Paradise (Trotsky)
Montezuma's Revenge (as Mexico, conquer Caribbean, then Spain)

South American Goals
Native Revolution (Indigenous rising!)
Catholic Paradise (Ally or conquer all of South America, also available for Spain, Portugal, eventual war over remaining French/Dutch/English colonies on north coast)
New World Economic Revolution (Economic war with North America, goal to create an economy as robust as North America's)

Japanese Goals
Create, peacefully if possible, the Co-prosperity sphere.
Island Empire Peacefully Annex all the islands in the pacific, if possible, via coups and economic pressure/coersion, helping in wars for 'independance.'
Empire of the Sun: Convert East Asia to bow down to Hirohito, through force if necessary.

Chinese Goals
Unify China
Island Empire (Rebuild and conquer all of the Pacific)
Economic Dominance (play the long game of becoming the economic powerhouse of Asia, dominating trade throughout the eastern hemisphere)
Maoist Revolution

India/Penninsula goals
Independance and alliance from Europe (Raj, Siam, Vietnam, Pakistan, Cambodia, Laos, Burma)
Hindu Empire (convert all governments in SE asia to the same government and allied)
Breathing Room. Conquer Australia, cuz there's too many people in SE Asia, and Australia looks inviting.

Australia/New Zealand
New Commonwealth. Ally with each other, puppet or annex (depending on government type) all of the pacific islands with Japan as the prize.

Indonesia
Islanders Rise! Break free from Europe, uniting all the island populations into a coalition and defend the islands from all external powers.

South Africa
Take over all of Africa, first by supporting revolutions in Africa, then incorporating them into your empire.
Homecoming. Conquer the UK and Netherlands, moving the capital to Europe, and puppeting South Africa (or releasing it)

Africa
New Egypt. Break away from the UK, create a new empire spanning all of once colonial Africa, through supporting revolutions and allying or conquering the new states.
Liber-de-Africa As Liberia, support revolutions and coups all over Africa, the goal to remove European influence, South Africa being the end prize.

Arabia/Middle East
Conquer all of the middle east, including either through diplomacy or war, kicking out all western powers. Prizes are Turkey and Egypt.
Crusader King. Starting with a free Lebanon or Israel, ally with a European power and facilitate the takeover of the middle east by that power, prizes being Ciaro, Turkey and Persia.

Russia
The Cold War (without declaring war on anyone, create an economy rival or better to that of the USA)
Revenge of the Romanovs (Rebuild the Russian Empire under a new Tsar)
Benevolent Communism (using politics, convert all warsaw pact nations to communism and ally with them)

Slavic Nations
Free the Slavs! Create a Slavic Alliance between Czechs and Pols, then free Belarus and Ukraine.

Balkan States
Unite the desparate: As Bulgaria, Greece, Romania, Yugoslavia, Albania, or Turkey unite or conquer the rest on the list. The prize is Italy.

Austria Hungary
Recreate the full Austro-Hungarian Empire without interference or help from the Allies, Axis, or Comintern. Then complete the Empire by taking Greece and Italy.

Scandinavia
Utopia of the North: Unite all of Scandinavia and Baltic States peacefully.
Viking Empire: Conquer all of Scandinavia and the Baltic States. The prize is Germany. (Secret goals: Sac Paris, Rome, London, and conquer Newfoundland)

Germany
Long live the Kaiser! Convert the country into a constitutional monarchy with the Kaiser in charge and restore borders. (stretch goals, get the colonies back, one way or another)

Switzerland
Create the European Union (Ally with all major powers in Europe, with focus tree that gives you mad political points)

France
Napoleon's Revenge! Conquer Moscow.
Free the minds of Europe! (convert all countries into a non-hostile type, ally with them)

England
English law makes the world English (Restore the King, annex all the colonies, then conquer the USA and bring it back under the crown)

Spain, Portugal
Restore the historic empires. Spain's stretch goal includes Florida, California.

Ireland
Irish Tea Party. Through influence, help commonwealth colonies rebel, then help Scotland and Wales rebel, then Annex England.

