Please give us the option to STAND OUR GROUND in early border disputes

[Cyridius]

After two and a half hours of speed up gameplay by wiz and he has 1 colony and a captured planet of a lower civ. That doesnt seems too fast at all.
Not everyone wants games to last hundreds of hours.
It seems a nice progression if the first x takes 3 to 6 hours of gameplay.

Not really what I meant by "too much too fast", more that colonisation had a huge effect immediately without any actual warning i.e. borders expanded and they got booted out of the system. I'm sure had Wiz really wanted to the expansion phase would've gone a lot better for the Blorg but that just reverses the problem(You screwing over the A.I.)

 

[Denkt]

Under what possible circumstances would you *not* stand your ground? You are effectively asking for the removal of border blocking abd tge myriad exploits this would create.

It don't have to be binary, like my suggestion here which are inspired by systems of other paradox games. Im sure you can make a better system then the one you currently use But please don't try to defend a poor system with that other systems would lead to exploits then the current system is extremely exploitable

In the last ET we saw that a newly colonized planet had a huge influnce of the borders and stopped the construction of a space station in another system like if that new colony could be considered a core. I think that is a bit ridiculous that space lightyears away from a newly founded colony could be considered core territory, paradox you do have the solution why did you not use it for Stellaris but here we go, core and claim.

The space near a space station and a planet would be considered to be claimed by the owner of the station/planet. A claim allow you to build mining and research stations but do not stop others from building their own stations and colonies and space ships of any empire can move freely in claimed territory. Empires that have claims in the same area can go to war about the claimed area, this would only allow combat to take place in claimed space, while core space would be off limit. Basically claimed space is like the wild west.

A core is much much more serious then a claim. Only planets can be cores because a space station is to little to ever be considered a core to an empire. At the start only the home planet is a core, space around a core is considered core space and only the owner have the right to have fleets in core space. A planet can become a core if it is located in an uncontested system (a system nobody else have a claim in) for 25 years or so. Taking a core planet is a very grave offence, that can hurt your relation with not only the owner but every empire in the known space.

 

[Eggbert]

One of my main issues with the suggested solution of "just declare war" is that in the early game that might not actually resolve the situation for a player in a position like the Blorg. Unless you have the technology to build assault troops, you cannot occupy that colony. I have yet to see an example of how to completely remove a planet's occupants from orbit and whether or not doing so would have consequences for Blorg who also want to settle there. Perhaps it should be (or is?) easier for ships to destroy a colony that has not reached full development without resorting to glassing the whole planet? Or ships blockading a planet with a developing colony on it could cause the colony's development to start to decay and if the blockade isn't broken quickly enough the colony dies off.

In general, I dislike when colony ships/settlers in games go from completely defenseless to requiring a coordinated military effort to remove with the click of a button.

Edit: Also regarding concerns about weird bubbles of space, I actually think that could create interesting gameplay for wormhole factions. There might be a lot of strategic reasons they'd want small spheres of influence in various places to expand their fleets effective range. That will have to be balanced against having border friction malus with an increased number of empires.

 

[Taylor]

tbh for now I think the easiest thing to do is just reduce the initial influence size of a colony. Fundamentally, it would still be a bit of a strange mechanic, but at least its impact would be reduced.

 

[Denkt]

tbh for now I think the easiest thing to do is just reduce the initial influence size of a colony. Fundamentally, it would still be a bit of a strange mechanic, but at least its impact would be reduced.

Right now may but I would wan't my suggestion to be implemented, it will put so much life into the game which other games lacks.

 

[moglus]

One of my main issues with the suggested solution of "just declare war" is that in the early game that might not actually resolve the situation for a player in a position like the Blorg. Unless you have the technology to build assault troops, you cannot occupy that colony. I have yet to see an example of how to completely remove a planet's occupants from orbit and whether or not doing so would have consequences for Blorg who also want to settle there.

The AI he conquered was already willing to surrender their planet before the ground invasion even left the Blorg system. He just kept auto-declining it because he wanted to show off ground combat.

Again for emphasis:

I think you guys are drawing way too many conclusions from *one* game intentionally played suboptimally.

Also i'm pretty sure the borders extent to nearby systems so that you have a bufferzone between you and your neighbors, i mean good luck sending reinforcements when your system comes under attack if the enemy is literally jumping from the next system over.

Now there is a point to be made about the borders of a colony that was just set up could be smaller, since we know that both amount of colonies, pop on the colonies and tech play a role in how large your borders extent from the colonies.
But it's gotta be said, we are 6 weeks away from launch... it is EXACTLY things like this that are being balanced and fiddled around with at this point in development.
So can we like... collectively calm our tits a little bit?

 

[Eggbert]

The AI he conquered was already willing to surrender their planet before the ground invasion even left the Blorg system. He just kept auto-declining it because he wanted to show off ground combat.

