Please make the game mechanics discoverable through the interface

[metatoaster]

you'll be happy to know this is literally the 4th line of the main hoi4 design document.

And I am indeed happy to hear that! Big, huge thumbs up to that.

@BlitzWarfare It's funny that you don't see where the missing info is. It's so much all over the place that I have a hard time giving single examples, but here are a few HoI3 examples just to humor you:
- When adding brigades to your divisions, you're presented with a grid of divisions with stats, but hovering over each brigade type doesn't present you with extra info about their in-game or historical role, you just have the raw stats. The grid is hard to read, too: instead of getting a tooltip when hovering over each stat or having a header that follows the line you're looking at, you have to visually trace up to the header to know which stat you're examining.
- In the research screen you see your skill level in various areas of research when clicking on an individual tech, but the reverse view, one that would list your skill levels and allow you to see corresponding techs, is missing. So you can't instantly tell in which areas research is easier for you.
- Terrain effects are only displayed in battle. If you're not swapping between political and terrain view all the time, you don't get the info of why your units are going at a given speed. Presumably regular infantry goes much slower in mountainous terrain, but good luck getting that info from the interface. You just get an abstract "movement cost" when looking at a territory in terrain mode.

Actually the above is a very important point. Grouping information by various "themes" is very necessary, and often only one grouping is available. For instance it's easy to see all units that operate under a specific HQ, but hard to see all units that are moving into a province (you basically have to select every unit around the province, and even that won't show you those who might be moving in from further away).

 

[xtfoster]

Design documents should NEVER be released to the public unless you are that RARE programming team that are actually able to get every "wish" included in that document into the game the way you initially envisioned it. Design documents are by definition a "living" document that changes as the progect progresses.

Or at least that is what I remember from my design classes from college.

EDIT: Oops. I meant to quote the post(s) that asked for the design document to be released to the public...

 

[safe-keeper]

I don't understand what you guys are talking about. Could you give us an example?

Are you serious? HOI3 had tooltips and whatnot, but is still one of the most "opaque" Paradox games I've played. The tooltips themselves often left me more confused than before I read them, given for example how they threw game terms around without bothering to explain them. Play HOI3, then EU3, and you'll understand what I mean. If you already have, then... you lost me, sorry.

 

[Secret Master]

Are you serious? HOI3 had tooltips and whatnot, but is still one of the most "opaque" Paradox games I've played.

You never played the original Vicky, did you?

The thing about HOI3 was that it had tons of tooltips and information right there in the interface.

The problem was that understanding it all was a bit difficult. However, I'll also say that actually reading the manual and strategy guide upon release actually made a huge difference in knowing what was going on. The catch was that if you didn't take the time to read both, the game itself didn't provide enough explanation of game mechanics to create anything close to complete understanding.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

You never played the original Vicky, did you?

Oh god. The original vicky... my reaction upon starting that game for the first time can be summed up entirely as "what the hell am I doing, why am I doing it, and where are all of these anarcho-liberals coming from?!"

Compared to that, my frustration with learning HoI3 was nothing.

 

[safe-keeper]

The thing about HOI3 was that it had tons of tooltips and information right there in the interface.

The problem was that understanding it all was a bit difficult.

That's pretty much exactly it. Why won't everyone accept non-aggression pacts? What is "peacetime manpower rotation"? What targets are planes going to hit if I research Naval Air Targetting?

And so on, and so forth .

 

[metatoaster]

However, I'll also say that actually reading the manual and strategy guide upon release actually made a huge difference in knowing what was going on. The catch was that if you didn't take the time to read both, the game itself didn't provide enough explanation of game mechanics to create anything close to complete understanding.

I agree that for a game of this scope, reading the manual can reasonably be a requirement. However, no manual is gonna give you live info on the effects of your actions, such as well-organized summary screens. Personally I can deal with high learning curves (even though it means I'm unlikely to try the game unless I'm in vacations, my brain is too fried from work otherwise) but it's what remains obscure even after learning the game that bothers me most.

