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Gerulus Sum

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Please.

I beseech thee, oh great and powerful Wiz, to nerf that horrible pink blob back into the hell from whence it came. In particular, Lithuania needs to have its development slashed to ribbons. I have two reasons for this:

First of all, the power of the Poland-Lithuania Commonwealth in eu4 is completely ahistorical. Lithuania was able to conquer all of the land that it did due the power vacuum left by the retreating Golden Horde. After years of conquest and disease, the region which had once been the political and cultural center of Kievan Rus was a shadow of its former self. In fact, Muscovy and Novgorod emerged as the principal Russian states precisely because they had been spared the worst of the devestating Mongol invasion. Lithuania ruled over a sparsely populated land, and as such was always the junior power to the more densely populated and politically established Poland.

The game does not reflect this fact. In 1444, Lithuania has 354 development value. Poland starts with 183, and the total value of Poland, Mazovia, and the Tuetonic Order is 332, still less than Lithuania. The Ottomans start with 293, and even France has 341, still less than Lithuania. How does Lithuania, a country ruling over a region devestated by war, populated by people foreign in religion and culture to its ruling class, start the game with the most development out of all the countries in Europe?

The disproportionate power of the PLC has gameplay effects as well. As it is, Poland is the ally to have if you are playing as any country east of France, west of the Caucasus, and north of Sicily. Unless Poland loses its PU or manages to find itself in a war against all of Europe, the Commonwealth remains excessively powerful to the very end of the game, and even if those things happen Poland and Lithuania continue to control that entire region. Some might say that changing the game to fit historical details is railroading. Well as it is, Eastern Europe is railroaded. The PLC always expands. AI Russia never manages to grow eastward. Even the Ottomans cannot expand north of the Danube.

I'm sick of having two choices in Eastern European playthroughs: to either ally the PLC and easily paint the map for the duration of the game, or to spend every waking hour in mortal fear of that monstrosity. I'm sick of that part of the map looking exactly the same every playthrough. Even Ming and France are more likely to collapse than the Commonwealth.

So please, please do something about Poland-Lithuania in the upcoming patch, because that country remains one of the most ahistorical and stale aspects of Europa Universalis IV.
 
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Vistariel

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Well stated. Although I will say that without the PLC as it is, playing pretty much any game as a Christian in the Balkans (minus Hungary) will be practically untenable.
 
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Dziadekmietek

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Actually, after playing many full campaigns until 1821 in the latest patch I've noticed that Poland rarely blobs as they usually lose PU with Lithuania due to losing early wars => prestige drop. The future of Poland (and PLC later) depends on prestige an AI tends to have problems to keep it positive in this case. If Polish-Lithuanian PU fails those two countries are too weak to keep their territory and it creates space for Russia and Teutonic Order / Prussia to expand what happens pretty often.

Of course that doesn't matter if we're talking about playing as Poland. Any other country might be then considered OP as well. Allying Poland or any other nation (and supporting their conquest) might spoil the general picture too.

So IMO there's no need to nerf Lithuania nor Poland, especially as they have powerful neighbours (who also cease potential expansion) what IRL caused the final colapse of PLC.
 
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magnusvejby

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If it's ahistorical REMOVE it, but keep in mind Lithuania dose not have their full potential since alot of their provnices are orthodox, so they are not super strong!
 
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FleetingRain

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I can't believe I'm going to say this, but it would probably be better if Lithuania lost a lot of development but got Increased Coring Cost in their traditions, or as their first idea.

In fact, if the +15% Manpower tradition was changed for a 50% ICC and they got a cut of 33% in their development, the whole realm would still cost the same amount to core and they would still have positive heretic tolerance (so the argument that their lands are Orthodox is 100% null). If Commonwealth is formed by Poland, they wouldn't have the ICC but would be strong as hell anyway so that's okay. If Lithuania manages to form it instead... well, then it's a human player anyway.

Hell, they MUST lose that +15% Manpower tradition. They were an underpopulated realm, where the hell are they taking so many people from?
 
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Ethanol

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Poland is fine, it's Lithuania that is just over developed.

I've yet to see a game where lithuania gets beaten by muscovy, last game as GBR lithuania beat Muscovy and ottomans ! (and austria but they where allied to france so it helps).

2015-10-19_00001.jpg

Or else I would increase the development of muscovian provinces (not helping for historicity).
 

magnusvejby

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Poland is fine, it's Lithuania that is just over developed.

I've yet to see a game where lithuania gets beaten by muscovy, last game as GBR lithuania beat Muscovy and ottomans ! (and austria but they where allied to france so it helps).

View attachment 140603

Or else I would increase the development of muscovian provinces (not helping for historicity).