North America
North American Alliance (convert all of Western Hemisphere to democracy, then ally with them)
Manifest Destiny (For USA, Canada)
Segregated America ([weird, I know] Segregate the Northwest and southern Rockies for American Indians, Free states of California, Texas, Confederacy run by African people, New England and midwest for European people. This would have to be done by 'releasing' nations, I suppose. IDK, just brainstorming.)

 

[Broletariat90]

Regarding populations, there are historic ethnic or linguistic groups that could be taken into account, but I picture that more for the purpose of creating alliances. The USA/Canada would be a 'melting pot' where Japan would have problems convincing anyone they were related, especially considering the Japanese themselves had isolated themselves so effectively for so long. In fact, given the USA's sort of beacon for every tired, poor opportunist and refugee, it might be hard to find a logical partner outside of Canada for alliance. It would have to be worded like 'North American Protectorate' which could include everything up to panama and the Caribbean, or 'Manifest Destiny' tree which includes taking all the islands in the Pacific. So, here we go.

Central American Goals
New Aztlan (Aztec Empire from the Rio Grande to Panama with cores on Southwestern USA states)
Communist Paradise (Trotsky)
Montezuma's Revenge (as Mexico, conquer Caribbean, then Spain)

South American Goals
Native Revolution (Indigenous rising!)
Catholic Paradise (Ally or conquer all of South America, also available for Spain, Portugal, eventual war over remaining French/Dutch/English colonies on north coast)
New World Economic Revolution (Economic war with North America, goal to create an economy as robust as North America's)

Japanese Goals
Create, peacefully if possible, the Co-prosperity sphere.
Island Empire Peacefully Annex all the islands in the pacific, if possible, via coups and economic pressure/coersion, helping in wars for 'independance.'
Empire of the Sun: Convert East Asia to bow down to Hirohito, through force if necessary.

Chinese Goals
Unify China
Island Empire (Rebuild and conquer all of the Pacific)
Economic Dominance (play the long game of becoming the economic powerhouse of Asia, dominating trade throughout the eastern hemisphere)
Maoist Revolution

India/Penninsula goals
Independance and alliance from Europe (Raj, Siam, Vietnam, Pakistan, Cambodia, Laos, Burma)
Hindu Empire (convert all governments in SE asia to the same government and allied)
Breathing Room. Conquer Australia, cuz there's too many people in SE Asia, and Australia looks inviting.

Australia/New Zealand
New Commonwealth. Ally with each other, puppet or annex (depending on government type) all of the pacific islands with Japan as the prize.

Indonesia
Islanders Rise! Break free from Europe, uniting all the island populations into a coalition and defend the islands from all external powers.

South Africa
Take over all of Africa, first by supporting revolutions in Africa, then incorporating them into your empire.
Homecoming. Conquer the UK and Netherlands, moving the capital to Europe, and puppeting South Africa (or releasing it)

Africa
New Egypt. Break away from the UK, create a new empire spanning all of once colonial Africa, through supporting revolutions and allying or conquering the new states.
Liber-de-Africa As Liberia, support revolutions and coups all over Africa, the goal to remove European influence, South Africa being the end prize.

Arabia/Middle East
Conquer all of the middle east, including either through diplomacy or war, kicking out all western powers. Prizes are Turkey and Egypt.
Crusader King. Starting with a free Lebanon or Israel, ally with a European power and facilitate the takeover of the middle east by that power, prizes being Ciaro, Turkey and Persia.

Russia
The Cold War (without declaring war on anyone, create an economy rival or better to that of the USA)
Revenge of the Romanovs (Rebuild the Russian Empire under a new Tsar)
Benevolent Communism (using politics, convert all warsaw pact nations to communism and ally with them)

Slavic Nations
Free the Slavs! Create a Slavic Alliance between Czechs and Pols, then free Belarus and Ukraine.

Balkan States
Unite the desparate: As Bulgaria, Greece, Romania, Yugoslavia, Albania, or Turkey unite or conquer the rest on the list. The prize is Italy.

Austria Hungary
Recreate the full Austro-Hungarian Empire without interference or help from the Allies, Axis, or Comintern. Then complete the Empire by taking Greece and Italy.