 

[Pornek]

Yes please, I recently started to learn HoI 3 and holy s***. Without multiple LPs, the wiki and the manuals I would throw the game into the bin. Its still not clear to me how softness, hardattack and softattack interact, but whatever.
Please name the whole doctrines and what else sensible aswell. I dont understand why its called +5% unit corporation and not +5% reduced stacking penality...

 

[Jorlaan]

I remember when i first bought Civilization 2. I was about 12-13 years old and I had never played anything even remotely like it before, all I had played were Nintendo and Sega console games and a few real time strategy and shooters on PC.
I was so overwhelmed at first, but I kept the manual on hand and was awed by the Civlopedia, in my mind one of the best tools any game series has ever had to help people learn it. It made the learning curve so much easier, practically any question I had was answered with just a few clicks, and without having to close or minimize the program.
To this day not a play-through of any Civilization game happens for me without having to check that Civlopedia many, many times; even though I've played them all before many, many times.

Proper, clear and concise in game documentation is so absolutely needed that not having it makes a game of this scope a little ridiculous to learn.

When I first started learning HoI 3 I had a physical copy with a manual and all. The manual was informative but woefully inadequate, giving just the outlying info but no real substance.
For instance how much of each resource is needed to power 1 IC? It took me 2 years and finding it on the forum before I ever had an answer to this question. There are a LOT of people who never go to a game forum.

I have been playing HoI 3 for some 4 years now and I am still learning new things I feel I really should have known all along. If only it was written down somewhere for me to easily find, and not buried in some internet forum, in a post made by some guy who figured it out for himself because he also couldn't find any info; and not till 3 years AFTER the game came out.

 

[safe-keeper]

Even the Civ games can be really tough to understand sometimes, though. I remember scratching my head at what exactly "It's too crowded!" meant. What made the city too crowded? How could I remedy this? Then, after a long time: oooh, it just means the game generates one unhappiness for every population point. Could've just told me that.

 

[Secret Master]

When I first started learning HoI 3 I had a physical copy with a manual and all. The manual was informative but woefully inadequate, giving just the outlying info but no real substance.
For instance how much of each resource is needed to power 1 IC? It took me 2 years and finding it on the forum before I ever had an answer to this question. There are a LOT of people who never go to a game forum.

Hey, I'm always supportive of making manuals better, but this statement kind of bothers me a bit. Let's look at the original manual for HOI3 and see if it answers this specific question:



I mean, it's right there near the top of the first page on economics. It's not like this information is buried somewhere it can't be found.

 

[Jorlaan]

Ok so I missed one thing, forgive me please it was not a short manual. There are still a ton of things not explained ever.

 

[Concept2D]

There are a huge amount of improvements the HOI4 UI can and should make over HOI3. And I think they should have a high priority.

It's good to hear the 4th line of the design doc. One of those "should be obvious" principles but it's so easy to get distracted with your baby, and a baby can be hard to kill.

Users should not be expected to read the manual. We are probably 95%+ men after all .

I'm not sure what the best solution is, I don't remember civpedia been all that impressive, and I think encyclopedias could give an easy out for the UI designers (e.g. don't bother figuring out how to add that to the expensive tooltip, just add it to the quick and easy encyclopedia entry).

I hope paradox seeds a wiki so that there is a resource on day 1 of launch, or gives the wiki super contributors early access or similar.
Having said that I have no idea how familiar the average HOI player is with google, wikis etc.

 

[Mannstien]

Mueaah, I don't need to see everything there possible could be as tool tips or in the interface, can be lots of clutter, just the important things will get me going. For the rest a well written separate manual in electronic form with the search function will do fine. I like to read stuff in my down time and well written manuals about games I enjoy are welcome additions to the reading list.

 

[Poh]

generally the manual for paradox games are release a little before the games. I always read the whole manual to check out what new features are in the game and because its worthwhile with such complex games. Just because the different stuff is better explained and more visible i will still say its worthwhile checking out the manual and atleast read the parts thats new or which you might not be an "expert" in from the previous game.