Please Make Deving Up MORE Expensive and Make Pillage Capital Weaker

[SonofWinter]

Let's make deving up 10 times more expensive and make Pillage Capital only take 10% of what it currently is and make it so that you can only pillage into provinces with lower development.

My reasons:
Every OPM should not be the size of Constantinople 100 years into the game. Magdebug today doesn't have 1,000,000 people that Constantinople did in the 1400. The rewards for successful Estate agendas should be meaningful, rather than something to be ignored. The rewards for mission tree achievements should also be significant. Getting +1 +1 +1 in Warsaw, shouldn't be something I can do for 60 mana points.

Next, the pillage capital is absurd. How does a 20 dev capital increase my 40 dev capital by any amount, did I pillage ignorance and illiteracy? In game by 1600 a 20 dev province is a backwater, how the heck is it generating growth in a 60 dev province?

The same goes for concentrate development. Sure, the development or pillage should go to one of my primary culture provinces, that are LESS developed but NOT my highly developed Capital.

Unless I'm pillaging or concentrating Constantinople, London, Paris or Wiena, most capitals' development should almost never grow from pillaging or concentrating development.

Also, an OPM shouldn't be able to go from one remote Ottoman province in the desert 1/1/1, that I ignore to a 15/15/15 province in 20 years or less. That's just absurd.

 

[JKiller96]

Populations come and go. Infrastructure is there for a lot longer.

Los Angeles could be depopulated by COVID today by 2030 it would be bigger than it is now because the infrastructure is there to hold that many people and all the conditions that make it a large city, remain.

The same conditions persist for Constantinople, it was always going to remain a trade hub, a crossroad for the East-West trade, depopulation wouldn't change that, the population would bounce back, in a flash. Stockholm was never going to be that because it is a city on the edge of a frozen tundra and importing food was not going to be supper reliable so its population was limited.

Warsaw and Berlin, needed a ton of investment, to make them large cities. Roads, canals, sewage disposal, administration, etc.

Again, your point is moot because we have examples that exist outside of your reasoning, such as Moscow. There is no argument here supporting a 10x increase in dev costs, especially with your only reasoning being that Constantinople was so developed and no city can surpass it; that's just not a connecting argument or a pleasant suggestion.

You're suggesting Constantinople should be high dev because, although it is empty, it could be refilled again. This is a huge assumption and actually, just a feeling by you. I am not taking modern times into account here because we are talking 1444. Theoretically, we can empty London and it would, in your words, "be bigger than it is now". I am sorry, but that is nonsense.

 

[SonofWinter]

Again, your point is moot because we have examples that exist outside of your reasoning, such as Moscow. There is no argument here supporting a 10x increase in dev costs, especially with your only reasoning being that Constantinople was so developed and no city can surpass it; that's just not a connecting argument or a pleasant suggestion.

You're suggesting Constantinople should be high dev because, although it is empty, it could be refilled again. This is a huge assumption and actually, just a feeling by you. I am not taking modern times into account here because we are talking 1444. Theoretically, we can empty London and it would, in your words, "be bigger than it is now". I am sorry, but that is nonsense.

I have no idea what a pleasant suggestion is.

I think development theft is unrealistic unless you are stealing up to a certain level. I think stealing development from a 10 dev province to grow your 200 dev capital is a shitty garbage exploit that needs to end NOW.

When you concentrat dev it is 1 point from each category and you get 2 points in return in a 2 2 2 province. I know this because I tested it.

That means you can capture a bunch of provinces dev them up to 2 2 2 at a dirt cheap price of 35 mana each and then concentrate dev to get 2 points into your capital where each dev click is 100+ mana.

That's a garbage mechanic. If I can develop 3 times for a 105 mana points total, in some trash province and then get 2 point back in my capital that would cost me 200 mana.

You keep defending this system and are shocked that others don't because...? Do you lack the imagination to exploit it this system or are you some cheese player who thinks this is how reality works?

 

[JKiller96]

I have no idea what a pleasant suggestion is.

