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TheDungen

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That is not exactly what was established. Of course they are allowed to have whatever message the creator wishes, it is the way the message is presented to make something art, the message itself is only tangentially relevant. It is a very nuanced issue. One can have a game that is artistic, provides an overall interesting setting and a compelling story, and has some issues treated in an interesting way, with the exception of one or two of these issues, which have been forced in just to push a narrative.
This does not make the whole game propaganda (especially if the issues in question are not directly related to the main plot), on that I agree with you, but they devalue the game nonetheless.
This not because some issues should not be treated in the first place, but because the way in which they are treated is pandering, thus boring or annoying the spectator. This is particularly true in rpgs, since a pushed narrative can be very easily identifiable by a sudden lack of choices (or meaningful choices) for the player.
I really don't see this in the games mentioned, I really disliked dragon age 2, but I never felt it pushed any agenda. Except trying to be darker and edgier. And I don't think that's what you're talking about, someone mentioned gay characters but making characters bi is opening up more choices for the player not restricting him.
 
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And I don't think that's what you're talking about, someone mentioned gay characters but making characters bi is opening up more choices for the player not restricting him.
On the contrary, it is making the choices meaningless, it only gives the illusion of more choices. It makes the choice of the player character's gender ininfluential and cheapens the depth of the companions, it makes them empty shells that have no agency and genuine personality. It is the same argument as those who say "we're creating more words, therefore we're increasing freedom of speech."

If I find myself with two dialogue wheels, the options of the first one are:
-Yes.
-No.

and the options of the second one are:
-Yes.
-I think so.
-I guess...
-Hmpf, fine.

Which one is giving me more choices?
 

TheDungen

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On the contrary, it is making the choices meaningless, it only gives the illusion of more choices. It makes the choice of the player character's gender ininfluential and cheapens the depth of the companions, it makes them empty shells that have no agency and genuine personality. It is the same argument as those who say "we're creating more words, therefore we're increasing freedom of speech."

If I find myself with two dialogue wheels, the options of the first one are:
-Yes.
-No.

and the options of the second one are:
-Yes.
-I think so.
-I guess...
-Hmpf, fine.

Which one is giving me more choices?
Except you are allowed to answer no to this, no one is forcing you to play your character as gay. And quite frankly romance in games is usually meaningless as a whole, regardless if it's straight gay or bi. There's an entire thread about that.
 
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Silfae

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Except you are allowed to answer no to this, no one is forcing you to play your character as gay.
But the game is forcing the npc to be in love with the character, regardless of their respective gender. It is a nullification of part of a character's personality, it takes away their uniqueness and makes them tools at the service of the player, rather than companions of the protagonist.
If we compare the setup of DA2 with the one for DA:I the point becomes clear: Solas is not going to fall in love with a character that is not female and elven, Cassandra is not going to fall in love with a character that is not male, and so forth. The choice that I make at the very start of the game influences my experience in the game, characters react differently to different kinds characters.
 

TheDungen

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But the game is forcing the npc to be in love with the character, regardless of their respective gender. It is a nullification of part of a character's personality, it takes away their uniqueness and makes them tools at the service of the player, rather than companions of the protagonist.
If we compare the setup of DA2 with the one for DA:I the point becomes clear: Solas is not going to fall in love with a character that is not female and elven, Cassandra is not going to fall in love with a character that is not male, and so forth. The choice that I make at the very start of the game influences my experience in the game, characters react differently to different kinds characters.
But the same can be said for the strait only ones, Williams in mass effect 1 will always have a crush on male shepard (atleast until you romance liara), kaidan will asfaik always have a crush on femshep. It's again more the fact that games does romance badly at least games with open ended story telling.
 
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Silfae

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But the same can be said for the strait only ones, Williams in mass effect 1 will always have a crush on male shepard (atleast until you romance liara), kaidan will asfaik always have a crush on femshep. It's again more the fact that games does romance badly at least games with open ended story telling.
That is not the same, because if you choose to play as femshep, Williams doesn't spontaneously turn gay just to fall in love with your character. The fact that Liara instead can be romanced by both genders is not a problem, because that is part of what she is (same could be said of Isabella in DA2): it is not an arbitrary rewriting of the laws of the universe to force a particular situation, it is what can naturally happen in the context of a specific setting regarding two or more specific characters.
 

