Please, don't waste HOI4 potential !

[jackda]

After almost one year since the original release, here are IMO the major issues that still need to be fixed and features added in priority :

1/ Even very simplified, a real command chain must be introduced. The easiest way to do that is to make Field Marshall to be Theatre leaders only (selectable icon pics on the upper right side of the screen) Army commanders (instead of corps commanders which are irrelevant for this game OOB scaling) would remain unchanged.

2/ Make unit template building to be limited in some case, just add a command restriction could do the job (it is silly to see dozen of SS or other Elite units being built without any restriction at all for the only reason one's have the template). Ex : add the line user_buildable = false in the template.

3/ Reintroduce fuel consumption for all motorized units.

4/ Custom AI template unit naming must be fixed (no more "Armoured Battalion Type 9" etc as division name)

5/ More moddability for Ideologies, Combat events, Focus (possibility to add repetitive focus with a flip-flop system, like HOI3 Strategic Effects did).

I'm pretty sure that working on those issues will bring back a lot of lost players in the HOI4 community.

I don't mention the other issues that have been mentioned by devs as being on their priority list (decisions reintroduction, templates, AI, AI, AI, AI, and AI again...)

EDIT : Derm has made a more descriptive and detailed thread about OOB in the "suggestions" topic : https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/improving-command-oob-unit-names.1024043/

 

[Axe99]

I'd bet good money that the main block is just the time and resources it takes to make the game deeper. In their PDXCon talk, Podcat mentioned chain of command, logistics and bringing back something a bit like HoI3 decisions (I can't recall exactly what was said, but something like that). That said, while I think it's important to be patient, I think it's well worth mentioning thoughts as to what would make the game better .

On that angle, I'd add naval strategic gameplay (commerce warfare, subs attriting capital ships, invasion interception, convoy routing, the insanely cheap cost of building convoys), as well as tactical naval warfare (how the actual battles play out - the over-targeting of screens, convoy battles, air/fleet interactions) .

 

[Krafty]

I also wants HOI2s "transport capacity" back. No trucks, no supply...no supply, no org. As you get farther from supply sources, and core territory the more transport capacity you need.

That would stop these silly Japan invades US in 1936 kind of stuff, or Raj invading Germany, or Canada taking over Italy by itself. It would make taking the soviets for the Germans more of a slog.

 

[Meglok]

I also wants HOI2s "transport capacity" back. No trucks, no supply...no supply, no org. As you get farther from supply sources, and core territory the more transport capacity you need.

That would stop these silly Japan invades US in 1936 kind of stuff, or Raj invading Germany, or Canada taking over Italy by itself. It would make taking the soviets for the Germans more of a slog.

Speaking of transport capacity, bring back actual transports instead of generic convoys to transport units and launch invasions. Enough with the invasion spam.

 

[dermeister]

The easy way to fix Leaders/OOB in HOI4, by dermeister

1. field_marshal, army_general, corps_commander, division_commander, brigade_commander. Each with their own command cap (default 36, 12, 4, 2, 1). Only FM and AG can lead a theater.
2. Conserve current sets of field_marshal vs corps_commander (i.e. logistics vs commander) skills concurrently rather than "convert", because...
3. Each theater and orders_group has a deputy_leader ("Chief of Staff" slot in UI). CoS must be 2 ranks below. For division_commander and brigade_commander, auto generate random "Colonel" and "Lt. Colonel" name and portrait as a dummy commander in the slot (they don't get a CoS, it's just text). deputy_leader uses his "logistics" type skills, leader uses his "commander" skills.
4. Country specific autogenerated names for field commands and theater commands. No more Army 1. Put an automatic checkmark (default) in the UI for "Autogenerate command names". Change the name based on how many units are in it (use command caps as cue), and what country. Depending on that, I want to see "1er Corps d'Armée", "6. Armee", "1ya Front", "Europe Command", etc.
5. Default names for templates must be country based as well. It's 1. Strelkovaya Diviziya, not "1. Infantry Battalion Type 36".
6. Allow OOBs in /history/units to have theaters and orders_group.
7. If you just did the easy stuff (4-6), a lot of people would be happy. Does Paradox understand how many HOI4 players and modders are driven insane by seeing "Army 5" and "36. Infantry Battalion Type 15"? Many of us are borderline OCD about unit names. This is REALLY low-hanging fruit. Even 1-3 is the easy way of "fixing" the command system, while avoiding the complex but realistic command hierarchies of HOI3.

