Please make Navarra recreatable again

[yourworstnightm]

So change southern iberia, create the fictional claimable kingdoms of Andalusia, or something like that, it's already stupid that you have to controll almost all southern iberia to recreate the kingdom of Castille.

In my opinion either all iberian kingdoms (maybe not Galicia and Mallorca though) should be reclaimable, or none should be (since we don't know what would have happened if they had fallen to the moslems).

 

[Justinian_A]

I'm sorry, I don't believe a slight nod towards game balance should crush history or reality. I really don't understand why Navarre had to be removed, anyways. Is this some issue with people who play MP? Then let them change it for their MP games. I'd far rather see as much historical reality preserved as possible.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Considering mp is where most games end up eventually being geared toward for paradox....its also exploitable even in sp, but if its sp, you can mod it yourself, but then again, you can mod it so you start with 20/20/20/20/20/20 for your stats with a wife that's the same and mod it so you have claims everywhere.

 

[Third Angel]

No, most people, especially if your playing mp and aren't going after infidel right away Navarra then is an easy target.

Reading through this thread it doesn't seem that most people agree with the current setup. If this is only a MP issue then say it since this is your only sensible argument.

No its not. Numbers do matter in this game for provinces. I know its seems like a hard concept for you to grasp, but try, okay?

Now you are being agressive, and the fact is that 5 or 6 is the same thing, you will always need 4 provinces to recreate it (like Wales which never was a kingdom in the whole CK era)

Then look at southern iberia and how its screwed up as well...its hard to justify Navarra staying when southern iberia is screwed up like it is.

I don't see how screwing Navarra is going to improve the southern setup in any way.

 

[unmerged(31117)]

I don't actually know why it was removed, MrT said something about it bieng too big an exploit to be allowed despite the historical innacuracy of the whole thing. I cannot see the logic in this. If a two-province kingdom is too easy to claim, why not follow the same rules as apply to the other Spanish Kingdoms and expand Navarra's kingdom requirements to the maximum historical area, as Finnelach had suggested. I don't understand Paradox's apparant logic, but then there not called Paradox for nothing :rofl: :rofl:.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Considering it wasn't removed for several patches after it was brought up as a possibility, there was likely some testing done for stuff most of you wouldn't do.

Remember also all of this applies to the AI as well.

I don't see how screwing Navarra is going to improve the southern setup in any way.

Precidence. You (and others) are simply dogpiling this issue in hopes that the descion will be reversed. It might work, but it will add less to the setup and considering i haven't seen anyone here, except GoblinCookie, speak out about the other problem with Ibeira, it seems you guys are playing favorites (again i'm exempting GoblinCookie as he's also done so here and elsewhere).

 

[unmerged(31117)]

There's not actually much point in adding the kingdom of Granada in southern Spain until CK2 or some patch in the far distant future when Muslims are actually allowed to create and give titles. Then having extra kingdoms in Iberia would make sense so the Muslims can fight over them.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

Well still if England conquered southern Iberia, you'd bet they'd want to add that kingdom to their list as it was a recognized kingdom.

 

[Spruce]

In previous games I conquered - as a county - 2 Muslim provinces and I was all a sudden "king of Navarra" and then I had some dukes (Toulouse and Provence come into mind) vassalised.

Really a Kingship tier level in CK is something that places one above the dukes - the "king" of Navarra is nothing more then a puny duke - once recreated - we have to keep the discussion serious ... and put all things into perspective.

a 2 county kingdom vassalising a various set of dukes that are actually bigger then them is not serious,

it's a game - not a simulation - and it seems to me that a 2 county Navarra stands as a mouse against a "4-6" duchy like Toulouse and Provence,

 

[ZhugeKongming]

Oh brother.

Put me down as against Navarra being recreatable. I'll never understand the point of this crusade for historical accuracy.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

No, most people, especially if your playing mp and aren't going after infidel right away Navarra then is an easy target.

Where are those "most people". I've seen two-three people here adocating here...all others were against it. Yet it was changed....I will not comment why becuase it is transparent...

No its not. Numbers do matter in this game for provinces. I know its seems like a hard concept for you to grasp, but try, okay?

Numbers do not matter and never have in this game. If you play this game only to grab the first title yes then it matters however for normal players it does not matters at all. I've never played as Navarre nor I ever came into temptation to grab it, however removing it is something I will defiantely not support.

