Please PI, fix the German/HRE de jure setup: breake up the Kingdom of Germany!

[Ciccillo Rre]

2.0 Changing the de jure borders of the German kingdom is hard, but in my personal version I added an event for the transition of the Pommeranian duchies.

I don't like events for these things, seem to me a workaround and can be gameplay-breaking (what if you are playing as Pomerania?).

2.a Here I disagree, I prefer the larger German kingdom, maybe split in a Eastern Frankish kingdom of German and a Middle Frankish kingdom of Lotharingia.

It is definitely easier, but given that we have Bavaria and the rest, it would be nice to use them right? So if we really want the unified German kingdom, we can write a decision to make it out of Bavaria, Alamannia, Saxony and/or whatever.

2.b-1 I totally agree regarding the colors of duchies.
2.b-2 The German Eagle predates the Hohenstaufen dukes and so the Swabian CoA uses the German colors and not the other way around. This also implies that the Hohenstaufen Sicilian Eagle arms are derived from the German Royal arms.

Didn't know that, sources? I thought the Imperial Eagle is by necessity double-headed and the one used in Vanilla for the kingdom of Germany (single-headed) is kind of fiction based on the Sicilian one (historically introduced by the Hohenstaufens) with a different background to make it look 'modern'.

2.c Being independent or the emperor would be a good condition, especially regarding the large German kingdom.
An exception would be Bohemia, but instead (maybe as an OR condition) of having the Bohemian culture I usually use the condition of being duke of Bohemia and duke (actually margrave) of Moravia.
In my own version Frisia is titular, and I use similar conditions for Frisia as for Bohemia.
Lotharingia is larger, which makes it harder to create, but also makes more like Burgundy and Italy. Creating such kingdoms, should either be done by the emperor or an independent ruler.

We can debate the details.

2.d In my version that would mean uniting Germany and Lotharingia; de facto making Lotharingia titular, something IMHO should eventually happen anyway.

I don't like titular titles for the same very reason Paradox doesn't (they can be problematic gameplay-wise).

Regarding the German kingdom (Germany with Lotharingia), I beg to differ, it did exist as a part of the empire; or to put it differently it was the kingdom in the empire, not requiring a different entity in the empire like Italy and Burgundy.

You see, by yourself you are placing the 'kingship of the Romans' on a different level, see my second post above.

2.* Regarding the provinces, some decisions are debatable. IMHO Sankt Gallen and Chur (as parts of Raetia) are better of in Swabia, I'd keep Salzburg in Bavaria and Württemberg in Swabia; and finally Steiermark, which is rather tricky, I like a duchy of Styria, but that's too small for the vanilla map, in 1066 Steiermark should be in Carinthia, until 1180, and after 1192 the duchy of Styria was united with the duchy of Austria, so keeping it with Austria IMHO makes more sense.

This will always be debatable.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

Guys, I am planning to upload my mod after 1.08 and proper hotfixes will have come out. For now, I will be happy to send my landed_titles.txt file by email for the colors. I have emptied the PM box. Sorry for the size of images but detail is important, I am no expert but I think that imageshack does a good job with it, it's a pretty standard upload website as I see from the forum. Also, I have updated the second post with the historical justification of the changes.

Now, some other overdue replies.

I pretty much agree with everything in the OP (although why take Flanders away from Frisia?)

Because of historical reasons and most importantly because I don't want the HRE to have that many free CBs over France for land that historically remained French.

I used to start as a count and create Kingdom of Germany, but after Germany's size was reduced, when it lost some of it's historical lands, it's not as much fun as it used to be. Personally I don't want to lose Germany completely, but rather I would love to see HRE which has only 4 kingdoms in it's de jure territory: Germany, Burgundy, Italy and Bohemia.

Inclusion of Italy and Burgundy would break the Feudal Elective mechanic as it is now, representing history quite nicely.

I realize most of the op's suggestions were aimed more at achieving a more historically plausible HRE. But why not take the opportunity to improve game play while at it.