Again for emphasis:


Also i'm pretty sure the borders extent to nearby systems so that you have a bufferzone between you and your neighbors, i mean good luck sending reinforcements when your system comes under attack if the enemy is literally jumping from the next system over.

Now there is a point to be made about the borders of a colony that was just set up could be smaller, since we know that both amount of colonies, pop on the colonies and tech play a role in how large your borders extent from the colonies.
But it's gotta be said, we are 6 weeks away from launch... it is EXACTLY things like this that are being balanced and fiddled around with at this point in development.
So can we like... collectively calm our tits a little bit?

Yes the AI that had only recently reached FTL and had no fleet was willing to surrender before Wiz had the assault troops present. I'm not arguing that that wouldn't happen in the case of the Lizard faction. I'm just pointing out that a brand new colony can present a larger obstacle to remove than people seem to be implying without knowing exactly how the various orbital bombardment options work, and any lingering effects they might have. Especially compared to the defenseless colony ship it was only moments before, and presumably compared to the outpost that the Blorg were building.

As to the idea of borders being a buffer, I can see the argument others have been making that the immediate eviction is too strong. Suppose I send my fleet and colony ship to planet X, and 10 seconds before my colony ship would touch down, an alien faction lands their own colony ship on planet X. I can see the argument behind being able to declare war immediately to attack the new colony and make room for myself. Why should my fleet lose any war initiative by having to jump back to my space and then return again if I opt to go to war over the planet. Yes there should be a cost to being slower than someone else but there should also be a risk to sending out unprotected colony ships.

 

[Ex Mudder]

tbh for now I think the easiest thing to do is just reduce the initial influence size of a colony. Fundamentally, it would still be a bit of a strange mechanic, but at least its impact would be reduced.

1) Allow colony ships in route to establish a colony even if the destination system flipped hostile, but with a pop up bad relations warning, but block if there is another colony / outpost being built in system.

2) Allow constructor ships to finish their influence starbases, but not start new ones, if they are are flipped hostile space. I'd suggest that starting construction claims the system, so the other players / AIs can see it in time to do something about it and other constructors / colony ships can be blocked from building.

3) Limit colonial influence to the system while being built, then half (2/3?) the range of a home world after the year is up. Full influence should not be obtained until the central colony administration is built at Pop 5. Full influence also means minors hitting FTL.

4) I worry that one colony can claim so much space without a warning - I find such surprises very unpleasant. I dislike mechanics where Leap Frogging is superior to expansion from the center, and when is is easy to block (and be blocked by) other players and AIs.

5) I'm concerned that it seems better to not research alien contact at all so you can keep exploring / constructing / colonizing. Is there a benefit to spending society points like that, instead of rushing new worlds protocol and grabbing as many same class as homeworld planets as possible?

6) Bubbles mean nothing to a warp gate culture. They can also be gotten around by tweaking the border mechanics, such as by the establishment of transit corridors (think East Prussia) for warp and hyperlane.

Now I have no idea how much of this was WAD. Martin's twitter indicates that the cock blocking thing is new, to him at least. And that there was a recent bug with resource trades. Also, he is AI assistant not project lead, so unless you have a problem with the AI in the stream, don't blame him.

 

[Kalnaar5]

I agree we should reserve final judgement on stuff like this until after we've had access to the game or a better gameplay example.

Imo, this unkown civ mechanic is something of a departure from the norm of 4x games and we still dont understand it fully.
Isnt to hard to imagine that this first contact/research is a fully elaborate diplomatic event, where we share our mutual identity, presence and claims. And this is sufficient to explain the bubble effect
(I.e. how would we know their sphere of influence if they dont share it?).

 

[Kalnaar5]

1)
5) I'm concerned that it seems better to not research alien contact at all so you can keep exploring / constructing / colonizing. Is there a benefit to spending society points like that, instead of rushing new worlds protocol and grabbing as many same class as homeworld planets as possible.

For colonization purposes it would seem the better ideia, but dont forget that any hostile interaction in that phase will be a hit to the relationship with that civ for ever. If you intend to make any friends at all it's important to communicate with them early on.

 

[KingHoot]

In the possibility that claim dispute over sectors of space, there would be many possibilities. But only if its not an automatic insta-metaphysical borders.

For example, they might request that you withdraw your own claims/outpost. Agreeing to these request might be done in exchange of a positive influence boost with the other empire. After all, you just did them a favor.

Alternatively, you could trade your acceptance of their claim in echange of a bribe.. Or perhaps their recognizing some of your own claim in an alternative disputed sector? Or perhaps they will sign a non-aggression treaty with you?

There are many reasons why i would accept to yield a sector to another empire. But this only happens if you get back to the core diplomatic aspect of this game.

