Please fix anachronistic societies

[Boucicaut]

Dominicans should not exist before the 13th century and the Hashashin should not exist before the 11th century. It is silly having these societies at the 8th and 9th century start dates. Hermeticism also didn't become a thing in Europe until the late middle-ages.

Please give them foundation events/requirements such as the holy orders currently have. They should spawn at appropriate dates if requirements are met.

 

[Tryvenyal]

I assume you are right. But how fun would it be with no major societies untill endgame? I rarely play lategame. I likely start in 769 and play 200- 300 years. No society for me then I guess?

 

[Rags17]

I assume you are right. But how fun would it be with no major societies until endgame? I rarely play late game. I likely start in 769 and play 200- 300 years. No society for me then I guess?

Which brings as to a point tat has been raised MANY times in the past - why are there so few societies in the game ? Not ever society has to be fully fleshed out (Benedictines cough Dominicans), I think it would be great if they added say half a dozen "filler" societies that wouldn't have any long quests or event chains, but which would add a small bonus to fellow characters, say Hedonists and Drunkards in the Drinking Club, Wroth and Arbitrary characters in the Duelists, Gardeners and Gamemasters in the Homebodies etc.

This would be a great way to give players a small advantage (and a matching disadvantage) for little actual commitment, TBH I am getting tired of smashing up laboratories and chasing up ingredients - how about a simple club or collective where players get fellow member bonuses and some small stat gain, but perhaps at the cost of some other stat loss and maybe some gold cost. Wine, women and song don't come cheap you know !

 

[Tryvenyal]

Which brings as to a point tat has been raised MANY times in the past - why are there so few societies in the game ? Not ever society has to be fully fleshed out (Benedictines cough Dominicans), I think it would be great if they added say half a dozen "filler" societies that wouldn't have any long quests or event chains, but which would add a small bonus to fellow characters, say Hedonists and Drunkards in the Drinking Club, Wroth and Arbitrary characters in the Duelists, Gardeners and Gamemasters in the Homebodies etc.

This would be a great way to give players a small advantage (and a matching disadvantage) for little actual commitment, TBH I am getting tired of smashing up laboratories and chasing up ingredients - how about a simple club or collective where players get fellow member bonuses and some small stat gain, but perhaps at the cost of some other stat loss and maybe some gold cost. Wine, women and song don't come cheap you know !

I would like a "Gentlemen´s lounge" - a diplobased society with alot "Couruching" stuff or a free- for- all "Duelistic" society but hey... Would it not cross into WoL Focus territory? We can't expect Pdx to violate previous DLC content just because it would make the game better, can we?

We need to come up with something better.. New.. A society as is today is a deep- dive. All of them are. It´s members are not allowed to "just follow the stream", really. At least not the player. I don't think Pdx will create low-ambition/low impact societies. And I don't think the crowd would fully appriciate it either as it would be a big diff in powers.

 

[Snow Crystal]

Which brings as to a point tat has been raised MANY times in the past - why are there so few societies in the game ?

Because it takes a LOT of time to create them, and a LOT of time to test them.

 

[Me_]

Because it takes a LOT of time to create them, and a LOT of time to test them.

I really hope that Holy Fury is not the last DLC, because I'd love to see you add more of them.

 

[Tryvenyal]

Because it takes a LOT of time to create them, and a LOT of time to test them.

Check out some of the mod - created societies. Think most modders would be very happy to have have a chance to get their work included in the game
You can announce a competition!

 

[Rags17]

Because it takes a LOT of time to create them, and a LOT of time to test them.

But that was the point of my post - it doesn't have to !

I would be more than happy with an extra half dozen generic societies that gave me little more than an opinion boost with like-minded vassals and maybe a stat boost or chance for a bonus now and then. Oftentimes I actually DON'T have my character join any society because of all of the annoying pop ups involved, even though I know that on the whole being in a society is pretty much only a good thing (except maybe Satanists). If I really want my character to improve their traits or increase their Learning then yes, I am happy to go put up with rose gardens and ingredient hunts, otherwise it just gets in the way.

IMHO there should be a spectrum of societies ranging from the "Yeah, me and the guys get together every couple of weeksa to roll dice and drink mead" to "Kingdom ? What kingdom ? Can't you see I'm busy here - the boys and I are going out again and need me to come along !". Players should be able to choose between joining an informal club that is little more than an intro to other characters, to joining a fully structured (and detailed) society that is in fact a realm/court all of its own, compete with intrigue, power plays, Favours, factions, civil wars and banishments - the whole works.

 

[Boucicaut]

Well the monastic societies are pretty much the same content wise. Just look it up, the events and everything else the Benedictine order has is 100% identical to what you have for Othodox and Myaphysite monks. The only difference in the dominican order are the "powers" so to speak. Adding the Franciscan order or any of the several other Catholic orders would mostly be a matter of adding new graphics keeping with that line.

I see no big issue with having the Dominicans, Hashashin and Hermetics spawning at later and historically accurate dates. They currently stick out like a sore thumb in a game which (mostly) tries to have every content based on actual history or myth. It kills the setting having such huge anachronisms.

If anything, the rise of the Dominican order should at least be tied to the rise of a major heresy(as it was in history with he Cathars). And at the very least the Hashashin society should be dependant on the rise of the Hashashin holy order(which I believe only occurs in the 11th century as it was historically). Having they just being there at the 8th century kills the roleplaying involved and makes no sense.