TheDungen

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That is not the same, because if you choose to play as femshep, Williams doesn't spontaneously turn gay just to fall in love with your character. The fact that Liara instead can be romanced by both genders is not a problem, because that is part of what she is (same could be said of Isabella in DA2): it is not an arbitrary rewriting of the laws of the universe to force a particular situation, it is what can naturally happen in the context of a specific setting regarding two or more specific characters.
Who says they arbitrarily tun gay? They are probably bi in either of the story line and that is part of who they are just like Liara. In fact Anders is always bi, you meet one of his ex lovers in a side quest after all, the question would in that case be why he suddenly turns strait when you play a female character. But like I said I don't think that's the case I think he's always bi. Just like Sevran is always bi in dragon age origins.

Honestly DA2s "everyone is bi" is probably more a result of them launching the game before it was ready rather than some SJW thing pushing. It feels like classic EA cutting corners. Especially with the one none bi character in the game being added in a DLC.
 
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. In fact Anders is always bi, you meet one of his ex lovers in a side quest after all, the question would in that case be why he suddenly turns strait when you play a female character.
Not always, only if you're female.
And no, they are not, it was officially stated that the characters are Hawkesexual by the developers (except Isabella).
 

TheDungen

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Not always, only if you're female.
And no, they are not, it was officially stated that the characters are Hawkesexual by the developers (except Isabella).
First of source. Also again I again chalk this down to the game being pushed out half finished.. it's clear why they did it, so that they could have as many romance options as possible without having to actually write any more characters or dialogue. The romance game in DA2 is very limited even by game stanrdards and restricting the choices even more would have made that even more glaringly obvious. It's pretty obvious it's a fix due to their production time getting cut, not some conspiracy to pus a political agenda. After all you're complaining that a really a really bad game, from a franchise and company that is known for having bad romance mechanics has really bad romance mechanics.
"Never assume malice when incompetence will suffice"
 
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let's take a second to think about this:
it's obsidian, so they tend to deal in greys, the dark option tends to have a silver lining, the light option tends to have a hidden darkness.
it is a game about being evil, in medieval western europe this meant raping and pillaging the nobility (middle class and peasants it was fine to do so), which is unlikely to have little enough flak to be profitable.
certain political/social ideals are heavily polarized in modern western culture/politics resulting in the majority of people considering something like killing puppies to be evil.

so either obsidian will break from it's normal story writing and have you be truly evil (or at least supporting it), such as raping and pillaging along with wholesale slaughter of innocents (and thus getting banned in several countries), or they will stick to their guns and have you do some cultural/political taboos that in most cultures around the world consider to be fine (and at least hinting at why it is justified).

so i'd bet on yes, there will be political/social rubbish, the question is if you notice it (and i'd bet that if you do you will still enjoy the game, it is obsidian after all).
 

Silfae

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First of source. Also again I again chalk this down to the game being pushed out half finished.. it's clear why they did it, so that they could have as many romance options as possible without having to actually write any more characters or dialogue. The romance game in DA2 is very limited even by game stanrdards and restricting the choices even more would have made that even more glaringly obvious. It's pretty obvious it's a fix due to their production time getting cut, not some conspiracy to pus a political agenda. After all you're complaining that a really a really bad game, from a franchise and company that is known for having bad romance mechanics has really bad romance mechanics.
"Never assume malice when incompetence will suffice"
I never said it was "malice" in this case, I agree it is the result of poor writing (which, by the way, is my main qualm in this discussion). The fact that it was caused by lack of founding/time is also clear by the official statement (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-25-dragon-age-ii-writer-defends-romances). The lead writer did not make the characters switch sexual orientation depending on the gender of the player character because of a political agenda, though he did try to justify the cheap writing dismissing his critics by implying they were homophobes.

Yet, I wasn't the one to use Dragon Age 2 romances as an example of my previous point. You brought them up to go against it. But the example becomes invalid if the choice of making everyone Hawkesexual is due to economic reasons rather than ideological ones.
As for why it is still a cheap solution, let me turn it using a less sensitive subject:

Player Character starts as a Warrior.
He meets Companion X.
Companion X is a Mage. He's soft-spoken, grew into a school of magic, has a nimble body and a cautious and rational attitude.