Do what other space strategy game never dared to do. Make territory more than "i have population that for some reason gives me a 5-lightyear territorial radius and will stop rival ships"

A border is only as effective as its enforced. Giving it some nebulous intrinsic value deprives Stellaris from a degree of depth that i think is.. Sad.

I think you guys are reading waaaay too deep into things with this thread and this idea in general.

From a gameplay perspective to implement this kind of thing with the attention it deserves is probably an expansion's worth of content. I would love to see it, but for right now with less than 4 hours of the game streamed online, I'd be happy just getting my hands on the game and exploring what currently IS possible, which from what I've seen looks like a lot.

Thematically, I have no problem with the idea of "controlled" space. Think territorial waters and national air space in our actual, real world. Russian fighter jet flies into British airspace, gets told to remove itself post-haste or risk a massive diplomatic incident, Russian jet promptly leaves as it's standing orders are likely "If told to leave, then leave".

I mean I guess there could be a prompt implemented whereby if you and another faction are both colonising a planet in the same system, the prompt could open a diplomatic negotiation whereby you could try and force them out diplomatically (or cede the colony rights to them) OR continue regardless and declare war (resulting in "contested space" until the war is decided, whereby you either force them out or they force you out and during this time no colony progress is developed). I'm no game designer though and haven't seen enough to know if these things are possible.

 

[lordmichael95]

I think you guys are reading waaaay too deep into things with this thread and this idea in general.

From a gameplay perspective to implement this kind of thing with the attention it deserves is probably an expansion's worth of content. I would love to see it, but for right now with less than 4 hours of the game streamed online, I'd be happy just getting my hands on the game and exploring what currently IS possible, which from what I've seen looks like a lot.

Thematically, I have no problem with the idea of "controlled" space. Think territorial waters and national air space in our actual, real world. Russian fighter jet flies into British airspace, gets told to remove itself post-haste or risk a massive diplomatic incident, Russian jet promptly leaves as it's standing orders are likely "If told to leave, then leave".

I mean I guess there could be a prompt implemented whereby if you and another faction are both colonising a planet in the same system, the prompt could open a diplomatic negotiation whereby you could try and force them out diplomatically (or cede the colony rights to them) OR continue regardless and declare war (resulting in "contested space" until the war is decided, whereby you either force them out or they force you out and during this time no colony progress is developed). I'm no game designer though and haven't seen enough to know if these things are possible.

I believe that you are right KingHoot. If we get a disputed territory system, it will come in a future expansion.

 

[Grunthex]

I just want to chime in to say I don't think there's a problem with the system as it stands. But most importantly, I'm glad Paradox doesn't make game design decisions based on the complaints of a few forum posters who have never played the game.

Keep up the good work.

 

[serpentskirt]

Well, during the stream they have mentioned that there were unusually high amount of native-type worlds which give you quite a nice happiness boost. I guess colony-rushing in usual game will result in really quick growth of factions which will just go independent (and could be supported by your neighbours you "stole" land from). While more balanced expansion will offset factions/divergence with new technologies/edicts.

 

[airpirate]

I don't know if you should be able to necessarily keep the outpost when this sort of thing happens because exploits could be really hard to avoid, but there ought to be something that makes this feel less gamey. Maybe you get a border dispute CB if you're X% done with the outpost when you lose it, maybe you get a relationship malus, maybe either of these things are dependent on your ethics choices, just something.

 

[Summin Cool]

Under what possible circumstances would you *not* stand your ground? You are effectively asking for the removal of border blocking abd tge myriad exploits this would create.

Thats the price of losing the race and having this option will only cause a lot of problems and exploits.

What are these exploits?

 

[Cruxador]

It would be tons of tiny wars and integrations though, just to deal with this area (of ~4 habitable systems). Something I am really not keen on in a galaxy of 1000 stars

Isn't this fine? Just because the galaxy is huge doesn't really mean anything at this stage, your place in it is a lot smaller than 1000 stars. There are 975 that are beyond what you can see and are totally irrelevant until later on.

 

[Kayden_II]

In the most recent episode of Extraterrestrial Thursday, at 00:38:56 Wiz began constructing a Frontier Outpost in the system of Ereness in order to expand Blorg borders.

Unbeknownst to us, the neighboring slimy lizards had parked a colony ship in the nearby Ziamon System, and upon their colony's completion at 00:49:03, the Blorg construction ship was automatically evicted and forced to cancel the Frontier Outpost that was under construction.

GOOD ! ...

Look, I understand why Stellaris restricts border access and requires diplomatic permission like EU4 (as opposed to open borders like CK2), but the Blorg Construction Ship and Frontier Outpost were already there before the scale-skin colony completed (and weren't even in the same star system). I suspect the same sort of nonsense would occur if it had been a Blorg Colony Ship on Ereness--why should Blorg colonists be forcefully evicted without given a choice when some cold-blooded lizards began parking their tails in another star system?