 

[AEWHistory]

I assume you are right. But how fun would it be with no major societies untill endgame? I rarely play lategame. I likely start in 769 and play 200- 300 years. No society for me then I guess?

It needn’t be that way though. Not only are there societies that could be added, but other things can be done to add to the game early on that allows moving anachronistic entities back to their proper time periods. For example, the way that the reformations of the pagan religions are being treated in Holy Furry D) can be done for religions like Christianity and Islam, as well as others. Islam was still very new and giving ‘decision avenues’ that would mold the religion going forward and maybe even creating your own heresies would be not only interesting but a practical reality in simulating this time frame. As it is the game treats Islam as an immutable finished product with a few clear heresies that come down the pike. In a game that changes history it needn’t be only the pagans that might have changed.

Also, once you give proper historical time entries to the religious movements like the Druze, you can also add a start option to randomize the established heresies. This way people who want accuracy can have it but those who want the flavor of lots of different religions, even if anachronistic, can have that instead.

Then there are things like the Arians. The last Arian King’s we’re gone in the 7th century, but the concept of Arianism was probably still in existence when the game began. Consequently, they could be added as a fading group for the 769 start and more can be found I am sure..... Hmmm, I think I need to contact some old friends who are medievalists.

 

[Tryvenyal]

@AEWHistory I´m just saying they can't remove paid content after it´s added without proper replacement for "charlemange start"- players. We have paid for societies aswell. As per the forum, 769 start is not very popular. I´m not sharing that view but I respect it and I don't think PDX even think of adding special societies only for this era of time(say 769 - 950).

 

[Tryvenyal]

It needn’t be that way though. Not only are there societies that could be added, but other things can be done to add to the game early on that allows moving anachronistic entities back to their proper time periods. For example, the way that the reformations of the pagan religions are being treated in Holy Furry D) can be done for religions like Christianity and Islam, as well as others. Islam was still very new and giving ‘decision avenues’ that would mold the religion going forward and maybe even creating your own heresies would be not only interesting but a practical reality in simulating this time frame. As it is the game treats Islam as an immutable finished product with a few clear heresies that come down the pike. In a game that changes history it needn’t be only the pagans that might have changed.

Also, once you give proper historical time entries to the religious movements like the Druze, you can also add a start option to randomize the established heresies. This way people who want accuracy can have it but those who want the flavor of lots of different religions, even if anachronistic, can have that instead.

Then there are things like the Arians. The last Arian King’s we’re gone in the 7th century, but the concept of Arianism was probably still in existence when the game began. Consequently, they could be added as a fading group for the 769 start and more can be found I am sure..... Hmmm, I think I need to contact some old friends who are medievalists.

I´s very much like all these things. But considering how low the early starts seems to be rated among influensive players, I can't see it happen.

 

[klopkr]

I agree there should be foundation dates but I think the Dominicans can have a larger range for their creation than the actual founding date. I think Hermetic orders should be split by region and have ones in europe start opening up in the 9-10th century.

 

[Tryvenyal]

Well. A gamerule solves most things. "Society start-date" on/off

 

[Boucicaut]

Well. A gamerule solves most things. "Society start-date" on/off

Yes, that would fix it.

 

[Rags17]

I agree there should be foundation dates but I think the Dominicans can have a larger range for their creation than the actual founding date. I think Hermetic orders should be split by region and have ones in europe start opening up in the 9-10th century.

Society start dates should be linked to on game events and map states. For example, the Hermetics might only be available if you have University in your capital, the Dominicans only available once the first Crusade has been called etc.

Just spit ballin' here.

 

[Boucicaut]

Dominicans start should be tied to major heresies/crusade against heresies.

The historical origin of the order was the albingensian crusade against the cathars(it actually was founded before the crusade itself, in an attempt to peacefully convert the heretics).

 

[AEWHistory]

I´s very much like all these things. But considering how low the early starts seems to be rated among influensive players, I can't see it happen.

The early start date is unpopular? I guess I never really checked, so I'm totally ignorant. I have to say that 769 is the only date I've played thus far, so I am biased, but I really like starting early and seeing where things go. Then again, I have a bad habit of quitting once I've reached a certain plateau, so starting this early isn't actually necessary.

Society start dates should be linked to on game events and map states. For example, the Hermetics might only be available if you have University in your capital, the Dominicans only available once the first Crusade has been called etc.

Just spit ballin' here.

I really like this idea that heresies should be linked to events. In fact, I'm a little jealous I didn't think of it myself as it is an excellent idea. The game would need to have the ability to trigger these heresies but should also have a small chance for something counter factual to occur in its place. At least that's my thinking...

Come to think of it, one of the things Paradox could really do with further DLC work would be expand the trigger/events and RPG aspect of CK2. Force the player into more of the tough decisions that real historical figures faced. For example, just as a monarchy gets more unwieldy with time, so does a religion. More people means more opinions, more diverse groups coming into the faith, etc. Suddenly keeping everyone on the same path for the creed becomes more difficult. That alone would cause heresies to pop up. Disease would also trigger more heresies (eg- the Flagellants at the end of the Black Plague are an example I just lectured on a week ago!).

Yea, you have a stellar idea here Rags!