Player Character starts as a Mage.
He meets Companion X.
Companion X is a Warrior. Yet, he's soft-spoken, grew into a school of magic, has a nimble body and a cautious and rational attitude.

Why is he a Warrior this time? Well, obviously, the party would be unbalanced if he were a Mage. One cannot simply change an important part of a character's life and leave everything else, as if doing so would not deeply influence his attitude and background.

In any case, as said above, the example of DA2 is just derailing the topic at this point, since it was clearly and admittedly caused not by political views but by economic necessities.

let's take a second to think about this:
it's obsidian, so they tend to deal in greys, the dark option tends to have a silver lining, the light option tends to have a hidden darkness.
it is a game about being evil, in medieval western europe this meant raping and pillaging the nobility (middle class and peasants it was fine to do so), which is unlikely to have little enough flak to be profitable.
certain political/social ideals are heavily polarized in modern western culture/politics resulting in the majority of people considering something like killing puppies to be evil.

so either obsidian will break from it's normal story writing and have you be truly evil (or at least supporting it), such as raping and pillaging along with wholesale slaughter of innocents (and thus getting banned in several countries), or they will stick to their guns and have you do some cultural/political taboos that in most cultures around the world consider to be fine (and at least hinting at why it is justified).

so i'd bet on yes, there will be political/social rubbish, the question is if you notice it (and i'd bet that if you do you will still enjoy the game, it is obsidian after all).
That depends, in the past Obsidian did allow the player to go into truly evil or truly good paths.
 

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let's take a second to think about this:
it's obsidian, so they tend to deal in greys, the dark option tends to have a silver lining, the light option tends to have a hidden darkness.
it is a game about being evil, in medieval western europe this meant raping and pillaging the nobility (middle class and peasants it was fine to do so), which is unlikely to have little enough flak to be profitable.
certain political/social ideals are heavily polarized in modern western culture/politics resulting in the majority of people considering something like killing puppies to be evil.

so either obsidian will break from it's normal story writing and have you be truly evil (or at least supporting it), such as raping and pillaging along with wholesale slaughter of innocents (and thus getting banned in several countries), or they will stick to their guns and have you do some cultural/political taboos that in most cultures around the world consider to be fine (and at least hinting at why it is justified).

so i'd bet on yes, there will be political/social rubbish, the question is if you notice it (and i'd bet that if you do you will still enjoy the game, it is obsidian after all).
But unless their game actually takes place in medieval western europe that is a null point, if it's only inspired by it then it's not relevant because they chose what they want to portray. They create a universe they add how people behave in that universe.
Also don't get suckered into the dung ages trope that's not really true. People back then also knew rape was wrong, just like most people do today but some do it anyway, especially in war zones. Do you need a justification to why the protagonist in you average AAA shooter does not rape and pillage?
 
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Also don't get suckered into the dung ages trope that's not really true. People back then also knew rape was wrong
Right, because the perception of what constitutes rape did not change at all during the course of history...
 

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Right, because the perception of what constitutes rape did not change at all during the course of history...
Indeed it did but if you think that was a linear progression than you're fooling yourself. We've been over this, women had more rights back in the medieval times than they did during the renaissance and even the enlightenment. Before Machiavelli a lot of the rulers of europe really believed in the just ruler archetype that they were meant to emulated the biblical kings, if you read about the period and not realize this then you won't really understand their actions, another example is the crusades, it's very common to think of them as a power grab or a conquest spree, but when the pope promised their sins would be forgiven that was a big deal to them. The same can be said for a lot of political issues, not that they were better in those specific times but that they fluctuated throughout history for different reasons. Often as simple as what was trendy to think at that point of time.
 
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Indeed it did but if you think that was a linear progression than you're fooling yourself. We've been over this, women had more rights back in the medieval times than they did during the renaissance and even the enlightenment. Before Machiavelli a lot of the rulers of europe really believed in the just ruler archetype that they were meant to emulated the biblical kings, if you read about the period and not realize this then you won't really understand their actions, another example is the crusades, it's very common to think of them as a power grab or a conquest spree, but when the pope promised their sins would be forgiven that was a big deal to them. The same can be said for a lot of political issues, not that they were better in those specific times but that they fluctuated throughout history for different reasons. Often as simple as what was trendy to think at that point of time.
Yes, but all of these points, even including the oversimplifications and questionable statemens, still do not deny my point.
 

