Please make vassal limit optional

[Myrten]

Personally I think vassal limit is a ridiculous idea that should be thrown out of a window altogether. I've stopped playing the game because of it and I guess there are many people who feel the same about it.

Since we are going to get this new custom game rules system - how about adding vassal limit to it?

 

[Simmy93]

An interesting option however its a tad dramatic to stop playing the game because of a logical restriction. There are crown laws and other options to raise your vassal limit; however an Irish Empire with 200 duke vassals is utterly ridiculous and in truth was one of the issues I had with the game originally. Limits create realmism, sorry to hear you stopped playing because of it, however its just another challenge you have to develop a strategy for, I doubt they'll add it as an option. It would be akin to turning off demense limit.

 

[StarSword]

How many people can a ruler really manage? That's what the vassal limit versus demesne limit represents: your ability to hold personal power versus your need to delegate it.

Just get legalism 4 and start creating viceroys. That way you can at least control who your king-level vassals are.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Personally I think vassal limit is a ridiculous idea that should be thrown out of a window altogether. I've stopped playing the game because of it and I guess there are many people who feel the same about it.

Since we are going to get this new custom game rules system - how about adding vassal limit to it?

What would it gain? All it would do would be mean that there was no incentive to ever have a strong vassal - indeed, aside from technology there'd be no point to ever appoint anything above a count. Even with tech taken into account, just appoint single-county dukes, and you can then have as many vassals as you want?

Now, whether the current vassal limit is too low - that's a different matter...

 

[Hector of Troy]

For me, the vassal limit is way too high. I want to see it reduced.

 

[Iron Chariots]

Also, make money optional. I think it's bullshit that mercenaries and other troops demand to be paid. I'm a king, they should all just have obey me and if I want to just get free troops, I should be able to.

 

[Soladept]

Read the latest Dev Diary


Making Vassal Limits a modular option can be a possibility under the new settings system

 

[Myrten]

An interesting option however its a tad dramatic to stop playing the game because of a logical restriction. There are crown laws and other options to raise your vassal limit; however an Irish Empire with 200 duke vassals is utterly ridiculous and in truth was one of the issues I had with the game originally. Limits create realmism, sorry to hear you stopped playing because of it, however its just another challenge you have to develop a strategy for, I doubt they'll add it as an option. It would be akin to turning off demense limit.

It can be worked with only up to a certain point, I've tried making Roman Empire with Greece and Italy as 'central' provinces with my demesne and duke vassals there and king-vassals everywhere else but I still hit the damn limit... This system simply doesn't scale well.

I wouldn't mind if there was a penalty to income from vassals further away from capital

How many people can a ruler really manage? That's what the vassal limit versus demesne limit represents: your ability to hold personal power versus your need to delegate it.

Just get legalism 4 and start creating viceroys. That way you can at least control who your king-level vassals are.

Demesne limit is about maximum number of people ruler can manage, and emperors used to have whole bunch of bureaucrats working for them. Viceroys are a broken mechanic for me because:

a) I have to reappoint manually them each time vassal dies which is micromanagement hell in large empire
b) Lower level titles are not transfered with the viceroyalty so even if I get dutchy\kingdom title back I don't get provinces assigned with it back.

What would it gain? All it would do would be mean that there was no incentive to ever have a strong vassal - indeed, aside from technology there'd be no point to ever appoint anything above a count. Even with tech taken into account, just appoint single-county dukes, and you can then have as many vassals as you want?

Now, whether the current vassal limit is too low - that's a different matter...

There were incentives before Charlemagne patch, having too many vassals is micromanagement problem, as well as one single vassal is better from military perspective - it allows to raise army in a single province in case of war with enemy. I've used to create king-vassals in border kingdoms of my empire.

As for limit being too low there is a scalability problem - if you make it too high you could turn it off as well for smaller countries, but if it's too low it's game breaking for large empires. There is no single value which could make sense for both France and Mongol Empire...