Scandinavia
Utopia of the North: Unite all of Scandinavia and Baltic States peacefully.
Viking Empire: Conquer all of Scandinavia and the Baltic States. The prize is Germany. (Secret goals: Sac Paris, Rome, London, and conquer Newfoundland)

Germany
Long live the Kaiser! Convert the country into a constitutional monarchy with the Kaiser in charge and restore borders. (stretch goals, get the colonies back, one way or another)

Switzerland
Create the European Union (Ally with all major powers in Europe, with focus tree that gives you mad political points)

France
Napoleon's Revenge! Conquer Moscow.
Free the minds of Europe! (convert all countries into a non-hostile type, ally with them)

England
English law makes the world English (Restore the King, annex all the colonies, then conquer the USA and bring it back under the crown)

Spain, Portugal
Restore the historic empires. Spain's stretch goal includes Florida, California.

Ireland
Irish Tea Party. Through influence, help commonwealth colonies rebel, then help Scotland and Wales rebel, then Annex England.

North America
North American Alliance (convert all of Western Hemisphere to democracy, then ally with them)
Manifest Destiny (For USA, Canada)
Segregated America ([weird, I know] Segregate the Northwest and southern Rockies for American Indians, Free states of California, Texas, Confederacy run by African people, New England and midwest for European people. This would have to be done by 'releasing' nations, I suppose. IDK, just brainstorming.)

The fact that you even mentioned segregation in regards to the United States is extremely depressing. Also that you have this idea of creating racial states out of the United States. I don't mean to be a bummer but I really don't mind reporting this. The fact that you want this idea of existing states to be separated on racial lines says a lot. The fact that you want the United States of America split between so called "whites" . Native Americans and African Americans is highly upsetting. Though you might not find this offensive but the idea of splitting my country on so called "racial lines" is white nationalist. Reported and done. I don't mean to end this thread but you totally derailed it. I spoke of historical plausibility and you brought up this idea of separate racial nation states in North America....Where the hell did that even come from?

 

[Dalnar]

Wasn't racial segregation a huge thing in USA back in 1930s? Not sure why you are so triggered about it. Not that I agree with that split either, it just feels very akward to be offended by something that undeniably happened in the past.

 

[Broletariat90]

Wasn't racial segregation a huge thing in USA back in 1930s? Not sure why you are so triggered about it. Not that I agree with that split either, it just feels very akward to be offended by something that undeniably happened in the past.

Well lets think about this, there isn't a Nuremberg Law focus is there? Or what about the Madagascar Plan ??? So I guess there shouldn't' be a focus around the racial segregation of the United States. I'm not triggered I'm pointing out something that is obviously morally wrong and should not be an option in a pc game. Sorry I don't agree with your opinion.

 

[CrazyZombie]

Well lets think about this, there isn't a Nuremberg Law focus is there? Or what about the Madagascar Plan ??? So I guess there shouldn't' be a focus around the racial segregation of the United States. I'm not triggered I'm pointing out something that is obviously morally wrong and should not be an option in a pc game. Sorry I don't agree with your opinion.

"Great Purge" shouldn't be an option in a pc game... Or only democracies and fascists have the right to be saint in HOI4?

 

[Dalnar]

If you look at the South African tree, there is bit about segregation and stuff so it's not like the issue is limited only to USA. Great Purge is just euphemism for political mass murder.

There is nothing morally wrong about showing what happened in the past, after all the purpose of learning history is that mistakes are not repeated.

 

[--Yigito123--]

"Great Purge" shouldn't be an option in a pc game... Or only democracies and fascists have the right to be saint in HOI4?

The Soviet purge was a political event, not an racial event. That's why it is a focus yet the mass deportations to Siberia isn't.

 

[CrazyZombie]

If you look at the South African tree, there is bit about segregation and stuff so it's not like the issue is limited only to USA. Great Purge is just euphemism for political mass murder.

There is nothing morally wrong about showing what happened in the past, after all the purpose of learning history is that mistakes are not repeated.