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Yes, but all of these points, even including the oversimplifications and questionable statemens, still do not deny my point.
Actually yeah it does.

And again, their universe their rules, it's not pushing political agenda down your throat that they do not include things that you want included. That's more along the lines of your own entitlement.
 
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Actually yeah it does.
Well, first of all the ideals of "biblical kings" already implies quite the backwards stance on this particular subject, what does the Bible tell us about the place of a woman in society, in her marriage, and the "punishment" of a rapist? That is regardless of course of the applications, interpretations, presumption and de facto state of western nobility at the time. Furthermore it doesn't take at all into account the behavior of the other, lower social classes.
Secondly, you talk about Machiavelli, but seem to imply that he had some sort of global impact on the behavior of all social classes, which is patently false, considering how the contemporary and future critics of his political work bashed him time and again. This is without going into the fact that the Prince is a purely political work that, first of all does not tackle social issues, and second of all was written as a manual to facilitate the unification of Italy, with no pretense to change society. Lastly, though this is something that is often ignored by the critics of the time (and modern) as well, Machiavelli himself, in the work, condemns cruel acts as well (again, for pragmatic reasons, since his work was not about ethics, it was about pure politics). Finally, his work has nothing to do with the subject in question.
Thirdly, you talk about the Crusades, which, again, really have nothing to do with the issue in question, not mentioning that the spiritual drive progressively waned as we move forward in time (the knights of the Fourth Crusade surely cared about what the Pope thought of them...), not mentioning that the First Crusade itself was also imbued with other political factors (dealing with the Normans, relationship with the Eastern Empire, etc.) and so forth.

Even if we forsake all nuance and correct representation of the context and take into account your examples as they are, that still doesn't deny my point: the perception of what constitutes rape today is different from what it was in previous times of history. Because in your first statment you seemed to imply that medieval people had our same perception on the matter, which is hutterly ridiculous.

Finally, like the issue of romance in DA2, this has nothing at all to do with the topic, the argument that "if the setting is fantasy, then anything can be made up" has been already discussed in detail before. An iron age-level society of humans can follow different paths from the historical one, with both natural and supernatural factors making it diverge, but, as long as it remains a society of humans, what is the norm for iron age humans must be taken into account, and any divergence from the norm must be justified in the context of the setting, in order to create a realistic environment.

And again, their universe their rules, it's not pushing political agenda down your throat that they do not include things that you want included. That's more along the lines of your own entitlement.
That is not the point, I would urge you to re-read our previous discussion on the matter.

Character X lives in a fictional medieval setting.
Character X has spikey purple hair.
Do other characters have them? No.
Do other characters find it weird? No.
Do other characters even talk about it? No, he just has spikey purple hair.
Did I forget to mention that the author of Character X, in real life, is a member of a Spikey Purple Hair Activists group?

I do not care that Character X has spikey purple hair, or that an author wants to create a story with a character with spikey purple hair, they are free to do so, and the introduction of a character with spikey purple hair in itself does not automatically make a work better or worse. I care about how said character is forced with no explanation in a place where he doesn't belong to and treated by the rest of the characters and setting as if it was something normal.
 
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Well, first of all the ideals of "biblical kings" already implies quite the backwards stance on this particular subject, what does the Bible tell us about the place of a woman in society, in her marriage, and the "punishment" of a rapist? That is regardless of course of the applications, interpretations, presumption and de facto state of western nobility at the time. Furthermore it doesn't take at all into account the behavior of the other, lower social classes.
Secondly, you talk about Machiavelli, but seem to imply that he had some sort of global impact on the behavior of all social classes, which is patently false, considering how the contemporary and future critics of his political work bashed him time and again. This is without going into the fact that the Prince is a purely political work that, first of all does not tackle social issues, and second of all was written as a manual to facilitate the unification of Italy, with no pretense to change society. Lastly, though this is something that is often ignored by the critics of the time (and modern) as well, Machiavelli himself, in the work, condemns cruel acts as well (again, for pragmatic reasons, since his work was not about ethics, it was about pure politics). Finally, his work has nothing to do with the subject in question.
Thirdly, you talk about the Crusades, which, again, really have nothing to do with the issue in question, not mentioning that the spiritual drive progressively waned as we move forward in time (the knights of the Fourth Crusade surely cared about what the Pope thought of them...), not mentioning that the First Crusade itself was also imbued with other political factors (dealing with the Normans, relationship with the Eastern Empire, etc.) and so forth.