I think development theft is unrealistic unless you are stealing up to a certain level. I think stealing development from a 10 dev province to grow your 200 dev capital is a shitty garbage exploit that needs to end NOW.

When you concentrat dev it is 1 point from each category and you get 2 points in return in a 2 2 2 province. I know this because I tested it.

That means you can capture a bunch of provinces dev them up to 2 2 2 at a dirt cheap price of 35 mana each and then concentrate dev to get 2 points into your capital where each dev click is 100+ mana.

That's a garbage mechanic. If I can develop 3 times for a 105 mana points total, in some trash province and then get 2 point back in my capital that would cost me 200 mana.

You keep defending this system and are shocked that others don't because...? Do you lack the imagination to exploit it this system or are you some cheese player who thinks this is how reality works?

You don't have to get really defensive. Im not supportive of having 200 dev provinces through trickery. There are just other solutions than just raising the cost across the board, like putting a lock on the dev of a province based on various factors such as terrain.

I'm just saying that you need to think of a viable change as well as not using Constantinople as your baseline for an abstract number.

 

[SonofWinter]

You don't have to get really defensive. Im not supportive of having 200 dev provinces through trickery. There are just other solutions than just raising the cost across the board, like putting a lock on the dev of a province based on various factors such as terrain.

I'm just saying that you need to think of a viable change as well as not using Constantinople as your baseline for an abstract number.

Madrid, Lisbon, Paris, London. I can have the same dev as any of those cities in the first 20 years in the heart of Africa.

The system is broken.

Use any of those cities as a baseline and you'll find that you can have a city with the same dev, anywhere on the planet and that points to a busted mechanic.

 

[JKiller96]

Madrid, Lisbon, Paris, London. I can have the same dev as any of those cities in the first 20 years in the heart of Africa.

The system is broken.

Use any of those cities as a baseline and you'll find that you can have a city with the same dev, anywhere on the planet and that points to a busted mechanic.

Again, development is abstract and only has gameplay value, no historical or demographical value. Attempting to apply one to it just doesn't work. Just rename development "area points" or something if that makes you feel better. What you're advocating is certain regions should always be better than others; you're offering no real solution as to how to apply this in a way that is substantial to your point.

 

[SonofWinter]

Again, development is abstract and only has gameplay value, no historical or demographical value. Attempting to apply one to it just doesn't work. Just rename development "area points" or something if that makes you feel better. What you're advocating is certain regions should always be better than others; you're offering no real solution as to how to apply this in a way that is substantial to your point.

I suggested that the following suggestions:

Development should be 10 times more expensive (in mana cost.)
Concentrate Development and Pillage should only benefit smaller capitals. (So if your capital is bigger than the target area, then it wouldn't be an option.)

So no, I've offered TWO suggestions and you've ignored them. Stop telling me that I've offered 'no real solution.'

 

[MatthewP]

I suggested that the following suggestions:

Development should be 10 times more expensive (in mana cost.)
Concentrate Development and Pillage should only benefit smaller capitals. (So if your capital is bigger than the target area, then it wouldn't be an option.)

So no, I've offered TWO suggestions and you've ignored them. Stop telling me that I've offered 'no real solution.'

Development being 10x as expensive is equivalent to turning off development as a game mechanic. Technically it is a solution youve proposed. I think when people say you haven’t offered a “real” solution, they mean that they think this is an unacceptable solution much worse than the problem.

 

[SonofWinter]

Development being 10x as expensive is equivalent to turning off development as a game mechanic. Technically it is a solution youve proposed. I think when people say you haven’t offered a “real” solution, they mean that they think this is an unacceptable solution much worse than the problem.

I'm willing to negotiate to 5 times the current cost. But not what it is right now. 6,000 dev clicks per game, is absurd.

 

[moscal]

Better should be cooldown in developing and other magical mechanisms...

And please - you should be more calm

I'm willing to negotiate to 5 times the current cost

You arent Eu4-developer or negotiator of Pdx to "negotiate". Lol...

But not what it is right now. 6,000 dev clicks per game, is absurd.

