Please get rid of AI cheating (i.e. Lucky Nations)

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Korburss

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The difference is that the AI gets arbitrary bonuses that are extremely unrealistic. Additionally, with Ironman active, the player isn't capable of anything the AI is not.
It is ridiculous and incredibly cripplingly bad for balance that AI countries are able to pop 6/5/6 generals/rulers out en masse while player countries in similar circumstances can barely get a 3/3/3.

I recently did the "traditional player" achievement by getting ideas, policy, ect to keep my tradition at permanent 100 and had offensive/defensive/aristocratic ideas and I was pumping out two star generals constantly. I'd say it is less a "balance" issue than it is a "style of play" issue. Personally I like to max out tech reduction and such to get overbuilt and economic power, rather than direct "military" power, relying on the ability to forever fight a war and that is my "style". While "maxing" generals and/or improving troops is a completely different style. Both being valid but radically different.
 

CaptainChiatrol

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For some reason a lot of people around here don't get that EUIV is designed with certain challenges.

Like Horde not getting tech upgrades and a million other things people whine about.

Ironman has certain pre-set values because thats how the dev feels the challenge should be, whining about it won't make a difference, so it's a complete waste of time to ask for ironman balance changes, changes to the horde challenge, rotw countries being lesser than Europa, it's 100% intentional design in order to create many different ways to play.

So if you play as england and have the lucky nation bonuses on your side is that part of the extra challenge?

I think it's more about railroading history to reach the same rough conclusions and doesn't changed as frequently and drastically as crusader kings 2.
 

Checco

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OMG AI is cheating, what about the fact that you have a brain and the AI don't? This isn't cheating as well?

As long as anyone among the devs thinks that "Human player is cheating because he has a brain" I think nothing will change.

(also, I'd like anyone to explain me how a human can "play without his brain in order to stop cheating" :D))
 

ahyangyi

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(also, I'd like anyone to explain me how a human can "play without his brain in order to stop cheating" :D))

Calculate the opinion bonuses and maluses for every decision you make, then make decisions solely based on it.

For example, France (allied with Portugal, Scandinavia, Austria and England) DoWed your Spain (allied with Navarre) over a claim on a 1 basetax oversea province. You are quickly losing the war and France sends a peace offer to you. Instead of making the decision, you calculate:

Length of war: -61
Proposed offer: -1
Warscore: +23
Relative strength of alliances: +20
France is making gains: +10
France has control over the war target: +3

Since the result is less than zero, you naturally refuse France's peace offer and drag the hopeless war on.
 

ChildeR

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As long as achievements are meant to be from an equal setup, lucky nations won't get turned. And that's fine, I like it. However, they should add non-strict ironman like in CK2, without achievements, but settings and mods allowed. (Yes, I've said this before.)
 

Illianor123

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As long as achievements are meant to be from an equal setup, lucky nations won't get turned. And that's fine, I like it. However, they should add non-strict ironman like in CK2, without achievements, but settings and mods allowed. (Yes, I've said this before.)
What is the difference between this and normal non iron man games where you can change the settings and add mods but cant get achievements?

I did not know this.
It gets bumped down the line the same way annexing a lucky nation does.
 

Ranjid

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Calculate the opinion bonuses and maluses for every decision you make, then make decisions solely based on it.

For example, France (allied with Portugal, Scandinavia, Austria and England) DoWed your Spain (allied with Navarre) over a claim on a 1 basetax oversea province. You are quickly losing the war and France sends a peace offer to you. Instead of making the decision, you calculate:

Length of war: -61
Proposed offer: -1
Warscore: +23
Relative strength of alliances: +20
France is making gains: +10
France has control over the war target: +3

Since the result is less than zero, you naturally refuse France's peace offer and drag the hopeless war on.

You're under the false assumption that the AI would _ever_ send a peace offer at 23 Warscore (at least when it's winning). In addition to your 1 BT Grain province in Africa they of course also want all of Aragon and your tradepower.
 

Chewy Yui

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I would like the option for Random Lucky Nations in ironman, assuming it wont use the same "list" and will give nations like Ulm lucky status xD
 

Demusch

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This thread again? It seems to come up every week, never actually offering any new insights, but ah well.
You can turn lucky nations off. You can also mod in an ironman-like function, disabling the console and reload options. Problem solved.
Ironman is meant to be the challenging mode, which is also why achievements are there etc. etc.
 