I see Bavaria much more often than you do, but maybe it's because I took three/four counties out of its de jure borders. In fact, we can debate on how to improve gameplay along historicity. For instance, much would depend on the creation conditions for the kingdoms.

The stem duchies should not exist as kingdom-level titles. They never were anything like kings. Moreover, the title "king of Germany" was absolutely established any universally accepted within the middle ages. How can you possibly propose to do away with it and introduce totally ahistorical "kings" of Saxony or Franconia??? That makes zero sense.

Please (re)-read my posts 1-2. I have no intention to make the 'younger' stem duchies kingdoms or to make a kingdom of Franconia, although several mods do it. What I am proposing is the inclusion of the frankish/tribal 'older' stem duchies, which were called in Latin 'kingdoms' for a long time and in the case of Bavaria, also had proper kings at times.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

Finally, my promised Russian setup. I am not 100% happy about it, I may make further changes; such as extend the borders of e_russia but especially revise kingdoms in the Ukraine/Volga area, trying to fit in a kingdom of Khazaria for turkish characters. Also I am not sure what to do with the kingdom of Taurica: de jure Byzantium or not? I really want the duchy of Cherson to be de jure Byzantium, but not the area to the north of it.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

Inclusion of Italy and Burgundy would break the Feudal Elective mechanic as it is now, representing history quite nicely.

That is true, but it also has positive sides. I have seen undesireable outcomes with current system where Italy and Burgundy are outside the de jure HRE territory. The problem is that if Italy isn't part de jure of HRE then it doesn't mean anything to AI emperor, while historically emperors tried to keep Italy under the imperial control. So once Italian duchies manage to win their independence they stay independent for a brief period of time before Muslims conquer them. IMHO HRE Italy is better than Fatimid Italy. And even if there is no Muslim invasion newly independent counties and duchies seem to be vulnerable to the invasions of the merchant republics.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

That is true, but it also has positive sides. I have seen undesireable outcomes with current system where Italy and Burgundy are outside the de jure HRE territory. The problem is that if Italy isn't part de jure of HRE then it doesn't mean anything to AI emperor, while historically emperors tried to keep Italy under the imperial control. So once Italian duchies manage to win their independence they stay independent for a brief period of time before Muslims conquer them. IMHO HRE Italy is better than Fatimid Italy. And even if there is no Muslim invasion newly independent counties and duchies seem to be vulnerable to the invasions of the merchant republics.

As I see it the issue is that muslims take over Italy, for when Italian states become independent I don't want the HRE emperor to have free CBs on them, otherwise we can never have the possibility to replicate history.

What should be is that the HRE emperor struggles to impose his authority on Italy, but giving him a possibility to affirm it. Maybe an option would make it so that at start, de jure shift of Italy into the HRE begins, and Italians states have to rush to get independence (but for each year of independence, as we know, the clock starts to rotate backwards, so it can be a struggle).

To make it so one should need to make Venice a de jure kingdom (as you can see I did so, making k_venice de jure e_byzantium too, and giving c_istria to d_venice too), then make d_latium de jure k_papal_states at start, and finally make Genoa a vassal of the HRE (as it was nominally historically). This would slightly make the HRE more powerful which can be otherwise counterbalanced, but can also potentially limit the coastal expansion of Genoa to the advantage of Venice (I've noticed that republics expand faster when they're independent).

 

[Wallain]

As I see it the Fatimids taking over Italy is not an issue the de jure territories should try to deal with. Fatimids has to be simply nerfed and that is that. It does not help to make the HRE more powerful. Personally I threw in Lotharingia as an empire just for show along the HRE-Francia border. It makes things a bit more interesting I feel.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

To make it so one should need to make Venice a de jure kingdom (as you can see I did so, making k_venice de jure e_byzantium too, and giving c_istria to d_venice too), then make d_latium de jure k_papal_states at start, and finally make Genoa a vassal of the HRE (as it was nominally historically). This would slightly make the HRE more powerful which can be otherwise counterbalanced, but can also potentially limit the coastal expansion of Genoa to the advantage of Venice (I've noticed that republics expand faster when they're independent).

