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Nick B II

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The difference between a Med galley and a Viking longship is not that significant. As for captains and crews, I suggest that the reason they didn't have any was because they never conquered (at least for very long) what is now Portugal, where they could have learned these skills; not because Islam forbids acquiring such knowledge.
Agreed.

This is perfectly simulated by having actual ships, with techs simulating the crew's expertise and the vessels abilities.
However, I suggest that the exact causes are not that important, compared to finding an abstraction that will reproduce the historical problems. Whether you're right, I'm right, or we're both right, on the subject of why the Moslems never sailed to Norway, is not important, because in either case the game can reflect it with my distance-attrition suggestion. The way for the Moslems to get out into the Atlantic, under this model, is to conquer Atlantic ports so that their attrition won't be in the tens of percent. And this nicely reflects both the supply problem that I suggest, and the captains-and-crews problem that you suggest: The way to get supplies is to have naval bases, and the way to get crews is also to have naval bases in the relevant waters. So the abstraction I suggest covers both causes without requiring much additional code.
The problem with any solely attrition-based model is that it allows a rich Moslem lord to invade Norway simply by hiring 50,000 troops. Which he could do in CK1 just by owning Alexandria.

Distance-based attrition is also problematic because it doesn't allow for the huge advantage a Med power using southern Portugal as a base would have over a Med power using Morocco's Med coast. The Power restricted to Morocco should probably not be able to invade anything further then Lisbon. But once they conquer Lisbon...

Nick
 

Nick B II

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Off topic, but why the repeated usage of 'Moslem' in lieu of Muslim in your posts?
Poor spelling.

Moslem is closer to the way I say it, so that's the way it sounds in my head, so that's the way I spell it when I'm not being really careful. Apparently I haven't had spellcheck turned on for this entire thread, either, because that usually fixes it. King of Men seems to suffer from the same problem, because he's been making the same mistake.

Nick
 

Nis Baggesen

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I do not see a problem with naval units.
Why not to argue that we do not need fleet in EU/Vicky than?

I would assume that the main problem with naval units is the AI. In particular I would think the coordination between land units and sea units is problematic. This in turn makes it hard for the AI to stage proper naval invasions etc. Some solution can be found to those problems, but the question wil always be if it is worth the development effort and AI clock cycles if another simpler system can provide much of the same gameplay and simulation.

Why have a fleets in EU/Vicky then? Because they cover periods that are justifiably called the Age of Sail and the Age of Steam? Because they involve several ocean spanning empires? Because control of the sea was an actual military and political doctrine? Because these periods were characterised saw other ship related activities like exploration, ocean spanning trade, colonization, blockades and gunboat diplomacy? And even in these games, given this (IMO greater) importance of ships and shipping there are A) problems with the way the AI handles ship units and B) very important stuff like ship trade that is left out of the model.
 

Niko92

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Off topic, but why the repeated usage of 'Moslem' in lieu of Muslim in your posts?
According to wikipedia:
The ordinary word in English is "Muslim", pronounced /ˈmʊslɪm/ or /ˈmʌzləm/. The word is pronounced [ˈmʊslɪm] in Arabic. It is sometimes transliterated as "Moslem", which is an older spelling.

On topic: I don't mind the absence of naval units as a separate unit, but I'd very much like naval battles. I found it silly when two opposing armies just sailed past each other without a worry.
 

Nis Baggesen

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Agreed.

This is perfectly simulated by having actual ships, with techs simulating the crew's expertise and the vessels abilities.

If you would want to simulate actual ships

The problem with any solely attrition-based model is that it allows a rich Moslem lord to invade Norway simply by hiring 50,000 troops. Which he could do in CK1 just by owning Alexandria.

Distance-based attrition is also problematic because it doesn't allow for the huge advantage a Med power using southern Portugal as a base would have over a Med power using Morocco's Med coast. The Power restricted to Morocco should probably not be able to invade anything further then Lisbon. But once they conquer Lisbon...