Holy **** if that ain't a multiplayer game, im 100% in for a nerf for lithuania, not for increasing Muscovy's development tho, they are still OP. :p

Edit: That Milan tho, they are goddamn big XD
 

Straigthtsilver

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The PLC as it stands is horrifically OP both in terms of Lithuania's starting development and Poland's absurdly strong NIs. As already mentioned, Lithuania has more development than the heartland of Western Europe and even gives Italy a good run for its money, despite historically being very underpopulated and still recovering from centuries of turmoil.

As for Poland, it's combination of incredibly strong military-focused NIs and its own choice of Idea groups means its unstoppable after roughly 1550-1600. Poland's huge bonuses to tolerance and its picking of Humanism means that it is almost impossible for any rebels to rise up, even when most of the PLC is occupied, blockaded, and its war exhaustion is at max.

As for the military NI bonuses, while they may not be equal to Sweden or Prussia, they nevertheless allow Poland to absolutely wipe the floor with Russia (who have criminally-underpowered NIs focused on the ahistorical perception of the 'Russian Steamroller').

If Poland can't be nerfed, then Paradox please at least give Russia a bonus to morale so it stands a fighting chance to not fragment and be gobbled up by hordes within a century. This would even be more historically accurate, considering a huge element of Russian military tactics in the period was aggressive bayonet assaults and esprit d'corp, rather than hordes of manpower which they didn't have until the 19th-20th centuries.
 
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efngn

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I can't believe I'm going to say this, but it would probably be better if Lithuania lost a lot of development but got Increased Coring Cost in their traditions, or as their first idea.

In fact, if the +15% Manpower tradition was changed for a 50% ICC and they got a cut of 33% in their development, the whole realm would still cost the same amount to core and they would still have positive heretic tolerance (so the argument that their lands are Orthodox is 100% null). If Commonwealth is formed by Poland, they wouldn't have the ICC but would be strong as hell anyway so that's okay. If Lithuania manages to form it instead... well, then it's a human player anyway.

Hell, they MUST lose that +15% Manpower tradition. They were an underpopulated realm, where the hell are they taking so many people from?

NO. IHCOU is one of the worst features in the game. It should be removed entirely. They just need a dev nerf.
 
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Ethanol

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On the other hand I noticed there was a significant buff (development and diplomatic) coming for denmark to avoid it being steamrolled by sweden in the first twenty years, scandinavia forming and then allying with lithuania is a big factor for the demise of muscovy in my games.

It doesn't change the fact that lithuanian development is OP but may balance the situation a bit. Also even though I agree Russian NI's are a little stereotypical on the cheap massed infantry side, they are not totally unfounded (for the cheap infantry part, not so the massed one) do make for a more particular gameplay and boost muscovy's chances of survival quite a lot. Manpower is crucial when you're surrounded by hordes.
 

efngn

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Yeah, and you're going to remove them without adding anything to replace it?

IHCCOU is supposed to represent some sort of nationalism or resistance to the new conquerors (at least per the Bohemian idea, Czech Nationalism).

IHCCOU should be replaced by either one or some combination of increased years of separatism or increased unrest from separatism.
 
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FleetingRain

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Of course, if the mechanic is changed to something else, then add that instead for Lithuania.


But, as of now, we have ICC. So, ICC it is for Lithuania. Not giving them that won't change that ICC exists. It's outside the scope of this thread.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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If it's ahistorical REMOVE it, but keep in mind Lithuania dose not have their full potential since alot of their provnices are orthodox, so they are not super strong!

Nonsense. They have some unrest from religious unity problems, but as they have +4 tolerance of heretics they have positive tolerance in those Orthodox provinces. If at 100 legitimacy they actually get 2 tolerance from them in and would have 75% unity with only Orthodox land. These provinces are full value then.

Yeah, and you're going to remove them without adding anything to replace it?

What needs to be "replaced" when one nation is an outlier wrt 1444 development? If you have an outlier, just remove the outlier.
 
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FleetingRain

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What needs to be "replaced" when one nation is an outlier wrt 1444 development? If you have an outlier, just remove the outlier.

This question is that, as far as I know, while Lithuania didn't have all that much development (or... people), they were a far stretch of land that didn't really get claimed or conquered by anyone else. So reducing their development to sane levels but giving them something to make them less attractive to other nations (all their lands being Orthodox means Muscovy would love to feast on them) would make the devs' proposed historical Lithuanian presence possible.

Then again, if it weren't the PU with Poland, would they even survive Muscovy and the horde in the real world? I don't know.
 

Ethanol

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What really worries me is that Lithuania doesn't need a PU/alliance with poland to survive, while muscovy absoultely needs to keep scandinavia/lithuania/poland/ottomans/hordes in check to survive.

I have the feeling that making the Poland-lithuania Alliance/PU a necessity for survival would better represent the historical balance of power in the region. Of course in the present state when the two do get into a PU nothing can stand in their way.
 
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