By 1066, shouldn't Venice have long since drifted out of Byzantium?? Their last proper liege/vassal interaction was ~260 years in the past at that point.

 

[Olaus Petrus]

As I see it the issue is that muslims take over Italy, for when Italian states become independent I don't want the HRE emperor to have free CBs on them, otherwise we can never have the possibility to replicate history.

What should be is that the HRE emperor struggles to impose his authority on Italy, but giving him a possibility to affirm it. Maybe an option would make it so that at start, de jure shift of Italy into the HRE begins, and Italians states have to rush to get independence (but for each year of independence, as we know, the clock starts to rotate backwards, so it can be a struggle).

To make it so one should need to make Venice a de jure kingdom (as you can see I did so, making k_venice de jure e_byzantium too, and giving c_istria to d_venice too), then make d_latium de jure k_papal_states at start, and finally make Genoa a vassal of the HRE (as it was nominally historically). This would slightly make the HRE more powerful which can be otherwise counterbalanced, but can also potentially limit the coastal expansion of Genoa to the advantage of Venice (I've noticed that republics expand faster when they're independent).

The fact is however that historically Italy was de jure part of HRE for the whole CKII's time period. Personally I believe that the Italian history would be best simulated with the new faction system and Paradox should add specific Guelph and Ghibelline -factions which would work inside HRE, but to which only Italians could join.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

By 1066, shouldn't Venice have long since drifted out of Byzantium?? Their last proper liege/vassal interaction was ~260 years in the past at that point.

Well, the new rules in-game require Venice to control the whole de jure area before starting drifting out, and if you have Istria in the area as well, that is under the HRE at game start!

Anyways, I think that having Venice into Byzantium makes for a more interesting setup and also nicer borders.

 

[Ruwaard]

I don't like events for these things, seem to me a workaround and can be gameplay-breaking (what if you are playing as Pomerania?).

That depends on how you write such an event; obviously (you might have misunderstood me) that event should only fire if these duchies are conquered by the HRE (you could have a Polish, Danish and Swedish variant too).

It is definitely easier, but given that we have Bavaria and the rest, it would be nice to use them right? So if we really want the unified German kingdom, we can write a decision to make it out of Bavaria, Alamannia, Saxony and/or whatever.

Not my preferred set up (they didn't have to include most of these for me), but that doesn't change the idea behind the decision, which we both agree upon.

Didn't know that, sources? I thought the Imperial Eagle is by necessity double-headed and the one used in Vanilla for the kingdom of Germany (single-headed) is kind of fiction based on the Sicilian one (historically introduced by the Hohenstaufens) with a different background to make it look 'modern'.

The HRE and the also the German kingdom used a single headed eagle as a symbol even before heraldry since the Carolingian and Ottonian emperors. The double headed eagle only definitely became the imperial symbol after the rule of Sigismund of Luxembourg. (Making the single headed eagle a symbol of the king of the Romans instead.) However as symbol it definitely refers to the Roman heritage and not Sicily (but that might also be the case with Sicily.)

We can debate the details.


I don't like titular titles for the same very reason Paradox doesn't (they can be problematic gameplay-wise).


You see, by yourself you are placing the 'kingship of the Romans' on a different level, see my second post above.


This will always be debatable.

Might come back at this later.

 

[Wallain]

That depends on how you write such an event; obviously (you might have misunderstood me) that event should only fire if these duchies are conquered by the HRE (you could have a Polish, Danish and Swedish variant too).

You do not need events for what assimilation does already - what we need is to make that one mechanic better.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Yeah, I've got to be honest CR, I don't really like the idea of doing away with the kingdom of Germany. o

 

[Wallain]

I really want a multi-layered de-jure map.