And yes it's really difficult for me to grasp it...you know I am stupid...only you are so smart no one else....we just can't grasp your vast genius....:rofl:

Yes Navarra is a historic kingdom, but, size and gamebalance are more important for this game.

How many times need I repeat - NO IT'S NOT.

:wacko: That's all you have to say? That's your defense? Come on! How many other kingdoms existed that aren't even represented as claimable kingdom titles?

Yes thats all I have to say. Unlike you I have real factual arguments, you don't. Please tell me what other kingdoms existed througout whole CK period and are not represented? Rubbish....

Then look at southern iberia and how its screwed up as well...its hard to justify Navarra staying when southern iberia is screwed up like it is.

Thats why I suggested the addition of Granada as claimable kingdom, yet you and your whole lobby discarded that and pressured des into not even considerating this.

 

[unmerged(31117)]

That was the point of expanding the requirements of the Navarra king title. So that we can have historical realism aswell as getting rid of the two-county kingdom thing. By Finnelach's suggestion's you'd need 4 counties to make yourself king of Navarra, this represents you needing to insulate your claim with a bit more land in that area- and apparantly this was the maximum territorial area the kingdom of Navarra managed to aquire in the CK era which is the criteria for all the other Iberian king title requirements, so it is in line with the others.

Actually I'd like to see a kingdom of Granada. I would also be delighted if the kingdoms of Toledo and Cordoba could be added also. Trouble is as I said earlier this would mean that Iberia has seven king titles.
Castille
Aragon
Leon
Portugal
Cordoba
Toledo
Granada

Expecially given Paradox's apparant intention to make it difficult to hold multiple king titles, 7 king titles are going to be very difficult to hold down. That's why they should introduce a fourth-tier "Emporer of Iberia" for someone who managed to conquer to whole of the Iberian peninsula and make themselves king of all the above titles.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

Cordoba and Toledo are titular titles not real kingdoms.

 

[unmerged(2456)]

How many times need I repeat - NO IT'S NOT.

That's my line. How many times need I repeat - YES IT IS!

Cordoba and Toledo are titular titles not real kingdoms.

Cordoba would actually be more on the lines of Emperor if you want to be technical as Caliphate of Cordoba outranked a Sultan.

 

[unmerged(31117)]

Alright, calm down. I was just suggesting the Cordoba and Toledo thing as filler titles to moderate the size of Castille's requirement area. They are a-historical Christian kingdoms, not historical ones.

Now everyone that doesn't agree state their objection to Navarra bieng recreatable, but expanded to the provinces suggested by Finnelach.

 

[unmerged(27913)]

That's my line. How many times need I repeat - YES IT IS!

No it's not.

Cordoba would actually be more on the lines of Emperor if you want to be technical as Caliphate of Cordoba outranked a Sultan.

Cordova woul actually be more on the lines of nothing. It was a titular kingdom title. How the muslims called themselves is totally unimportant.

 

[unmerged(31117)]

Aren't we going a bit off topic arguing about whether Cordoba should be a creatable king title?

 

[Third Angel]

Aren't we going a bit off topic arguing about whether Cordoba should be a creatable king title?

We certainly are especially if you look at that:

The default creatable kingdoms in the province.csv will not be changed. Adding new ones is not within the scope of the project

Now if I understand this statement correctly, this means that neither Finellach's proposition to increase the number of required provinces for Navarra, neither the creation Granada won't be added to any patch.
So sadly this would leave us with only an alternative between a two-provinces recreatable kingdom or a two-provinces non-recreatable kingdom...

 

[unmerged(21937)]

We discussed this through and through in Petition for New Kingdoms thread before it was implemented and this matter was considered throughly by beta team as well, so it's very unlikely to be made recreatable again for 1.05. It's an easy modification to do yourself too and since it's much more convenient for MP players to use official patch files than everyone do a modification, it's better to have official patch use the less exploity variant, no?

On another note, I'm really not that impressed by the rather inflammatory language used by certain users in this thread, so if you can't be more civil with your discussions, I'll just need to close this down.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Yes, let's not get too angry here, no need for this to be a flame thread. But I still want argue that the beta patches lack historical relevance when Navarra can't be recreated, Navarra was a far more stabil kingdom than Aragaon and Catile, that acctually had been created out of the crown of Navarra.