Please fix the Confucianism religion.

[Vampiresoap]

As of now, you can't change the cultures of the heretic/heathen provinces that you already harmonized.

I don't think this is intended because the game keeps telling you that the religions that you harmonized are considered truth faith for all intends and purposes.

 

[Romanix90]

Yeah, i totally agree on this one. Basically it's sort of a religious conversion, only difference is that you don't convert them but harmonize them. And 30+ years after you discover that you can't culture convert because of harmonized religion thing ever. I mean price have been paid in 30+ years of harmonization so i don't see a reason block this.

 

[Sidolowka]

Confucianism in general needs a total rework, being the only non-Pagan religion that actively punishes you for using its mechanics.

Both converting provinces and harmonising religions lowers Harmony, which gives you +25% dev cost, -1 legitimacy/-2 meritocracy and -3 Tolerance of the Truce Faith. Harmonising some heretic religons will sometimes result in a net increase in unrest, due to you having lower tolerance of the true faith than of heretics.

And even when you due harmonise other religions, not only are you locked out from culture converting them, the 'bonii' that they give are pathetic compared to the amount of time spent on harmonising them and the deficits from low harmony.

• Christian group: -5% Stab Cost
• Muslim group: +5% Trade Efficiency
• Dharmic group: +1 ToTF
• Pagan group: -0.5 Unrest
• Shinto: +5% Inf CA
• Vajrayana: +5% Production Efficiency
• Theravada: -5% Advisor Cost
• Mahayana: -7% Idea Cost

Not only are none of these worth the 34 years of harmonisation, they're also outclassed by literally every other religion's bonuses, bar Animist. Vajrayana right next door recieves +5% discipline, +5% land morale and +2 diplo rep without doing anything, while Shinto gets +10% morale and some pretty significant modifiers from Isolatinism like -5% Tech Cost, -0.03 War Exhaustion, -10% Dev Cost and +1 Missionary.

There's also the minor, but infuriating fact that harmonising a religion makes you consider other countries to be the same religion, wihle they still consider you a heathen/heretic, meaning that you'll leak your institutions to them, but their institutions won't spread to you.

There's a reason why any Ming/Korea guide worth their salt suggests that you ditch Confucianism ASAP.

 

[Vampiresoap]

Confucianism in general needs a total rework, being the only non-Pagan religion that actively punishes you for using its mechanics.

Both converting provinces and harmonising religions lowers Harmony, which gives you +25% dev cost, -1 legitimacy/-2 meritocracy and -3 Tolerance of the Truce Faith. Harmonising some heretic religons will sometimes result in a net increase in unrest, due to you having lower tolerance of the true faith than of heretics.

And even when you due harmonise other religions, not only are you locked out from culture converting them, the 'bonii' that they give are pathetic compared to the amount of time spent on harmonising them and the deficits from low harmony.

• Christian group: -5% Stab Cost
• Muslim group: +5% Trade Efficiency
• Dharmic group: +1 ToTF
• Pagan group: -0.5 Unrest
• Shinto: +5% Inf CA
• Vajrayana: +5% Production Efficiency
• Theravada: -5% Advisor Cost
• Mahayana: -7% Idea Cost

Not only are none of these worth the 34 years of harmonisation, they're also outclassed by literally every other religion's bonuses, bar Animist. Vajrayana right next door recieves +5% discipline, +5% land morale and +2 diplo rep without doing anything, while Shinto gets +10% morale and some pretty significant modifiers from Isolatinism like -5% Tech Cost, -0.03 War Exhaustion, -10% Dev Cost and +1 Missionary.

There's also the minor, but infuriating fact that harmonising a religion makes you consider other countries to be the same religion, wihle they still consider you a heathen/heretic, meaning that you'll leak your institutions to them, but their institutions won't spread to you.

There's a reason why any Ming/Korea guide worth their salt suggests that you ditch Confucianism ASAP.

What, you don't wanna spend 30 years to get -5% Stab Cost? As the great Bruce Lee used to say, be like water and suck it up, my friend.

 

[Sidolowka]

What, you don't wanna spend 30 years to get -5% Stab Cost? As the great Bruce Lee used to say, be like water and suck it up, my friend.

Ah yes, indeed how could I miss such an intricate nuance that Paradox surely intended. To emulate the patience required by Confucian ideals, they gave us a long-termed deficit with no real benefit.

 

[Dragonquack]

Confucianism in general needs a total rework, being the only non-Pagan religion that actively punishes you for using its mechanics.

Both converting provinces and harmonising religions lowers Harmony, which gives you +25% dev cost, -1 legitimacy/-2 meritocracy and -3 Tolerance of the Truce Faith. Harmonising some heretic religons will sometimes result in a net increase in unrest, due to you having lower tolerance of the true faith than of heretics.