Qoff

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As long as anyone among the devs thinks that "Human player is cheating because he has a brain" I think nothing will change.

(also, I'd like anyone to explain me how a human can "play without his brain in order to stop cheating" :D))

If you're losing the game due to Lucky nations probably you're not using your brain. If the AI was better there wouldnt be necessary those buffs, but the AI is dumb.
 

grommile

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there is a simple solution for this problem. just dont use the console and just dont reload. do you guys really have no self-control?
Ironman mode gives me 100% automation of saving the game. That's a huge QoL benefit, and it is immensely frustrating that the only way to get that QoL benefit is to play the unmodified game with default-or-harder difficulty settings.

I happen to like the unmodified game with default difficulty settings, which is why I don't make much noise about this deficiency compared to some people.
 

zorkman

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I agree totally with the OP. Cheating Nations must go. I never play with them, though probably would like to play Ironman, & find my games are far better off without them.
 

Arizal

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I'm with those wanting the lucky nations to go... in the long term. Ideally, the game wouldn't need such a crutch to resemble history. Now, I realize it would be impossible to create a game with mechanics using randomization which would then give today's world as a result at each playthrough.

However, I also feel lucky nations is cheating because the AI benefiting from it doesn't play with the same general rules than the other countries. At least in an oberve game, they definitely have an advantage. I would like the game to simulate better some historical circumstances instead of relying on such an arbitrary modifier as lucky nation. As someone said, France was populated and its power came from that. England was able to colonize most of the world because it was isolated on an island. France would thus have more manpower than others because some parts of its territory would be more populated (more BT) and England would have a bonus to colonist because its mainland has many coastline provinces. Giving bonuses linked to those kind of things would be acceptable railroading because it wouldn't feel forced on one tag or another. England would probably lose the bonus if it were to inherit France, but would gain France innate bonus because it would have conquered its territory. Spain crumbled because it became incredibly rich after conquering the Americas which were closer to it than for any other european country (except Portugal, which had its share of it but was smaller).

Not everything can have foreseeable causes, of course. The rise of Brandenburg is a common example. Yet, someone can argue that Poland had a flaw as soon as it allowed its kings to be voted by the aristocracy and selected within neighbours candidates. Still, this doesn't really explain how Prussia became an highly organized and militarized country. There could be some leads, however they would be more controversial than explications about France. Sweden involvment in the 30 years war and carving of a little baltic empire was also such an unforeseen event.

For those situations which could clearly be related to a general mechanic linked to the territory, the religion or the government type instead of the country, I would like much more for those general mechanic to be there and appropriately exploited by any AI finding itself in the situation than having to battle against an AI which would be unequal by design.

I remember when I first read EUIV DDs. I sulked the game during many months because I was angry about lucky nations and national ideas. In my opinion, this was wrong because it wasn't the existence of those countries which gave then advantages, but rather the advantages given by their situations (and sometimes luck) which built the countries as they were. I finally leapt forward and appreciated the game enough to want it to be upgraded, but I still think that, with a change : it would not be good to abandon lucky nations now and replace it by nothing. I think those situational bonuses I talked about should be gradually added while the lucky nations modifier would slowly become less important. Maybe it wouldn't be ever pulled out of the game, because some people like that if Brandenburg succeed and Saxony fail, but it shouldn't anyway stay in the same form. There should be other way than by military and MP bonuses to represent luck.
 

Checco

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If you're losing the game due to Lucky nations probably you're not using your brain. If the AI was better there wouldnt be necessary those buffs, but the AI is dumb.

I'm not losing any game, but I do not manage to get achievements anymore.

Usually you need to win wars and expand someway to get any, and it works poorly when lucky France/Austria keep you warned 24/7, asking half your territory if they ever win against you despite waging war with 4/5 times your MP.

I'm not sure how many would find the above fun, or just a waste of time.
 

Qoff

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  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Victoria 2
  • Warlock 2: The Exiled
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
I'm not losing any game, but I do not manage to get achievements anymore.

Usually you need to win wars and expand someway to get any, and it works poorly when lucky France/Austria keep you warned 24/7, asking half your territory if they ever win against you despite waging war with 4/5 times your MP.

I'm not sure how many would find the above fun, or just a waste of time.

Seems that you want to steamroll the AI and this isn't supposed to happen, Lucky Nations must stay.