Nick

How exactly would a unit based system solve those two issues? Whatever you may argue it wasn't naval battles that kept muslims out of Norway. Even if there was a unit system nothing would prevent a rich muslim lord from building enough ships to get through. EU3 demonstrates quite clearly that even with a unit based model the Ottoman Empire is happy to conquer the Livonian Order in the Baltics. And true, EU3 does not have attrition for the AI and that is part of it, but that would seem to demonstrate that it is the attrition and naval distance bit that is important and not the unit modelling. At least for the problems with strange conquests in far off parts.

Techs representing vessel capabilitites (and I would argue there is a significant difference between a norther clinker built galley/longship and a mediterranean carval built galley) and crew experience would work just as well on a model based on cost, distance limits and attrition. These things could also limit the maximal ship pool (representing a lack of able seamen or a lesser naval tradition).

A unit based model might be a closer simulation of the logistical problems of coordinating fleets and armies, and getting the right crew and all those things. But those are also exactly the issues that it would be hard for the AI to tackle nicely. So you might end up with something more wacky, not less. You would get sea battles - but are they important enough and would they feel right? Are units the only way to model them - certainly not.

Part (if not most ) of what kept the Muslims out of Norways was probably also pure motivation. Why on earth would they want to go there? There was no prestige in it (were as going the other way was a glorious crusade to the holy land). There was no money in it. It was not the easiest way to win the war. All of those motivations should really have a lot more impact on what the AI chooses to do on the overall strategic and diplomatic level. That seems like a much more important and interesting focus area to me, than building a better naval simulator.
 

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I don't mind the absence of naval units as a separate unit, but I'd very much like naval battles. I found it silly when two opposing armies just sailed past each other without a worry.
I dare say this happened quite frequently.

Of course, if both fleets were sailing in opposite directions following the same coastline they would probably encounter each other; I have no idea whether they would then be capable of fighting, but without long range guns I imagine that it ought to be pretty easy for either side to avoid battle if it wished even if it meant having to sail in a completely different direction to do so.

For ships crossing open sea, it is highly unlikely they would even see each other. The horizon is about 17 km away if you are 20 m above the surface of the sea, and I doubt ships of the time had lookouts posted so high. In theory, someone 20 m up in one ship would see the pennant flying from the top of the 20 m high mast in another ship from 34 km away, but this would need perfect conditions, and there were no telescopes in this time period.
 

Meanmanturbo

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Im a bit split on the issue. On one hand hiring fleets from the merchant republics makes for interesting mechanics. And most of Europe's feudal realms never possessed any real naval assets. On the other hand I find it quite silly for for example Scandinavian needing to hire fleets from Venice to bop around the Baltic bashing pagans. Firstly there was the liedang ship levy, conscription based around ships and ship-crews and secondly, what would Mediterranean galleys do that far up north in the first place?
 

RedRooster81

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Im a bit split on the issue. On one hand hiring fleets from the merchant republics makes for interesting mechanics. And most of Europe's feudal realms never possessed any real naval assets. On the other hand I find it quite silly for for example Scandinavian needing to hire fleets from Venice to bop around the Baltic bashing pagans. Firstly there was the liedang ship levy, conscription based around ships and ship-crews and secondly, what would Mediterranean galleys do that far up north in the first place?

In that interview that King gave at the Paradox convention in NYC, he did say that kingdoms will have their own transport fleets but these would be on the small size. Maybe it will be a derived value, modified by coastline or something similar? I imagine we'll get a DD on this some day.
 

Nick B II

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How exactly would a unit based system solve those two issues? Whatever you may argue it wasn't naval battles that kept muslims out of Norway. Even if there was a unit system nothing would prevent a rich muslim lord from building enough ships to get through.
You're missing a key part a key part of the idea.

Going to the north sea requires technology that Muslims and other Mediterranean powers don't possess. Acquiring the tech without actually conquering a province that already has it is very difficult.

The way this would manifest in-game is that if your province doesn't have "North Sea Trade Routes" as a tech the ships you buy their can't leave the Mediterranean.
Techs representing vessel capabilitites (and I would argue there is a significant difference between a norther clinker built galley/longship and a mediterranean carval built galley) and crew experience would work just as well on a model based on cost, distance limits and attrition. These things could also limit the maximal ship pool (representing a lack of able seamen or a lesser naval tradition).
So how're you gonna model that a Med power based in Alexandria can land in Gibralter, but a Med power based in the Balearics can't land in Brittany?