 

[Conan The Librarian]

You can just increase the values of the vassal limit in defines.lua

 

[Myrten]

You can just increase the values of the vassal limit in defines.lua

Yeah but isn't this new game rules mechanic about not having to mod such things?

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Demesne limit is about maximum number of people ruler can manage, and emperors used to have whole bunch of bureaucrats working for them. Viceroys are a broken mechanic for me because:

a) I have to reappoint manually them each time vassal dies which is micromanagement hell in large empire

Kind of the point of them unfortunately - you appoint new ones when the old ones die...

b) Lower level titles are not transfered with the viceroyalty so even if I get dutchy\kingdom title back I don't get provinces assigned with it back.

Yes, but you don't ever need to actually handle those titles. Once you've got the viceroyalty set up, you can just re-appoint from the existing vassals in the area, depending on who is most useful at the time.

There were incentives before Charlemagne patch, having too many vassals is micromanagement problem, as well as one single vassal is better from military perspective - it allows to raise army in a single province in case of war with enemy. I've used to create king-vassals in border kingdoms of my empire.

As for limit being too low there is a scalability problem - if you make it too high you could turn it off as well for smaller countries, but if it's too low it's game breaking for large empires. There is no single value which could make sense for both France and Mongol Empire...

One single vassal just plain doesn't work. They give out titles or lose them to succession/revolts. That, and if they *do* get upset with you (RNG decides you're now rivals for example), they can easily contest with you for the empire title, since they've got more troops than you do. Even if they don't revolt, they refuse to give you any reasonable amount of troops.

Well... If you consider that an Empire has perhaps 3-4 kingdoms in it (not counting dejure drift), and that in your main kingdom of the empire you can probably get away with double-dukes... 10 should easily cover one empire. 14 or so will let you get most of the next door empire as well, more so if you're willing to risk a double king vassal. That'll apply for almost any "civilised" empire. With a quick poke around of the laws, when I get two more votes passed, I'm hoping to have a desmesne of 10-14, and a vassal limit of about 35-40 (and I've not been intensively breeding for stats). Now admittedly that's full imperial law, but 35 vassals is 8-10 empires worth of vassals...

 

[StarSword]

Demesne limit is about maximum number of people ruler can manage, and emperors used to have whole bunch of bureaucrats working for them. Viceroys are a broken mechanic for me because:

a) I have to reappoint manually them each time vassal dies which is micromanagement hell in large empire
b) Lower level titles are not transfered with the viceroyalty so even if I get dutchy\kingdom title back I don't get provinces assigned with it back.

Sounds like a personal problem. Nobody forced you to conquer such an enormous territory that managing viceroys became onerous. And if you'll read the flavor text, the imperial bureaucracy is exactly what the viceroy system is meant to represent. By implementing it you have shifted from the feudal system to one where the top liege appoints provincial governors to administer territories, just like the Roman Empire.

 

[HandicapdHippo]

It can be worked with only up to a certain point, I've tried making Roman Empire with Greece and Italy as 'central' provinces with my demesne and duke vassals there and king-vassals everywhere else but I still hit the damn limit... This system simply doesn't scale well.

Its not working because you insisted on keeping every Duke in Italy and Greece directly under you for some reason when you could have had a much reduced number of King vassals, hell you don't even have to have vassal kings there if you don't want to hand out the kingdom titles, just have dukes with multiple duchies.

 

[Myrten]

Kind of the point of them unfortunately - you appoint new ones when the old ones die...

Yes, but you don't ever need to actually handle those titles. Once you've got the viceroyalty set up, you can just re-appoint from the existing vassals in the area, depending on who is most useful at the time.

So basically I pick which of the 3-4 counts get to rule the dutchy,... I don't see much point in this.