 

[Ciccillo Rre]

Yeah, I've got to be honest CR, I don't really like the idea of doing away with the kingdom of Germany. o

Me neiter, so I would reintroduce it as a decision. Maybe as a part of an HRE specific DLC, who knows. The thing is, at present with Bavaria separated from it things look very ugly

 

[A_Dane]

I used to start as a count and create Kingdom of Germany, but after Germany's size was reduced, when it lost some of it's historical lands, it's not as much fun as it used to be. Personally I don't want to lose Germany completely, but rather I would love to see HRE which has only 4 kingdoms in it's de jure territory: Germany, Burgundy, Italy and Bohemia.

IMO, I don't think Italy should be de jure HRE, it's already way too stable as it is, and i don't really consider Burgundy a part of it at game start either, it had only been incorporated what, 30 years prior?

 

[Sleight of Hand]

IMO, I don't think Italy should be de jure HRE, it's already way too stable as it is, and i don't really consider Burgundy a part of it at game start either, it had only been incorporated what, 30 years prior?

Yeah, it doesn't work with Italy in because it means Italian doges can vote, and then a doge will at some point be elected Emperor and it turns the HRE open elective -- at that point, the whole system is f'd for the rest of the game.

I agree with Olaus, though. I much preferred a larger Germany, though I quite like having Lotharingia as its totally historical and later Burgundian dukes attempted to resurrect it. I don't like Bavaria, though, and I can't really see how it would ever have been accepted as a proper kingdom within the HRE.

I don't like Rus being split into Rus and Ruthenia, either. Very odd move.

 

[A_Dane]

Yeah, it doesn't work with Italy in because it means Italian doges can vote, and then a doge will at some point be elected Emperor and it turns the HRE open elective -- at that point, the whole system is f'd for the rest of the game.

I agree with Olaus, though. I much preferred a larger Germany, though I quite like having Lotharingia as its totally historical and later Burgundian dukes attempted to resurrect it. I don't like Bavaria, though, and I can't really see how it would ever have been accepted as a proper kingdom within the HRE.

I don't like Rus being split into Rus and Ruthenia, either. Very odd move.

exactly.. though I understand why they broke Germany up, I wouldn't want it removed.

Rus being split into Rus and Ruthenia makes sense though, since there's now the empire of Russia

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Rus being split into Rus and Ruthenia makes sense though, since there's now the empire of Russia

The split is completely arbitrary, as Doomdark has admitted. It's just a rough 50/50 split with no logical border.

The old kingdom of Rus was much better (the whole area was Kievan' Rus historically) -- you can still have a Russian Empire consisting of Rus, Volga Bulgaria and Perm. Personally I remove it, though.

What happens now is Rus and Ruthenia are both formed very quickly and become interlocked patchworks, with rival dukes controlling random territories in each. You'll never (or rarely; I've never seen it) get them as proper kingdoms with logical borders, due to the fact that a single family controls the entire area and will inherit different patches of land over time.

 

[Jeltz]

Yeah, it doesn't work with Italy in because it means Italian doges can vote, and then a doge will at some point be elected Emperor and it turns the HRE open elective -- at that point, the whole system is f'd for the rest of the game.

Sounds like a bug to me. The HRE should not become Open Elective just because a Doge is elected. The Doge should just continue to be both Doge and Kaiser with no changes of succession laws in either the republic or the empire.

 

[A_Dane]

The split is completely arbitrary, as Doomdark has admitted. It's just a rough 50/50 split with no logical border.

The old kingdom of Rus was much better (the whole area was Kievan' Rus historically) -- you can still have a Russian Empire consisting of Rus, Volga Bulgaria and Perm. Personally I remove it, though.

What happens now is Rus and Ruthenia are both formed very quickly and become interlocked patchworks, with rival dukes controlling random territories in each. You'll never (or rarely; I've never seen it) get them as proper kingdoms with logical borders, due to the fact that a single family controls the entire area and will inherit different patches of land over time.

True, but I always personally felt, that some kingdoms are just a tad too large, andi prefer having them split up a bit, even if it's slightly arbitary.

But i think it's a matter of prefference