I haven't calculated the exact distances, but by eyeball they look comparable.
A unit based model might be a closer simulation of the logistical problems of coordinating fleets and armies, and getting the right crew and all those things. But those are also exactly the issues that it would be hard for the AI to tackle nicely. So you might end up with something more wacky, not less. You would get sea battles - but are they important enough and would they feel right? Are units the only way to model them - certainly not.
Alternatives exist.

Trouble is they all seem to be based on attrition, which is also easy for the AI to handle, and if they're based on distance they have to a) keep Eastern and Western Med powers from ever fighting, because it's a big Sea, or b) allow North Africans to invade Ireland.
Part (if not most ) of what kept the Muslims out of Norways was probably also pure motivation. Why on earth would they want to go there? There was no prestige in it (were as going the other way was a glorious crusade to the holy land). There was no money in it. It was not the easiest way to win the war. All of those motivations should really have a lot more impact on what the AI chooses to do on the overall strategic and diplomatic level. That seems like a much more important and interesting focus area to me, than building a better naval simulator.
In CK1 every time anybody complained about the Sheik of Praha Paradox would claim Muslim incursions into Europe were necesary for game balance reasons, because the decision to invade Egypt should be risky for a player.

Do you really believe those guys are gonna write an AI that allows the player to declare war at no risk, because Muslims stay home?

Moreover since in Paradox games the only way to win most wars is take the enemy's provinces do you really think they're gonna write an AI that refuses to take your provinces?

Nick
 

Nick B II

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I dare say this happened quite frequently.
I can’t think of any examples.

But I can’t think of any cases where both sides were trying to amphibiously invade each-other at the same time, either. Usually somebody decided to play defense.

Unfortunately in CK2 such invasions will be par for the course.
Of course, if both fleets were sailing in opposite directions following the same coastline they would probably encounter each other; I have no idea whether they would then be capable of fighting, but without long range guns I imagine that it ought to be pretty easy for either side to avoid battle if it wished even if it meant having to sail in a completely different direction to do so.
That depends on the wind.

Even if you’re a galley with all you’re sails down, turning 180 degrees, bleeding off your momentum, and building up momentum going the other way is gonna take time. If you’re a 20-ship fleet of sailing ships and you’re being blown into a 50-ship fleet you’re pretty screwed. Your best bet is probably to work the angles (ie: if we change our course 20 degrees and they don't notice for an hour we'll miss them completely).
For ships crossing open sea, it is highly unlikely they would even see each other. The horizon is about 17 km away if you are 20 m above the surface of the sea, and I doubt ships of the time had lookouts posted so high. In theory, someone 20 m up in one ship would see the pennant flying from the top of the 20 m high mast in another ship from 34 km away, but this would need perfect conditions, and there were no telescopes in this time period.
One ship finding another would be unlikely.

OTOH the Battle of Sluis involved 300 vessels. A 150-ship fleet can cover a lot of water. Especially since somebody’s liable to get lucky and get intel from a fishing boat.’

Nick
 

Nick B II

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In that interview that King gave at the Paradox convention in NYC, he did say that kingdoms will have their own transport fleets but these would be on the small size. Maybe it will be a derived value, modified by coastline or something similar? I imagine we'll get a DD on this some day.
Do you have a link to that interview?

As for Scandinavian fleets, I'd imagine that in Venice has a fleet Sweden will have one too.

Nick
 

RedRooster81

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Do you have a link to that interview?

As for Scandinavian fleets, I'd imagine that in Venice has a fleet Sweden will have one too.

Nick

Nick,

See King's interview here, at time range 4:30. "You have a set amount of ships as the King of England to ferry men about. If you really want to ship an army off to the Holy Land, you're talking to Venice or Genoa." That is my quick transcript. He did say it was up to change, something still in the works as of January 20, 2011. But I figure that the more maritime feudal realms should have enough shipping capacity to put down local rebellions and the like (so, the King of Aragon can send a levied army to Mallorca, but a bigger expedition, say to conquer Algeria, should involve more planning).