And even when you due harmonise other religions, not only are you locked out from culture converting them, the 'bonii' that they give are pathetic compared to the amount of time spent on harmonising them and the deficits from low harmony.

• Christian group: -5% Stab Cost
• Muslim group: +5% Trade Efficiency
• Dharmic group: +1 ToTF
• Pagan group: -0.5 Unrest
• Shinto: +5% Inf CA
• Vajrayana: +5% Production Efficiency
• Theravada: -5% Advisor Cost
• Mahayana: -7% Idea Cost

Not only are none of these worth the 34 years of harmonisation, they're also outclassed by literally every other religion's bonuses, bar Animist. Vajrayana right next door recieves +5% discipline, +5% land morale and +2 diplo rep without doing anything, while Shinto gets +10% morale and some pretty significant modifiers from Isolatinism like -5% Tech Cost, -0.03 War Exhaustion, -10% Dev Cost and +1 Missionary.

There's also the minor, but infuriating fact that harmonising a religion makes you consider other countries to be the same religion, wihle they still consider you a heathen/heretic, meaning that you'll leak your institutions to them, but their institutions won't spread to you.

There's a reason why any Ming/Korea guide worth their salt suggests that you ditch Confucianism ASAP.

While I agree the bonuses need to be much better, the harmonization mechanic does somewhat accurately represent the cultural assimilation of other religions under Chinese empires in history, and the last thing I want is sacrificing historical accuracy for ease of gameplay

 

[holyvigil]

Culture should be able to be changed. And osmosis of the chinese faith should occur in your harmonized provinces.

I think the bonuses are fine.

I just think it should be possible to one Faith as them.

 

[iClipse]

Confucianism in general needs a total rework, being the only non-Pagan religion that actively punishes you for using its mechanics.

Both converting provinces and harmonising religions lowers Harmony, which gives you +25% dev cost, -1 legitimacy/-2 meritocracy and -3 Tolerance of the Truce Faith. Harmonising some heretic religons will sometimes result in a net increase in unrest, due to you having lower tolerance of the true faith than of heretics.

And even when you due harmonise other religions, not only are you locked out from culture converting them, the 'bonii' that they give are pathetic compared to the amount of time spent on harmonising them and the deficits from low harmony.

• Christian group: -5% Stab Cost
• Muslim group: +5% Trade Efficiency
• Dharmic group: +1 ToTF
• Pagan group: -0.5 Unrest
• Shinto: +5% Inf CA
• Vajrayana: +5% Production Efficiency
• Theravada: -5% Advisor Cost
• Mahayana: -7% Idea Cost

Not only are none of these worth the 34 years of harmonisation, they're also outclassed by literally every other religion's bonuses, bar Animist. Vajrayana right next door recieves +5% discipline, +5% land morale and +2 diplo rep without doing anything, while Shinto gets +10% morale and some pretty significant modifiers from Isolatinism like -5% Tech Cost, -0.03 War Exhaustion, -10% Dev Cost and +1 Missionary.

There's also the minor, but infuriating fact that harmonising a religion makes you consider other countries to be the same religion, wihle they still consider you a heathen/heretic, meaning that you'll leak your institutions to them, but their institutions won't spread to you.

There's a reason why any Ming/Korea guide worth their salt suggests that you ditch Confucianism ASAP.

Considering tolerance of heathens and heretics is capped at 0 and tolerance of the true faith isn't, it's generally not true that conquering provinces gives increased unrest, even at 0% Harmony. In general, you shouldn't be at 0% harmony anyway. You have enough time to harmonise with all religions without letting your harmony drop below 50 (if you take the corresponding events that increase the harmonisation progress at least and stay at +3 stab).

In general, I find confucianism a fantastic religion. At the very least for single player. Don't really know why people hate on it so much. Maybe, because it's a misunderstood religion? It's a religion that requires some planning, true.

If you follow the general guideline of first conquering about 20 dev of a religion, then harmonise that religion and only AFTER that you conquer the region, you're basically playing the game where all religions are considered your faith. Take Korea for example. You can first conquer about 20 dev provinces from Japan, harmonise it, and only after that conquer Japan. You have plenty of clay to conquer in China in the mean time. While conquering Japan, take 20 dev of Hindu provinces, from Brunei for example. Harmonise it. After you've done that, you can conquer entire India with practically no revolts. Rinse and repeat. If you go: "Hey, I should conquer India!" and only then start harmonising conquering it while also harmonising Hindu religion, yeah the fault's on you.

The bonuses are nice, but not what you take the religion for. Also, it's a unique religion with unique mechanics. Playing as a confucian country feels and plays different than any other country, which is what this game is all about. By the endgame when you have most of those bonusses though, they really do add up.

So in general: weak early game, super strong late game. So, if you stop playing at 1600, then you're not going to feel the benefits from the religion too much.

For me, it was the religion in my first world conquest, and made the game so much easier than any other religion.