First in Time, First in Line ...
The Lizards established their Colony in the Ziamon-System, BEFORE the Blorgs finished their Outpost in the Ereness-System ...

Sure, we MAY ultimately want to withdraw peacefully to avoid conflict, but at least give players the option to stand our ground and fight. Allow our Frontier Outpost/Colony to complete at the cost of starting a border skirmish/war, or better yet, giving those despicable fork-tongues a nice CB against us.
I've always hated how some other games magically teleport armies back into my borders automatically due to some treaty or forcibly cancel my expensive, long-term monument/wonder construction simply because some other faction had finished building one first... and this forced eviction is no different. When I first saw overlapped boundaries in Stellaris screenshots, I was excited about the prospect of entangled, complicated border conflicts. Please let us stand our ground and compete for our Frontier Outpost/Colony and not resort to this type of heavy-handed game mechanics that overwhelmingly favor "first-come first serve" and "winner takes all" binary outcomes. Yes, I'd exploit and abuse the hell out of this sort of binary system, but I'd much rather have a more realistic system where simultaneous claims are allowed.

I understand your Thoughts, but NO, because - What are the Results ? ...
A. The Blorgs (Wiz) would have a (single) Blorg-Enclave in the Ereness-System, surrounded by the Lizard-Empire: Border-Gore-Risk - No, Thanks ! ...
B. The Blorgs (Wiz) would get a CB - ONLY for the Ereness-System with the Risk, that after a succesful War, the Blorgs (especially in the Case, that the Blorgs would be under AI-Control) would ONLY get the Ereness-System: Border-Gore-Risk - No, Thanks ! ...

Sorry, but I'm a Fan of cohesive Empires or at Most - fragmented Federations, BUT with cohesive Federation-Members (Empires).

 

[Solx001]

Hi everyone, so I've read through this whole thread and thought I'd sign up and account and offer some solutions that haven't really been discussed.
-Lets put it this way, Species A and Species B are both trying to colonize the same system, which perhaps has two habitable worlds of whatever variety. Species A lands colony first, but a sphere of influence is not immediately established. A couple months later, Species B lands a colony on another planet.

-Species A is obviously going to finish its colony first (depending on modifiers, whatever those may be). But instead of just kicking Species B out of the system when that colony is built, there is a short period before a sphere of influence is established, say 3-6 months. If Species B manages to complete its colony before that timer runs out, then the system becomes Contested. If the timer runs out before Species B completes its colony, it is kicked out and the Sphere of influence goes to Species A.

-A Contested system could be represented on the galaxy map by having both empire colors appear as diagonal bars in the sphere of influence. Both species will now have several options of how they want to proceed. Both have a claim on the system as well as a CB on one another. So the first option could be that they go to war over the system. Under the war goals, the aggressor can decide whether they want to kick the other species out of the system completely, removing the population from that planet; or enforcing their claim and bringing that colony and its population under its control, conquering it basically. And from what I understand, the defender can choose either war goal as well.

-It would be nice, however, if there were more diplomatic options to deal with the situation. Reasons for a more diplomatic approach could be that the species could be potential friends and allies, and they want to avoid a war that would sour relations; one side is stronger than or equal to the other and a war would be very costly; or one or both sides are pacifists and just want to avoid a war at all costs while still keeping control of their colony.

-Diplomatic options could be as follows: One side agrees to give up their colony and leave the system completely, moving that population elsewhere; One side agrees to cede the colony over to the other with some form of compensation; both sides agree to joint ownership of the system (this option would not be available to xenophobes or fanatic militarists, maybe others; or maybe only available to xenophiles; or only available with high enough relations).

Now of course, this only deals with one system being contested. I'm not sure how it would deal with multiple systems in the sphere of influence, like in the instance of the Blorgs. Perhaps it could be the sphere of influence that is contested rather than just the star systems. This is just my idea of how to deal with contested systems without one side just being magically kicked out or having to go to war. I DO want the Sphere of influence to block other empires from just colonizing inside my territory, but if I really want a system and the AI is already colonizing it, I also want a chance to get it without necessarily starting a war. Even though I'm not pacifist, I'd still like some diplomatic options available to deal with territory. I'm also aware that if some of this doesn't already exist in the game, its unlikely to be added before release, so perhaps these options could be considered for an expansion or in a later patch.

 

[Strager]

Under what possible circumstances would you *not* stand your ground? You are effectively asking for the removal of border blocking abd tge myriad exploits this would create.

I went to bed agreeing with you @Wiz and woke up this morning agreeing with @ahhheygao - Partially at least.

I agree that there shouldn't be a "mechanic" to address this, but it is a valid issue. What I would suggest is that when a colony/outpost is founded you immediately claim JUST that system and slowly, as it completes, the borders around it expand. This would prevent the situation above, and still maintain the current "border blocking" system which is pretty essential to the game.