But he is clear: NO NAVAL BATTLES.
 

Nis Baggesen

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You're missing a key part a key part of the idea.

Going to the north sea requires technology that Muslims and other Mediterranean powers don't possess. Acquiring the tech without actually conquering a province that already has it is very difficult.

Actually I was arguing that anything that had to do with technology could be worked in to another non unit based naval system as well. Anything that has to do with province control can also be worked into a non unit based system.

The way this would manifest in-game is that if your province doesn't have "North Sea Trade Routes" as a tech the ships you buy their can't leave the Mediterranean.

So how're you gonna model that a Med power based in Alexandria can land in Gibralter, but a Med power based in the Balearics can't land in Brittany?

I haven't calculated the exact distances, but by eyeball they look comparable.

Several ways. Using a tech system similar to the in CK1 (ei, tech is tied to provinces) I would simply let Alexandria have the "Ocean going rigging", "Naval tradition" etc. technologies and not put them in the Baelerics. If you want further limits some naval range modifiers could be tied to army culture etc (to represent the naval culture of the actual army doing the crossing and such). Building such as advanced habors could also modify naval range and the size of the army that you could dispatch from a given province. Further it wuld be easy to use a system like in EU3 and mark the mediterranean as shallow water and the atlantic as ocean, causing vast differences in naval range.

That being said, I'm not even sure that there was any direct naval invasions from Alexandria to Gibraltar. There was a reason that the first crusade went by way of Constantinople, that the Muslims invaded across the strait of Gibraltar and that Richard the First took Cypres as a staging base. So really no-one would ever sail directly from Norway to Alexandria or anything like that.

Alternatives exist.

Trouble is they all seem to be based on attrition, which is also easy for the AI to handle, and if they're based on distance they have to a) keep Eastern and Western Med powers from ever fighting, because it's a big Sea, or b) allow North Africans to invade Ireland.

I assume you mean hard for the AI to handle, and I agree, the AI doesn't deal well with attrition either. However mostly the idea is based around a simple hard range limits - if you embark from Gibraltar to say Tripoli at cost X, and no futher, if you embark from Venice you can get to any part of the Med etc. This should be relatively easy for the AI to understand, as it is simply part of route planning and path finding, a problem which has been solved efficiently for a long time.

And really east and west Med powers did not make direct ocean invasions. Armies were marched to the closest friendly port, and if that wasn't close enough they didn't fight. But if that seems too simplistic I've already pointed out how adding different tech to different provinces can help distinguish between different Med powers.

In CK1 every time anybody complained about the Sheik of Praha Paradox would claim Muslim incursions into Europe were necesary for game balance reasons, because the decision to invade Egypt should be risky for a player.

Do you really believe those guys are gonna write an AI that allows the player to declare war at no risk, because Muslims stay home?

Moreover since in Paradox games the only way to win most wars is take the enemy's provinces do you really think they're gonna write an AI that refuses to take your provinces?

Nick

Well, I agree with you that this is how it was in CK1. I guess my point was that I would rather see Paradox focus their efforts on these fundamental problems than on making a complicated naval system.

Risk could be added in plenty of ways. Ways that would refelct the period better. So lets say you are not going to loose you lands to muslim invaders - but you could see nobles conspiring against you at home, peasants rebelling etc. And if the ruler stays at home, but dispatches his nobles, they might reap the prestige and political power when they get home. And what can the muslims do? They can capture and ransom the leaders you send down their, making an already costly war even more expensive.

Besides it should really be possible for a crusading army to conquer provinces in the middle east anyway. It should be possible to liberate them, form the crusader states and so on of course, but those provinces should not become part of England or France or whoever did the liberation, because that is not what happened. So if the player does not have a hcnace of really gaining provinces, the is not big gameplay reason that he should be able to loose provinces.

