Please Paradox make Byzantium playable and fun, like it was in 1.3 and 1.4.

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FloatingOrb

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I just started up a byzantine games, well a few of them. Once I wasn't the first target of the ottomans, I was able to DOW albania, the minor turkish nations, tebizond, and then georgia after crimea took half of them, along with the balkans. I also managed to take tunis, but it was pretty useless. With them as my vassals, I was able to take on the ottos by letting a single 20 stack cross into greece at a time and then block the straight. Crimea wasn't allied with them anymore, although they did grant mill access. After I took a bunch more coastal provinces, I played to 1530 and did pretty well. Ottomans aren't a threat, although mamluks started getting close.
 

ssuperflash1

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I just started up a byzantine games, well a few of them. Once I wasn't the first target of the ottomans, I was able to DOW albania, the minor turkish nations, tebizond, and then georgia after crimea took half of them, along with the balkans. I also managed to take tunis, but it was pretty useless. With them as my vassals, I was able to take on the ottos by letting a single 20 stack cross into greece at a time and then block the straight. Crimea wasn't allied with them anymore, although they did grant mill access. After I took a bunch more coastal provinces, I played to 1530 and did pretty well. Ottomans aren't a threat, although mamluks started getting close.
Literally everything you did was gamey. Not blaming you but this is why we complain (Anti-Byzantines)
 

Pete0714

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Purple Phoenix is a useless DLC. You almost always get the wrong missions and they require way too high military rank on the monarch to even appear.
Well, like I said, I haven't tried Byz yet to verify any argument on that. However, I wonder whether even that was supposed to be WAD. randomness and luck has often been a trait of Europa games. What settings are you using in your options when you come up with these results?
 

dharper

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Ottoman is killing me every game now and I don't know what to do! There was ways to survive in last patches, but now its too hard in my opinion. I'm not good at this game, but playing byzantium was fun.
Please do some changes. Crying, whining, boohoo :(
Have you considered playing a mod like MEIOU & Taxes, which starts in 1356 when Byzantium was stronger? Or a mod like Dorimi's Byzantium mod, which adds more flavor to playing the Eastern Roman Empire?
 

eigervue

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so i expected id have to restart a few times but im still going strong on my first one, 1504 have all of greece, most of asia minor, vassals: wallachia, bosnia, georgia

Here's what I did
Before Unpause: Warn the Ottomans, mostly so they don't warn you.
military access with a country next to serbia.

Build more land troops to your force limit, move all your units next to serbia. Immediately start improving relations with Poland.
Declare war on Serbia without a casus belli, just take the stability hit, vassilize them. Disband your cogs start building galleys, keep building infantry to stay at your force limit. My understanding is that the AI targets weaker players first unless they got the "City of the world desire mission" which in my case they didnt get until later. So as long as your military power is greater than the Turkish minors the ottomans want to go after, you'll be safe for a bit.

If you were lucky Bosnia or Wallachia trade disputed you for your aggressive actions, if not you need to spend some administrative points to keep your stability at -2 (since all provinces have the right culture and religion, stability doesnt really matter early, just cant be -3). Declare war on them 1 at a time and vassilize them as well. After you declare war on 1 of them go check poland and see who their rivals are, name one of them your rival as well. You should also be able to get a royal marriage. Once you have vassalized Bosnia and Wallachia, you should be strong enough for Poland to ally you.

The next step is controlling the Bosporus, if you get lucky (which again i did) the ottomans turned on Dulkadir or some province the mamluks guaranteed, and got into a war with the mamluks, who with the bigger navy sunk all their ships. The ottomans do rebuild their navy but you should be able to have a stronger force by having only galleys where they will build cogs and barques, also make sure you have an admiral. Once you are sure you have the better navy, wait for them to move their army stack into turkey, declare war. You and your vassal armies can easily siege them out, and you can blockade them once you finish off their navy. Poland will usually come to your aid unless they are in a war but it isnt even really needed yet, since you only want to take a few provinces at a time. From here its pretty easy to just slowly rinse and repeat this process demandind all greek and bulgarian provinces.

Between the wars pay attention to Corfu, Naxos, Rhodes, Cyprus and Crete in my game Crete got independence from Venice, i immediately DoW'd them, and the mamluks took, then lost to patriots rhodes and cyprus. Aragon gave me Corfu after winning a war vs Venice and i picked off naxos somewhere along the way. If you aren't so lucky, you can easily take them from venice so long as you maintain naval superiority (sink theirs, then siege their capitol and they cant do anything)

The bigger threat to you is actually Crimea, they surprised me with a navy and for some reason in a war i didnt call them to, poland gave them military access, if the ottomans start getting too many powerful allies, improve relations with the remaining turkish minors to +100, they will invariably DoW them without calling their allies, and you can join the war via the enforce peace option to only have to fight them.