Even if we forsake all nuance and correct representation of the context and take into account your examples as they are, that still doesn't deny my point: the perception of what constitutes rape today is different from what it was in previous times of history. Because in your first statment you seemed to imply that medieval people had our same perception on the matter, which is hutterly ridiculous.

Finally, like the issue of romance in DA2, this has nothing at all to do with the topic, the argument that "if the setting is fantasy, then anything can be made up" has been already discussed in detail before. An iron age-level society of humans can follow different paths from the historical one, with both natural and supernatural factors making it diverge, but, as long as it remains a society of humans, what is the norm for iron age humans must be taken into account, and any divergence from the norm must be justified in the context of the setting, in order to create a realistic environment.


That is not the point, I would urge you to re-read our previous discussion on the matter.

Character X lives in a fictional medieval setting.
Character X has spikey purple hair.
Do other characters have them? No.
Do other characters find it weird? No.
Do other characters even talk about it? No, he just has spikey purple hair.
Did I forget to mention that the author of Character X, in real life, is a member of a Spikey Purple Hair Activists group?

I do not care that Character X has spikey purple hair, or that an author wants to create a story with a character with spikey purple hair, they are free to do so, and the introduction of a character with spikey purple hair in itself does not automatically make a work better or worse. I care about how said character is forced with no explanation in a place where he doesn't belong to and treated by the rest of the characters and setting as if it was something normal.
Because it is something normal in the setting. It's you who want it to conform to your political views, you problem never was with politics in games your problem was with opinions other than your own in video games. If you can't take a step back from that then you're simply not worth arguing with.
And even then it's not a political statement you have a problem with it's the lack of a political statement in the issue, but guess what less is more, anything that is not relevant to the plot it wasted time when you make games. And adding rape because rape existed in very era of mankind is pointless if it does nothing to move the plot forward.

Willing suspension of disbelief is not the case here, that only requires a setting to be consistent with it's own rules, not consistent with some world that has nothing to do with it (ours). If our past has been the slightest bit different everything would have turned out differently. We discussed this in the stellaris forums, it's a limitation of the human mind to imagine that every society would develop simliarly to our but it's pretty much a lie, change one thing in the past and the whole of history diverges. Even a thing like adding magic or another intelligent species in our past would greatly change the present. But a setting that is not our world starts at different initial conditions, thus their path cannot be predicted at all.

I mean there are a crap ton of things that are different, most fantasy settings exist in a state of medieval stasis, why don't you complain about that, instead you chose one rather arbitrary thing to get pissed about and then complain that people are pushing ideology on you. The truth is that if you're looking for a reason to be offended by a work then you'll almost always find a work that offends you in some way.
 
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Because it is something normal in the setting.
That depends on the setting one is talking about.
It's you who want it to conform to your political views, you problem never was with politics in games your problem was with opinions other than your own in video games.
Citation needed.
And even then it's not a political statement you have a problem with it's the lack of a political statement in the issue, but guess what less is more, anything that is not relevant to the plot it wasted time when you make games. And adding rape because rape existed in very era of mankind is pointless if it does nothing to move the plot forward.
Wrong on both accounts.
First of all, clarification for a certain feature does not necessarely require a political statement or a social cause, it could be ascribed to other biological, geographical or metaphysical factors. The forced unexplained issue itself might not be a social one, as exemplified by my last hypothetic scenario.
Secondly, in videogames, especially rpgs (amongst other genres), exploring the setting through minor quests (which may or may not be related to the main plot) and through self-concluded interactions with npcs and the world itself is instrumental to create immersion.
 
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