Please NO Tetragrammatic Cross for the Byzantines

[Byzantium2000]

Since there is alot of threads going around asking for more historical features, colors or flags I thought I would try my hand at it. "If you've come to hear to me beg you won't be disappointed"



The Tetragrammatic Cross should not be the flag of the Byzantine Empire in Ck3. This Symbol first appeared as an imperial sigil under the Palaiologos dynasty of Nicaea/Nicaea Byzantium in the late 1200s/ early 1300s. That is 200 years after Ck3's latest start date of 1066 used by a different Byzantium. It's like giving the Revolutionary era US the 50 stars.

So I would instead propose the equally iconic flag for Christian Rome the Chi Rho.

Used by the First Constantine and the Last this symbol was with the Byzantines from their foundation to their destruction. Not a necessity but I would say nothing represents the Empire better.

 

[Vistariel]

I concur with this sentiment.

 

[treb]

This

 

[Axis89]

Since there is alot of threads going around asking for more historical features, colors or flags I thought I would try my hand at it. "If you've come to hear to me beg you won't be disappointed"



The Tetragrammatic Cross should not be the flag of the Byzantine Empire in Ck3. This Symbol first appeared as an imperial sigil under the Palaiologos dynasty of Nicaea/Nicaea Byzantium in the late 1200s/ early 1300s. That is 200 years after Ck3's latest start date of 1066 used by a different Byzantium. It's like giving the Revolutionary era US the 50 stars.

So I would instead propose the equally iconic flag for Christian Rome the Chi Rho.

View attachment 543425

Used by the First Constantine and the Last this symbol was with the Byzantines from their foundation to their destruction. Not a necessity but I would say nothing represents the Empire better.

Waterproof argument, I agree. It is the closest thing to a historical symbol for the Eastern Romans/Byzantines, Emperor Constantine who moved the capital to what we know as Constantinople and the symbol was well used even in Palaiologos times. Still in use by the Catholic and Orthodox church on buildings and clothes etc.

 

[JSB217118]

If you get a late start date could you change the symbol to the Tetragrammatic Cross?

 

[Byzantium2000]

If you get a late start date could you change the symbol to the Tetragrammatic Cross?

I bet they could since Lombardy changes flags when it switches to Italy in Ck2.

 

[Kapitalisti]

I'd love to see the possibility of changin flags according to religion and culture. So a Christian Byzantium would have a different flag than a pagan one and a Saxon England would have a different flag than a Norman one.

 

[Ezumiyr]

The Tetragrammatic Cross should not be the flag of the Byzantine Empire in Ck3. This Symbol first appeared as an imperial sigil under the Palaiologos dynasty of Nicaea/Nicaea Byzantium in the late 1200s/ early 1300s. That is 200 years after Ck3's latest start date of 1066 used by a different Byzantium. It's like giving the Revolutionary era US the 50 stars.

I get what you're saying but your comparison isn't right.
In CK3 you also get to play the ERE in the 1200s and the 1300s. Maybe there are even start dates later than 1066.

And we have to put this in perspective. Almost all countries on the map changed their "flag" (when they even had one) during the very long timeline of the game. I agree that it would be cool if all flags changed accordingly to the time and dynasty in power.
However let's be real, this is probably not going to happen, so the devs have to find flags that belong to the appropriate era. And the ERE flag does.
Now since it's one of the most important countries on the map it could certainly get a special treatment.

It would be nice if all big kingdoms and empires had more appropriate flags depending on the era and dynasty, and also depending on religion and/or culture I guess, because why not.

 

[Vityviktor]

The same could be said about many of the coats of arms we see. The game starts before heraldry was developed and extended, and a lot of the coat of arms are anachronistic, but in the end it just make it easier.

It would be nice if all big kingdoms and empires had more appropriate flags depending on the era and dynasty, and also depending on religion and/or culture I guess, because why not.

In my opinion, this would be the better option. Adding CoA variants depending on religion/culture would be the best, but there would be a lot.

 

[Chlodio]

How about making a simple rule, they begin with Chi Rho, however, if the empire gets conquered and restored, it will use the tetragrammatic cross.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

I get what you're saying but your comparison isn't right.
In CK3 you also get to play the ERE in the 1200s and the 1300s. Maybe there are even start dates later than 1066.

And we have to put this in perspective. Almost all countries on the map changed their "flag" (when they even had one) during the very long timeline of the game. I agree that it would be cool if all flags changed accordingly to the time and dynasty in power.
However let's be real, this is probably not going to happen, so the devs have to find flags that belong to the appropriate era. And the ERE flag does.
Now since it's one of the most important countries on the map it could certainly get a special treatment.

It would be nice if all big kingdoms and empires had more appropriate flags depending on the era and dynasty, and also depending on religion and/or culture I guess, because why not.

I think you'll be hard-pressed to find another major realm that is using a flag unattested before the 13th Century in any form. Even if you look at the final form of the English flag (three lions passant) which only became the flag under Richard I at the end of the 12th Century it's preceded by a number of other flags also all golden lions on red.