Once they only have erdine left in europe is when you really want polands help crushing them, making them release more turkish minors. Eventually cut them down and vassilize them, then you can DoW the turkish minors, give the provinces back to the ottomans so when you anenx them they are already cored.

In my game Crimea reduced georgia to 1 province and vassilized them, when you have poland with you in a war you can easily get them to release georgia and give you a province next to them. Spend time building a claim on georgia's province, and DoW them after the truce is up, vassilizing them then giving them the province you used to claim from. The next time you war with crimea, you can make them release the other georgian provinces.

This is pretty much where I am now, I integrated serbia (had a border with hungary anyway and it was a relation i didnt need), also got Candar and Trebonizid, but the Karamans are sticking around since im currently warned by the mamluks and need to recover manpower before i can enter a major war. I'm pulling in about 12 gold a month even with 3 lvl 1 advisors and a 30 stack army/navy. I also broke my alliance with poland, they were just getting in too many wars with a united denmark and muscovy and not teching, and formed a new one with the austrians. I dont expect them to help me in wars any more, but just hopefully keep castille who inherited aragon and naples off my back for the time being while i find a way to push thru the mamluks and the hordes to india.

The downside here is it takes monarch points because of your alliance + vassals will push you over the limit and you are going to need at least 1 general and 1 admiral but you will pull in a lot of gold pretty fast and can afford it. Do make sure when you build your army you make muslim units in the provinces you took from the ottomans they are better than your early units.
 

eigervue

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My beef with EUIV Byzantium as compared to EU3 Byzantium is that they broke the 'blocking the straits' strategy from EU3. Before as Byzantium one could mint like crazy, create a huge galley fleet, wait until the Ottomans were in Asia, and then attack. Now if you do that the Ottomans will just get military access around the Black Sea and eventually come and kill you.

Which is stupid. Historically 'blocking the straits' was a commonly posited anti-Ottoman tactic. It didn't work because Genoa and Venice, the only local powers with the ships to do it, wouldn't, because they couldn't stand each other.

But instead we have in EUIV the Ottomans marching all around the Black Sea, never mind that none of the countries, not even Crimea, would want Ottoman armies in their territories because they wouldn't be sure they would leave. Even in the 1500s when Russia had eaten Kazan and Astrakhan, the Crimeans still didn't like having Turks in their neighborhood because they found them overbearing neighbors.

Never mind the logistics.

So to counter the historical realistic Byzantine strategy of Eu3 (I never did the 'cycle one galley' strategy) we have a unrealistic, gamey Ottoman counter-strategy that makes it vastly harder to play as Byzantium.

It is a good thing this game is easy to mod.

I didnt ever have the ottomans march around (although i waited for them to get into a war before dow'ing them not just moving so maybe they were focused on the other war goal first), although their ally crimea came for a few fights. Still cant you defeat that by just having your fleet sit in port and just come out to blockade the straights when they get close, then go back to port etc, not really gamey as you arent just using 1. Also by the time they march around, your war score should be more than enough to demand provinces with the successful sieges and blockades.
 

Ixtli613

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In my recent game as Norway, I just finished stealing Scotland out from under the English and I took a moment to survey the rest of the world in 1464. The Byzantines have reclaimed almost all of Greece and parts of the southern Balkans, and the Ottomans have been torn apart by the various Anatolian Beyliks+Ak Quonlyu (sp?). Probably just a fluke, but I thought it was funny in light of this thread's claim that Byzantium is too weak.
 

Brainblow

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I also find the Byzantines to way too hard to play. Especially since there's a freaking DLC for the faction. You'd think there should be more possibilities for it if it is literally worth spending money on.
 

FloatingOrb

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Literally everything you did was gamey. Not blaming you but this is why we complain (Anti-Byzantines)

Of coarse it's gamey. How do you honestly expect a 3 province minor, with a 1 province vassal, to defeat a major world power like the ottomans in Ironman? It needs a miracle, thus gamey tactics. What would you have paradox do, overpower the shit out of the byzantines so they can fight the ottomans on even footing? If that happens, the byzantines would just move on to roll over the world.
I do not find it any more gamey than blockading the straights by taking out a boatload of loans. Walking through Crimea makes sense to me since the ai is rather braindead and doesn't know how to move troops over water without setting you up to play a
game of whack a mole.

Now if you aren't playing ironman, you can just fight the Ottomans. Without their lucky nation bonuses you can just use the terrain against them and straight up fight them that way. I found that boring though.
 

scelestus13

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I would contest the tech part; they were broke which is why they didn't match the Ottomans but they did actively try to get pretty much everything the Ottomans did.