As for winning wars, this could be based on something other than province control. Victorious battles. Capturing hostages. Casus bellis and claims.
 

vwclaymore

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As far as Muslims not being able to sail around Iberia and into northern Christendom, but should be able to because northern Christendom were sailing to the Holy Land argument, that is not really the issue. Christians going on crusade went across Europe and departed from Italy to go on Crusade or overland through Byzantium and Turkey to avoid sailing around Iberia. While they had ships that could navigate these waters, it was much safer to sail in the Med, so even Christians didn't do this if they could avoid it. The reason Christians from the North could attack the Holy Land is b/c they passed through other Christian realms, not b/c they sailed around. The Muslims equivilent would be Muslims deep in Persia going through other Muslim countries and then attacking Italy or Spain (not northern Europe).
 

King of Men

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So how're you gonna model that a Med power based in Alexandria can land in Gibralter, but a Med power based in the Balearics can't land in Brittany?

I haven't calculated the exact distances, but by eyeball they look comparable.

Calculate the sailing distance, not the as-the-crow-flies distance. There's already pathfinding code in there, just restrict it to sea provinces.

Why have a fleets in EU/Vicky then? Because they cover periods that are justifiably called the Age of Sail and the Age of Steam? Because they involve several ocean spanning empires? Because control of the sea was an actual military and political doctrine? Because these periods were characterised saw other ship related activities like exploration, ocean spanning trade, colonization, blockades and gunboat diplomacy?

While this is all true, I feel that the EU model where navies are, in effect, armies that move about on the sea does not really have the desired properties. Control of the sea lanes does not consist of plopping your 150-ship fleet down off the harbour that contains the other guy's 120-ship fleet, and then sending a few frigates to blockade the remaining thousands of mies of coastline in his empire. EU3 and Vicky could both be improved by removing the actual ship units, or at any rate their treatment like armies that move on water, and instead abstracting a "degree of control" over coastal waters, based on distance to the nearest naval base, strength of the fleet stationed there, and the aggressiveness of the admiral in charge.

As for the way air power works in HoI, don't get me started.
 

1alexey

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I
Why have a fleets in EU/Vicky then? Because they cover periods that are justifiably called the Age of Sail and the Age of Steam? Because they involve several ocean spanning empires? Because control of the sea was an actual military and political doctrine? Because these periods were characterised saw other ship related activities like exploration, ocean spanning trade, colonization, blockades and gunboat diplomacy? And even in these games, given this (IMO greater) importance of ships and shipping there are A) problems with the way the AI handles ship units and B) very important stuff like ship trade that is left out of the model.
Whell the Venice, Sicily(kungdom btw), Hansa, Rus, Busantium,Vikings and Arabs were building ships for gigle i guess :D And funny enough America was discovered during the dark age.

There are two similar facts for EU,Vic,CK. Navy was importaint,for trade and some times desisive for war. Secondly thay are hard for Ai to handle.
Bit CK is apearing to be a special case because we can not have one.
No medieval game can add acurate naval combat for one simple reason. We don't know how exactly they were fought. There were naval battles in that time, like the battle of Sluys between England and France in 1340, but all we got are some paintings and vague descriptions given by people who obviously never saw an actual naval battle. And this thing is important for the outcomes.
Sure, sir. There were at least 2 or three naval battles between the Rus and Bysantium,
a bunch of amfibiuos invasions, and we do not know how the heck do ships fight?
lol. Just lol.
By the way the Roman and even Greek battles can allso be seen as an example, because with no gun powder fights were same at it`s basics. And obvioustly we do not know about the ship design, Dark ages, wtf...
 

RedRooster81

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I figure land and sea raids could be simulated by events, and nasty provincial modifiers and monetary bonuses for victims and aggressors, respectively. We have the viking raid events from Tuore's The Dark Years mod and the Magna Mundi pirate series from the EU3 modding community, so I think it might work in CK2 as well. For those states that had dedicated galley fleets, it was a rather inexact enterprise; maybe you should get a monetary gain or loss once a year and some raid events on your coastal provinces.

Sea battles, well, that's a tough one. There are certain choke points that should have some kind of special naval defenses, like the Straits of Messina and the Golden Horn. Naval battles should be simulated somehow, even if we don't have little ships to move around the map, but they should be rather rare and maybe event-driven. I'm no expert, but there's my two cents.