The current Byzantine flag is not the "ERE" flag by any stretch, it's totally anachronistic, and only suitable for a reconstituted ERE which modern historians consider to be a less than complete continuation of the Eastern Roman Empire felled in the 4th Crusade.

 

[Bearnest]

a Saxon England would have a different flag than a Norman one.

Even if you look at the final form of the English flag (three lions passant) which only became the flag under Richard I at the end of the 12th Century it's preceded by a number of other flags also all golden lions on red.

Yes! We want the white dragon for pre-Norman England

 

[Despotism]

If Hellenism is in at launch or added later, a Hellenic Byzantine Empire should probably change its flag to something else as well.

 

[Byzantium2000]

I get what you're saying but your comparison isn't right.
In CK3 you also get to play the ERE in the 1200s and the 1300s. Maybe there are even start dates later than 1066.

And we have to put this in perspective. Almost all countries on the map changed their "flag" (when they even had one) during the very long timeline of the game. I agree that it would be cool if all flags changed accordingly to the time and dynasty in power.
However let's be real, this is probably not going to happen, so the devs have to find flags that belong to the appropriate era. And the ERE flag does.
Now since it's one of the most important countries on the map it could certainly get special treatment.

It would be nice if all big kingdoms and empires had more appropriate flags depending on the era and dynasty, and also depending on religion and/or culture I guess, because why not.

But there isn’t a Post 1066 start and just cause you can play till the 1400s doesn’t mean the flag should change. The first solid attested official use of this flag is under Andronikos Palaiologos II of the Palaiologos Byzantine Empire. The Flag isn’t connected to the Byzantine Roman Empire or even a restored Empire But the Palaiologos Dynasty.

The Chi Rho was used the entire time period and I’d argue the Tetragrammatic Cross represents the EU4 Empire and period instead.

Realistically the flag should only change to the 4 Bs if the Palaiologos manage to “restore the Empire” in a post 1204 start or a 1261 start is added. Like how Charlemagne’s Hre gets different flags in Ck2 I think that would be a cool idea for a dynamic restored Byzantium to have a different flag depending on whether Komnenos Trebizond, Doukas Epirus or Laskaris Nicaea Forms the Empire. Just an idea of course not a necessity in comparison to the title.

Tetra is Iconic But I’d Say Chi Rho equally so and far more accurate.

2 headed eagles for Hellenic Byzantines to distinguish from 1 Eagle Rome could probably work if Hellenism is added back.

Also cool rug of the Emperors Personal Labarum from the 10th Century. Chi Rho was being rocked on imperial furniture all the way to the fall.

 

[Chlodio]

Realistically the flag should only change to the 4 Bs if the Palaiologos manage to “restore the Empire” in a post 1204 start or a 1261 start is added. Like how Charlemagne’s Hre gets different flags in Ck2 I think that would be a cool idea for a dynamic restored Byzantium to have a different flag depending on whether Komnenos Trebizond, Doukas Epirus or Laskaris Nicaea Forms the Empire. Just an idea of course not a necessity in comparison to the title.

A thing which CK2 gets very wrong is that each non-barony title has a static coat of arms, when in reality they would have used the ruler's personal coat of arms. The exception would be the "arms of dominion", exclusive to some kingdoms where the coat of arms of the long-ruling dynasty became associated with the kingdom itself and continued to be used even after the dynasty itself ceased to exist.

In this case, an ideal solution here would be to create a mechanic where some kingdoms start off with the arms of dominion and some not. But if the same dynasty rules the kingdom for...say a century, their coat of arms become the kingdom's arm of dominion. Regardless of if the kingdom started with the arms of dominion or obtained them, their arms of dominion should be lost when the title is destroyed and re-created.

 

[SigurdStormhand]

Yes! We want the white dragon for pre-Norman England

Actually, it's a red dragon on a white field, or possibly a yellow one.

 

[Prince Ire]

If Hellenism is in at launch or added later, a Hellenic Byzantine Empire should probably change its flag to something else as well.

Hellenism shouldn't be in the game at all.

 

[Sh4ark]

Since we're going that far, can we also please rename the empire from "byzantine" to its actual name, pre Charlemagne and pre-Hieronymus name - Easter Roman Empire, or maybe even simply the Roman Empire?

 

[Masternachos]

Since we're going that far, can we also please rename the empire from "byzantine" to its actual name, pre Charlemagne and pre-Hieronymus name - Easter Roman Empire, or maybe even simply the Roman Empire?

Someone should start a thread on that.

 

[Byzantium2000]

Since we're going that far, can we also please rename the empire from "byzantine" to its actual name, pre Charlemagne and pre-Hieronymus name - Easter Roman Empire, or maybe even simply the Roman Empire?

Sorry man but there’s already a thread for that and it’s not really related to the Empire’s Symbol so I would like to remain on topic.