Please help with my second game

[Stormbringer]

So I played a game as Duke of Munster (three separate tries actually) until I formed the Kingdom of Ireland and Wales, and then I decided I wanted something a little more interesting. So for my second game I chose Duke of Apulia.

I survived the initial invasion by the Muslims from Tunis and Tripolitania. Slowly expanded, gobbled up Naples, etc. until I hold everything but Sorento in southern Italy (and that annoying city that is vassal to the Pope, any way to get rid of it?). Went on a successful crusade for Jerusalem (HRE got the Kingdom), and then finally fought another war against the Muslims in Sicily. Got Palermo and another county, and finally formed the Kingdom of Sicily.

And this is when the Fatimids declared war on me, wanting to take the newly formed Kingdom and everything in it. I have ~2.5k men, so I fight off the first couple of landing of ~1k men. And then an 8k stack lands in Naples. So I saved and decided to come here for advise. What exactly do I do about it? Thanks.!

 

[JonStryker]

Either fight them off using levies + mercenaries + holy orders or swear fealty to the ERE.

 

[Bob_the_Insane]

Have the Holy order's been formed yet? I imagine 7k Templars would be a welcome sight right about now...

However if the Fatimids are their normal size then an 8k stack will only the the start...

 

[Stormbringer]

No Holy Orders yet. I have about 500 gold, so I could potentially hire 3-4k mercenaries, but I will only be able to keep them around for a few months. Not clear what will happen afterwards...

 

[Bob_the_Insane]

Is it the Kingdom of Sicily they are fighting for or just Sicily itself? if just Sicily you will only lose the island and will have a 10 year truce to try get some allies together before kicking off a Holy War for Sicily...

 

[Stormbringer]

That is unfortunately the problem - its a Holy War for the Kingdom of Sicily. Which, as far as I understood, means that if I lose I am basically done.

EDIT: Also, if this is game-over then its ok, but I would appreciate some tips on what to do differently next time.

 

[Ahaz Flagg]

Did you gain mulsim land via Holy wars? Just a note if so, it looks kewl grabbing a lot of land in one grab, but the muslims will always come back and try to take it. A far more peaceful way for you would be to grab land via claims, that way you will not have to face whatever muslim sect you took the land from. Try growing slower, it is not a race. Use holy wars as little as possible, unless you are able to sustain a very long war.

I would try to get one of the 2200 merc bands, add them to your leveis, and make sure you place generals. Generals make all the differanc in your battles, do not ignore training or raiding for them. My goal is to have 6 good generals to use as much as possible.

 

[Ithvan]

If you have any spare children to wed off to powerful nations, this might be the time.

 

[unmerged(26764)]

When I play in Sicily, I always eventually swear to either the HRE or ERE (depending on my goals). Either will stop the Muslims from coming for you, and if they do they can't do much harm. Then I expand inside my host until I either take it over or declare independence when I'm big enough to take on the Muslims on my own.

For a normal Italy game, the HRE is the better option. As long as crown authority is low enough, you can keep taking HRE land up central and northern Italy. And you can pick off any Muslim rebellions in North Africa. If you plan to go independent eventually, the hardest part is often stopping the Germans from electing you Kaiser.

A more interesting game is to become Orthodox, swear to the ERE, and become an Italian Orthodox Roman Emperor. Form Rome with your base in Italy and restore the Roman Empire as it should be done -- from Italy with Italians.

 

[Stormbringer]

I am not sure I understand why Holy Wars are bad? I used it to grab only 2 counties in Sicily - but does this mean that all the Muslims will come after me now? Earlier it was only the ones in Tunis and Tripolitania (I could handle), but now its also the Fatimids.

 

[Garriath]

I've been in a very similar position to yours (though I was fending off the Byzantines.) I was able to win a white peace by taking advantage of the fact that all my provinces were coastal. I'd build up a big stack, and annihilate any enemy smaller stacks, then land in newly-conquered provinces and liberate them.

If you're able to drag the war out long enough, the enemy will eventually get tired and offer peace, especially if a crusade's called or he gets embroiled in big wars at home. So play a guerrilla warfare game, and you should survive.

 

[unmerged(462833)]

I suspect You are a target of their invasion - claim CB for de jure Kingdom. It doesn't important how You get lands - Fatimids tend to use invasion on Sicily often as it isn't superb strong realm. If You haven't got strong allies (like HRE or ERE) it will be hard, but still doable. As someone wrote it is good to use ships, land fast, recapture and leave territory. Also use mercenaries (but not too much so You will have gold for it) as they are really goot at the beginning (especially in assaulting ). You must be prepared for a long war and running from place to place...
About swearing fealty, as far as I remember You can't do that to HRE cause it isn't Your de jure.

 

[doubleskulls]

I am not sure I understand why Holy Wars are bad? I used it to grab only 2 counties in Sicily - but does this mean that all the Muslims will come after me now? Earlier it was only the ones in Tunis and Tripolitania (I could handle), but now its also the Fatimids.