When the Hungarian gunsmith Orban came to Constantinople to make guns, he was given a mere pittance of a stipend, and even this couldn't be payed regularly. One the verge of poverty, he went to the Ottomans, building the bombasts used to bring the walls down. In addition, the organization and logistics of the Ottoman army were legendary. Admittedly, Constantine XI was interested in new military technologies, but could hardly afford. Trying and actually succeeding are two very different things. And the Ottomans being split between Europe and Asia was a problem, but at that stage it was barely an issue. Keep in mind, the Ottomans felt confident enough to do that in the first place. They had better soldiers and outnumbered the byzantines hilariously by this point- as in, 20-1 or so, the fact they were better trained and more able to sustain a war effort notwithstanding.

It's kind of like complaining "I loaded as the Powhattan's in 1607 and the English keep beating me. Please fix this paradox." If it's history up to the time you start playing, then that still leaves the Byzantines and the Ottomans on hilariously unequal footing.
 

StatikShocker

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no one can say it should be impossible. What if Timur and the Mamluks invade Anatolia in 1450? What if the Ottomans get a peasant's war? You don't think it is possible for the Ottomans armies to be distracted and defeated by other forces and for an opportunistic Byzantium to lay siege to Greece? From there anything is possible. Please stop attacking people for what you think is possible or not. I think a lot more is possible than you might think, don't be so narrow minded.
 

Pilot00

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Another interesting feature that might help is the personality of the leaders (AI). In a recent play through Mehmet started as a diplomat and up to 1480s the only wars the ottomas were involved were ones drawn by their allies, which inevitably exhausted their manpower and allowed me to snatch provinces in small engagements and proxy wars, till Poland and Lithuania smacked them and I took half of Anatolia back.
The personalities of the leaders of both the Ottos and your allies might be worth to check as you start.
 

aitaituo

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Literally everything you did was gamey. Not blaming you but this is why we complain (Anti-Byzantines)

What is gamey about that? Do you not DoW or fight wars? Do you not use naval combat?
 

Philostherogue

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Ok I totally give up its basically pointless. Wasted like 8 hrs trying over and over and over! I've probably tried it like 100 times today. can't get past 1470s.

1) unless Timurids attack early, you lose in 1446.

2) Even if you manage to take whole upper balkans, And ally with Naples, Poland, Austria, and Bohemia, OE completely destroys everything no matter what. I had full funding and got attacked by a 7k stack(without leader), my 12k stack which was ful morale, leader(though not a particularly good one), and I lost 12k! WTF! OE was outnumbered more than 2-1 at start of war, never lost a battle.

At start of war myself I had about 2/3rds of the army of OE, was way over my force limit in naval and troops (like 28k troops, and 25 galleys) might as well have had nothing. I had same military tech and everything.

Given all the lucky advantages OE gets, Byzantines need some sort of buff, or OE needs a bit of a nerf. AI OE shouldn't be able to just annihilate everything in europe by itself in the 1470s, let alone attacking with 1-2 odds.
 
Last edited:

Rabid

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Yeah the early OE armies are insane, vs. eastern troops I would lose any battle that wasn't 3-1 in my favour or 2-1 with terrain bonuses, luckily they eventually ran out of manpower and Poland took the brunt of it :p
 

Dawkins

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One thing though - AI often warns you not go to war, but this is very inconsistent. When it warns you at start (while he is at war with Albania), it has never any effect - you just go and conquer Serbia and Bosnia. But I lost 2 times just because I tried to conquer Wallachia lately - both times I thought that Ottomans would be too busy with their wars, but, surprisingly, both times they responded and attacked me. I don't understand this behavior - AI does not attack you despite of having cores, but when you attack someone under warning, AI joins, even though it has its war going.

Their warning only applies to nations with a land border with the Ottomans. So Bosnia does not apply. Not sure how you managed Serbia though, unless you didn't declare war directly on them.

Simple exploit to avoid the warning is just to warn the Ottomans first. You can't both warn each other, which seems a bit silly to me as I mentioned here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?758179-Paradox-please-consider-2-small-tweaks
 

aitaituo

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Update on my game, previously I had tripled in size by attacking Trebizond, Cyprus, and Venice and Rhodes defecting.

I beat the Ottomans single handedly and took back all my cores. No allies joined and my only vassal was Athens. Ottomans were joined by Crimea and Algiers. I didn't have to take any loans, although my treasury dropped from 250 to 50 and I had to fire two of my advisors.

It was hard (I nearly lost my fleet) and it took some luck (Mamlukes DoW'd Ottomans just as I finished occupying their European provinces), but I certainly don't think Byzantium needs any kind of buff.
 

Pilot00

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.. with horrible modifiers and still waiting to be conquered. which is good anyway. away with that dirty purple country.

I love it when comments are so constructive :eek:o