Well... If you consider that an Empire has perhaps 3-4 kingdoms in it (not counting dejure drift), and that in your main kingdom of the empire you can probably get away with double-dukes... 10 should easily cover one empire. 14 or so will let you get most of the next door empire as well, more so if you're willing to risk a double king vassal. That'll apply for almost any "civilised" empire. With a quick poke around of the laws, when I get two more votes passed, I'm hoping to have a desmesne of 10-14, and a vassal limit of about 35-40 (and I've not been intensively breeding for stats). Now admittedly that's full imperial law, but 35 vassals is 8-10 empires worth of vassals...

How am I supposed to do the SPQR achievement then? It's around 30 kingdoms and I can't delegate them all since I also must have my demesne... If I would want to appoint a single governor for each historical roman province I can't because I would hit this arbitrary limit.

Sounds like a personal problem. Nobody forced you to conquer such an enormous territory that managing viceroys became onerous. And if you'll read the flavor text, the imperial bureaucracy is exactly what the viceroy system is meant to represent. By implementing it you have shifted from the feudal system to one where the top liege appoints provincial governors to administer territories, just like the Roman Empire.

Maybe I just tried to get SPRQ achievement?

Its not working because you insisted on keeping every Duke in Italy and Greece directly under you for some reason when you could have had a much reduced number of King vassals, hell you don't even have to have vassal kings there if you don't want to hand out the kingdom titles, just have dukes with multiple duchies.

I can't create a kingdom-vassal if I have provinces in it, and I think it would make sense for Roman Emperor to have both Rome and Constantinople in demesne..

 

[Zsrai]

I can't create a kingdom-vassal if I have provinces in it, and I think it would make sense for Roman Emperor to have both Rome and Constantinople in demesne..

So grant multiple Duchy titles to one character? You could easily have a Super Duke in Northern Italy or over in Asia Minor (the coastal regions in K_Greece), for example. You can also transfer vassalage of multiple dukes to non-de jure Kings if you want. You actually have to manage the titles and vassal numbers once you get that big, that is kind of the point of the vassal limit.

 

[Sonmi]

I can't create a kingdom-vassal if I have provinces in it, and I think it would make sense for Roman Emperor to have both Rome and Constantinople in demesne..

You can keep your Italian provinces even if you give the Kingdom title to a vassal, you'll simply get an opinion penalty with him for holding it.

Also, mate, the Roman schism existed for a reason, the empire is way too big, you have to delegate to administer it properly.

How am I supposed to do the SPQR achievement then? It's around 30 kingdoms and I can't delegate them all since I also must have my demesne... If I would want to appoint a single governor for each historical roman province I can't because I would hit this arbitrary limit.

Give several kingdoms to the same vassal?

Lower your centralization to have more vassals? Empower the council to get an extra 12 vassals?

There's plenty of ways to go to boost your number of vassals, mate.

 

[ColZimin]

How am I supposed to do the SPQR achievement then? It's around 30 kingdoms and I can't delegate them all since I also must have my demesne... If I would want to appoint a single governor for each historical roman province I can't because I would hit this arbitrary limit.

You can give one person viceroyalty of multiple provinces! I've exploited this quite heavily playing for SPQR and for uniting India.

Say you have the territory for 15 kingdoms and a vassal limit of 10. Then grant up to 10 viceroyalties, and transfer the vassalage of remaining vassals to any of those viceroys. When the viceroys die, their main title reverts to you, as do all the vassals. (In addition, your 10 vassals will like you better for some time, which can be useful.)
You just have to be careful to split kingdoms/duchies that have not been created between different viceroys, so they don't create them and mess up your realm organization.

Spoiler: This has applications for non-Imperials too:

I'm using this in a tribal Kingdom of Svitjod game for three purposes:
A) managing my vassal number, since my limit is low
B) avoiding the creation of new kingdoms on succession
C) drifting all Baltic coast duchies into my Kingdom

In the image below, you can see how I've split all of Finland between maybe 5 Swedish/Norwegian jarldoms. I've made sure that none of these jarls control more than 50% of any Finnish duchy. Since all of Finland is controlled by non-Finnish rulers, the Kingdom of Finland can't form on succession, and with my Swedish King as the top liege, everything drifts into Sweden.