What triggers me in HOI4 is the way, PDX show states and ideological blocks. Democracies are literally saint, nobody is going to show you american business helping with german rearmament or show real reason, why France and Britain willingly feed Austria and Czechoslovakia to the Reich.
Fascism is "okay" too. When you play as Third Reich you don't feel it like you are playing one of the most criminal regimes in history of humankind, with plans of enthic purges with million numbers of planned kills.
Soviet Union is portrayed "odd". Ok, Great purge, but if you don't do it, you will face the NKVD rebellion lead by Vlasov... Wait, what?! (that is the event, after which I feel myself completely "okay" with possible democratic and even fascist paths for SU - it is already absurd enough, so can't get much worse).
Soviet military doctrine is shown completely wrong too. IRL it was "deep operation theory" and it was about unstopping offensive, constant push on the enemy, not just overrunning him with meat.

 

[Sidetrack Nick]

The Soviet purge was a political event, not an racial event. That's why it is a focus yet the mass deportations to Siberia isn't.

Paradox is sensitive about racial stuff and, Germany's laws aside, I understand. And I'm not apologizing for my ideas of a segregated America. Still, it's a weird idea because it is really far-fetched. Just because it is easy to conceptualize compartmentalizing the US into zones designated for people by color/ethnic background doesn't mean there would be any peaceful or fair way to do so. Think about it. Would the descendants of settlers say, "Sorry for our forefather's mistakes, Mr. Sioux Nation guy, we're going to go back across the Mississippi now and leave you alone." Or that a white man who's family has lived in the deep south for 5 generations is going to simply agree to move north and give his land to a black family. Now, granted, there were forced border changes historically, along with forcing the populations to move with those borders. Poor Poland... Trail of Tears...

I was simply trying to think of something other than manifest destiny or a new civil war for the American focus tree, and that's what I came up with. It works, technically. Creating new nations in the game and adding some flavor text wouldn't be so hard to do. Logically, though, it just wouldn't happen. There WOULD be a civil war - possibly a straight up race war - in America if this happened, and certainly, if the American Indians, who were terribly oppressed already, would probably be exterminated, and Black people would be too, or all shoved into Florida or something. America already had lots of practice with genocide, and Geronimo's close relatives were still around to tell you stories about that. So were children of slaves. Is creating a national focus tree that creates this strange new America worth the debate it would create? I don't know, but I wouldn't want to arbitrate it!

 

[Sidetrack Nick]

Wasn't racial segregation a huge thing in USA back in 1930s? Not sure why you are so triggered about it. Not that I agree with that split either, it just feels very akward to be offended by something that undeniably happened in the past.

It is true. Even into the 1950's. My folks were alive to live through it, and it was an era of polite indifference. The legacy remains. Perhaps that's why, as an American, I try to avoid the subject. I know about it and have studied it, but I don't want to 'play a game' with it. It was wrong. Same way I envision myself as a 'benevolent dictator' of Germany where Jews weren't targeted, and like to play games where I can change history in that respect.

I guess the real fear is that we get some neo-nazi punk that wants to turn the thread and/or idea into a big sounding board to boost their political/racial agenda. I suppose my statement that segregation is wrong would be a catalyst for disagreement in itself. Sorry for the soliloquy. I am a political animal in person, and have a very hard time keeping my mouth shut sometimes. I just want to support the idea for paradox to create national foci that remove the historical focus tree all-together for non-historical games to make it a true sandbox, where every nation has goals or things to do, some aggressive, some economical, some political.

Back to my ideas....

I think one of the big hurdles to overcome with generic focus trees is how other countries react to the aggressive, political and economic moves of other countries. Perhaps all countries who are following their generic trees would react according to their goals. Eventually forming power blocks. How do you tame the early aggression is the real question? All of my ideas take time, and can be destroyed by a zerg rush, I reckon.

 

[Dalnar]

The thing for me about major trees is that you actually need minor countries done first, so you can make them interact with the major ones. Every country in 1930s had some kind of agenda, political options and ambitions as well as problems which are represented as various limitations and maluses. If I could rate the in-game trees at the moment, I value the South African one most for numerous reasons and it's clear improvement over the originals.