Player will be click in technology, ideas, coring conquest lands etc. Upgrade power of nation by pure "developing" isnt effective...

 

[JKiller96]

I'm willing to negotiate to 5 times the current cost. But not what it is right now. 6,000 dev clicks per game, is absurd.

What your examples are are solo examples, "Every northern European province should be less development than Constantinople"; your solution is "EVERY province should be 10x or 5x the development cost". This isn't a real solution to the imaginary problem you have created (the imaginary problem is that every province should have less development than Constantinople". By changing the dev cost a flat 10x or 5x, you aren't solving what you are proposing, instead you are making the rest of the world (outside of northern Europe) unplayable. If this solution was applied, countries such as Khmer would be unplayable as they are in disaster until they dev up X times.

This "solution" just causes more problems just to make your "feeling" that everything should be less dev than Constantinople better.

 

[SonofWinter]

What your examples are are solo examples, "Every northern European province should be less development than Constantinople"; your solution is "EVERY province should be 10x or 5x the development cost". This isn't a real solution to the imaginary problem you have created (the imaginary problem is that every province should have less development than Constantinople". By changing the dev cost a flat 10x or 5x, you aren't solving what you are proposing, instead you are making the rest of the world (outside of northern Europe) unplayable. If this solution was applied, countries such as Khmer would be unplayable as they are in disaster until they dev up X times.

This "solution" just causes more problems just to make your "feeling" that everything should be less dev than Constantinople better.

I never said every Northern European province, I said every province should take a long time and a lot of effort to rival Constantinople and not just 20 years worth of dev clicks.

Clearly you intend to lie because your argument lacks substance and I am clearly bored with the lies.

Welcome to the ignore list.

 

[Nominus]

I agree that it ruins immersion to have random 200 dev provinces that rival the huge metropolei of the time after about 20 years in.
On the other hand it is a nice way to show urbanization was happening, though we are way to extreme here in my opinion right now. It's that the actual urbanization events are irrelevant comapred to a single pillage.

So I agree: Pillaging was probably a mistake and needs to be nerfed, but dev costs can stay the same imho, especially since it is an essential mechanic for spawning institutions outside of Europe. Also playing tall should stay a viable strategy.

 

[SonofWinter]

I agree that it ruins immersion to have random 200 dev provinces that rival the huge metropolei of the time after about 20 years in.
On the other hand it is a nice way to show urbanization was happening, though we are way to extreme here in my opinion right now. It's that the actual urbanization events are irrelevant comapred to a single pillage.

So I agree: Pillaging was probably a mistake and needs to be nerfed, but dev costs can stay the same imho, especially since it is an essential mechanic for spawning institutions outside of Europe. Also playing tall should stay a viable strategy.

I like the urbanization efforts, too. I like the events that reward you for milestones. But when getting +1/+1/+1 as a reward for establishing you Capital in a new region is cheap, then it cheapens the experience, the accomplishment and the achievement.

Annexing Mazovia as Poland, I can move my capital from Krakow to Warszawa. I can do 3 dev clicks for the +1/+1/+1 reward and it feels like a garbage reward because I can do 3 dev clicks for a cost of 100 mana, total. Heck, I'd rather just get +2 stab, it would be worth more than the +3 dev.

As for spawning institutions, I've already covered this topic but I'll repeat myself. Spawning innovations should require fewer dev clicks and it should be scaled to dev costs. I think that getting a province to 10/10/10 in Sub-Saharan Africa should be a MONUMENTAL task of Herculean proportions. Not a cheap experience that any newb with 0 experience can accomplish in his first play through.

If you can literally turn the jungles/savannahs of Africa into the new Urban centers of the world that rival established metropoli like Paris/London/Constantinople then it should take a lot of doing, it shouldn't be achievable as a 20 year side job. Spawning institutions shouldn't be just the flip of a switch.

There's a reason why those places were not major urban centers, until the last 20 years.

 

[gigau]

As a reminder, please respect your fellow forum users, even when you disagree.