I think that's a bit of red herring. It sounds like you are either being subject to a Jihad or just an Invasion of Sicily. If its a Jihad you may get lucky and the HRE, France etc may pile in on your side to stop the Fatimids winning. If its an invasion they won't. If it is an invasion I'm not sure what happens if you lose, but it I think you'll keep some holdings and not be eliminated. If its a Jihad you'll lose everything.

Unless something has changed I don't think you can become a vassal whilst at war. That I think severely limits your options in terms of winning the war. If you have any children of marriageable age then you should marry them to get alliances ASAP. That really means the HRE or ERE since no one else has the strength to fight off the Fatimids.

Otherwise I'd try some hit and run tactics to try and drag the war out as long as possible. Use your ships extensively to try and keep as much of your army at sea at any one time as possible. Then bait Fatimid stacks you can beat into either attacking smaller armies of yours in hills/mountains - then pounce with your ship based main army to win the battle. However I think this won't work well enough because you will soon find all the Fatimid stacks are bigger than your army, and you won't be able to get many reinforcements. Keep trying for white peace whenever you win battles etc. You may get lucky and get a Fatimid revolt or Sejulk invasion of the Fatimids and they'll accept a white peace.

 

[CurtisManning]

You should try to send a stack of mercs directly in Egypt to try and conquer some of their own lands, especially if it's early game, some of the lands won't be very well garrisoned, and your mercs could blitzkrieg it with assault (1500 mercs vs 200 defenders is a neat victory). If you're lucky and can rush some sieges before they do the same in your dear Sicily, you might attain 30% or so and get a White Peace. It's very unlikely though, because the Fatimids AI love the assault button.

I was in your exact situation, as desperate as you are, maybe in a worse situation. I couldn't win but I was lucky I got a claim on Urbino who was indepedent and I conquered the county before losing Sicily so I wouldn't have game over. Then I married to the descendant of Matilda of Tuscany (I still don't know why she accepted a regular marriage with a single county-owner) and was able to get back on my feet. It was very intense because it was in a multiplayer game, so everyone was looking at Italy wondering if I was gonna die.

I suggest you do the same, fabricate an emergency claim on a independent county, take it to survive.

 

[Stormbringer]

Thanks guys. Just some clarifications now.

First, is there any reason to fabricate a claim and fight a regular war over it with a Muslim ruler? Someone seemed to suggest yes, while someone else said no. Should I just use the Holy War CB to take half of Sicily or expand 1 county by 1 county slowly through claims?

Second, if I use Holy War I get all the holdings in the conquered areas, but it takes a decade or more for them to become useful due to "wrong everything" modifiers. Give these to vassals and then re-take from the vassals later? Sicily is a lot richer and more advanced than southern Italy, so I would like it for myself, but if I keep it I will be poor and defenseless for at least a decade.

Thanks

 

[yezhanquan]

The problem with Holy Wars is that defending rulers can call their religious brethen in to help with the defence. You do want to take note of that.

Also, I don't see anything wrong with having strong vassals, as long as you maintain high opinion. CK2 is largely about opinion, and throughout the game, you will be relying on vassals for gold and levies. Help them to help you.

 

[CurtisManning]

Let me put it like this about holy wars :

If you're a huge powerful king/emperor(even independent duke with a big army can fit), you can abuse them. You will gain lands quickly, reducing the differents cultural and religious maluses as one. But you have to know that you can win.

If you're a small, early game duchy or county, you don't wanna mess with them Muslims. Even if you think you won, they will come back. Sicily is also like the hardest place to defend against holy wars in the whole world.

Anyway, keep in mind that Sunni and Shia muslims can't help each other in holy wars. So the Fatimids didn't attack you because you used holy wars. They attacked you because they wanted to, and they knew they were better than you. Watch out with holy wars. It can be awesome when muslims rulers at are each other's throats, but it can be really dangerous if they all come at you. Use them carefully and accordingly to the situation. And don't holy war Palermo or do it really fast. He's a Shia in 1066, if the Fatimids join his war, you're doomed. Again.

 

[yezhanquan]

To clarify, "religious brethen" are rulers with exactly the same religion. As CM mentioned, Shia and Sunni rulers cannot help each other except through marriage alliances.

 

[Enravota]

I am not sure I understand why Holy Wars are bad? I used it to grab only 2 counties in Sicily - but does this mean that all the Muslims will come after me now? Earlier it was only the ones in Tunis and Tripolitania (I could handle), but now its also the Fatimids.

The bad side of the holy war is random any person of both religions can join in, so sometimes it is better to use regular claim wars. The real problem is that the new land will have no levy (recently conquered, different religion, and usually different culture as well) for some time, while your home levies need to recover to full strength, so it is the perfect occasion for someone to try to steal your prize. You shouldn't be overly adventurous before the holy orders appear and try to keep some land in Africa as a buffer (I noticed Muslim HW would go after African duchies before trying to take Italy).

 

[Stormbringer]

Great, thank you guys. I may try my next game as a Duke somewhere in Northern Italy, so that I am within the HRE and can build up in relative safety before taking on the Muslims in North Africa. I tried to salvage my game twice, but both times ran out of money for mercenaries.