Sure, it's gamey, but it lets me play/create the realms I want. IMHO, it's not too much effort, and it actually makes me use some features I wouldn't otherwise, in order to manage subrealms and my vassals' opinion. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Bottom line, I hope CK2 finds its way back into your heart somehow!

 

[Myrten]

So grant multiple Duchy titles to one character? You could easily have a Super Duke in Northern Italy or over in Asia Minor (the coastal regions in K_Greece), for example. You can also transfer vassalage of multiple dukes to non-de jure Kings if you want. You actually have to manage the titles and vassal numbers once you get that big, that is kind of the point of the vassal limit.

Wouldn't I get a relations penalty for them desiring the king titles? Also what if I would want to add few kingdoms more to my empire - I would hit the limit again....

 

[Simmy93]

You can remove vassal limit from the game through mods, what you're describing is akin to removing demense limit or succession law restrictions. Its fine if you want to play like that, but the limit was added to the vanilla game for a reason, it was really needed. I've restored Rome several times and yes, you're over your limit sometimes but I'm also over my demense sometimes, you comprimise and hand out land carefully. Then you just get Imperial Admin (which BYZ starts with) and that's even more vassals, empower your council and that's more vassals.

 

[Myrten]

You can give one person viceroyalty of multiple provinces! I've exploited this quite heavily playing for SPQR and for uniting India.

Say you have the territory for 15 kingdoms and a vassal limit of 10. Then grant up to 10 viceroyalties, and transfer the vassalage of remaining vassals to any of those viceroys. When the viceroys die, their main title reverts to you, as do all the vassals. (In addition, your 10 vassals will like you better for some time, which can be useful.)
You just have to be careful to split kingdoms/duchies that have not been created between different viceroys, so they don't create them and mess up your realm organization.

Spoiler: This has applications for non-Imperials too:

I'm using this in a tribal Kingdom of Svitjod game for three purposes:
A) managing my vassal number, since my limit is low
B) avoiding the creation of new kingdoms on succession
C) drifting all Baltic coast duchies into my Kingdom

In the image below, you can see how I've split all of Finland between maybe 5 Swedish/Norwegian jarldoms. I've made sure that none of these jarls control more than 50% of any Finnish duchy. Since all of Finland is controlled by non-Finnish rulers, the Kingdom of Finland can't form on succession, and with my Swedish King as the top liege, everything drifts into Sweden.

View attachment 173849

Sure, it's gamey, but it lets me play/create the realms I want. IMHO, it's not too much effort, and it actually makes me use some features I wouldn't otherwise, in order to manage subrealms and my vassals' opinion. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Bottom line, I hope CK2 finds its way back into your heart somehow!

I think you nailed it

In order to work with this arbitrary mechanic we have to do gamey things and the larger the empire becomes the more micromanagement we got to do just to comply with this mechanic...

You can remove vassal limit from the game through mods, what you're describing is akin to removing demense limit or succession law restrictions. Its fine if you want to play like that, but the limit was added to the vanilla game for a reason, it was really needed. I've restored Rome several times and yes, you're over your limit sometimes but I'm also over my demense sometimes, you comprimise and hand out land carefully. Then you just get Imperial Admin (which BYZ starts with) and that's even more vassals, empower your council and that's more vassals.

Point of this new game rules is not having to use mods and since we already have much more unrealistic things, like no provincial rebellions or medieval gender equality I think turning off this ahistorical mechanic would make sense too.

As for limit itself I understand that having only count level vassals was a gamey thing to do and there was a need to do something with it, but this solution creates even a bigger problem which forces players into doing another gamey things in order to couple with it. Sure I can increase the limit with laws etc.. but number of vassals also increases as I expand...