 

[Sidolowka]

Considering tolerance of heathens and heretics is capped at 0 and tolerance of the true faith isn't

No it isn't. Heathen and Heretic Tolerance is capped at +3. Confucianism gives +2 and another +2 by event, which means you already get +3 Tolerance of Heretics without Humanist. Harmonising drops your base ToTF by 3, which at the very worse case scenario means you could have 0 ToTF but 3 Tolerance of Heretics.

In general, you shouldn't be at 0% harmony anyway.

Yes that's true, but why does Confucianism punish you for using its mechanics in the first place? The only other religions in the game that do that are the three American Pagan religions, and they get incredible bonuses out of the negative events, not -5% stab cost. And even if you're hovering somewhere around 20~30 Harmony, that's still -1.5 ToTF, +15% Dev cost and -1 Yearly Meritocracy.

In general, I find confucianism a fantastic religion

Anything can be done in Singleplayer. Even Animist can be used to WC in Singleplayer. Does that mean that Animist is a 'fantastic' religion? At least Animist doesn't punish you for converting provinces so there's that.

all religions are considered your faith

You
A. Cannot culture convert in harmonised provinces, which is particularly crucial for Korea moreso than Ming, due to them being the only nation in the game to have one culture in its culture group. (Khmer will join them in this dubious hall of fame next update though)
B. Do not get the diplomatic benefits that you would get from just converting to a majority religion
C. Are locked out of the Religious Idea Group

you can conquer entire India with practically no revolts

This is also possible by taking Humanist Ideas with literally any other religion. Or by just playing a Sunni nation. Being Sunni gives you +5 Heathen tolerance from Dhimmis, Dhimmi privileges and legitimacy while also letting you completely ignore religious unity. Or being Tengri and synchronising Hindu. Or just trade company-ing India like a sane person would do as Ming or Korea.

The bonuses are nice

No they're not. Even Anglicanism, the worst Christian denomination, has better religious bonuses. Their -10% dev cost modifier alone leaves anything Confucianism has to offer in the dust, and they even get free cash and mercantilisim on top of that.
Shinto next door gives +10% land morale for free.
All Buddhist denominations give +5% discipline and +2 dip rep.
Tengri has all the good points about Confucianism (synchronising religions and tolerance), with none of the bad ones. They also get -20% regiment cost. That they can also swap out for any of the myriad of good modifiers they give. Synchronising Shinto as a Confucian country gives +5% Inf CA. For Tengri it gives -1 Global Unrest and +5% Discipline. A rather mild difference, innit.

Also, it's a unique religion with unique mechanics. Playing as a confucian country feels and plays different than any other country, which is what this game is all about.

This I partially agree with. Playing a Confucian nation is a completely different experience from playing any other religion, but it feels like a chore, because you're locked out of so many mechanics that other religions get (Religious conversions, Religious ideas, Good bonuses, Culture conversion etc.) that it feels less like flavour and more of a roadblock to prevent Ming and Korea from expanding.

Eating a 10 dollar sandwich from Subway is a decent experience. Eating that moldy green sandwich from the rubbish bin round the corner is a very different experience from the Subway one; doesn't mean it's necessarily a pleasant one.

The most optimal way of playing with Confucianism (besides ditching it) is to take Humanist and pretend that you're an atheist nation with no religious mechanics.

 

[BlazeKnight_]

IMO, Harmony does not even make sense. Several religions have been persecuted in Neo-Confucian society, such as Buddhism (most prominently in Joseon) and Christianity. Yet there is no way to model this in game since Confucianism tanks an ungodly amount of harmony for converting provinces (literally 1 to 1 based on province development). Confucian boni, as mentioned, are not only mediocre modifiers, but are small. Top tier religions have access to strong military and economic modifiers, most notably Morale, Discipline, and Development Cost reduction. Confucianism has access to none of this. Even Mahayana, arguably the worst non-flavorless religion, is better than Confucianism thanks to its easy access to 5% discipline. If your one niche is that you can prevent religious intolerance (something every other religion can already do by converting), then that's pretty bad unless you're WC / hyperblobbing against AIs, in which case it is more quality of life than anything.

Also, the Neo-Confucian event does not make sense. Why does picking Neo-Confucian give +2 Tolerance Heretics? It should be flipped.

 

[Piotrzeci]

I think bonuses are kinda fine, and the religion is pretty fun to play too. But the culture converting stuff is pretty annoying, since there is no way to ever change the religion there. At least before harmonization you can spend an enormous amount of harmony to convert the province, after there is no way to convert culture.

It just makes no sense to have it "Oh, you can only convert in true faith provinces", also "We see it as the true faith".

I also wonder if the era bonus of +institution spread in true faith provinces works, guess it doesn't.

 

[AngelRay]

Since I asked the same things long time ago, please, yes.