Edit: Elaborated here: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/improving-command-oob-unit-names.1024043/

 

[Dalwin]

I also wants HOI2s "transport capacity" back. No trucks, no supply...no supply, no org. As you get farther from supply sources, and core territory the more transport capacity you need.

That would stop these silly Japan invades US in 1936 kind of stuff, or Raj invading Germany, or Canada taking over Italy by itself. It would make taking the soviets for the Germans more of a slog.

I only agree with a few of the OP's points, but Krafty is dead on target.

 

[obren]

I agree with the OP and most of what is said above.

I would also like to see:
1. Meaningful attrition of resources by convoy raiding, so that production actually gets affected by strategic warfare. Podcat mentioned the problems of submarine warfare in his PDXcon presentation, but the problems with the naval system go deeper than just having a viable German naval strategy.

2. Reintroducing escorts in some fashion, as a defence against convoy raiding.

3. Adding a non-unique short name for each template, so it is easier to differentiate between different variants of a standard division without having the system restart the division numbering scheme for each variant, e.g. Panzer Division '36 and Panzer Division '40 each having Panzer-Division as a short name and being able to be produced in a single number sequence, ie 1. Panzer-Division, 2. Panzer-Division, etc.

 

[jackda]

OP edited

 

[mabus81]

I agree that this game has still enormous potential. Yet I would rather pin down its failure to fully convince on broken air warfare, broken sea warfare and disasterously stupid AI. Dont miss any of the things stated in OP. In the contrary, most of the brilliancy of HOI 4 comes from stuff which is gone from HOI1-3

 

[Praetori]

Dont miss any of the things stated in OP. In the contrary, most of the brilliancy of HOI 4 comes from stuff which is gone from HOI1-3

I somewhat agree to your statement but a lot of the mechanics "missing" feels like the devs decided to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Supply and fuel was wonky in HOI3 and players didn't understand it so they scrubbed the whole thing. Air system was complex and micro intensive so they scrubbed it. OOBs, brigades, attachments and individual leaders had OCD as a requirement so it was almost completely wiped in HOI4 and so on.

There were plenty of features in HOI2&3 that had depth but didn't work as well as it could've. Circumventing the difficulties from previous designs by completely ignoring them deducts some of the awesomeness that HOI2 and 3 actually had. What boggles the mind is that some of the stuff that's really annoying (like the basics of ground-combat with reinforcement percentages, retreats and ORG being the driving force) was improved but not really re-designed.
In HOI3 you would have divisions shatter and re-appear, something that, if developed, would work great with the equipment and manpower system we have right now but in HOI4 a divisions will simply vanish without so much as a notification.

 

[Gamer_1745]

I also wants HOI2s "transport capacity" back. No trucks, no supply...no supply, no org. As you get farther from supply sources, and core territory the more transport capacity you need.

Railroads are needed for a good supply system. Trucks & wagons should only matter after they leave the rails.

 

[Uriah]

I would agree with practically all of the above suggestions, but from reading many of the posts about HOI4 I fear little will come of it. Most of the people playing seem to complain about

1. It takes too long to play (I think they consider anything more than 30 mins is too much of their valuable time), or
2. Paradox keeps nerfing the bugs that allow them to win no matter how badly they play.

All the suggestions above will force players to think, and it appears that Paradox is trying to tap into the "I want to play, not think" demographic. Those that find symbols and counters frightening and cannot (or more likely will not) refer to anything that is not on the screen at the exact moment of decision. I suppose inevitable for a generation that thinks anything that requires reading more than 120 characters qualifies as a mental torture and rejects as too long video clips that go more than 10 secs.

I struggle to understand how a wargame can have no command structure and no real supply structure. In the bad old days it was accepted as computer power would not allow it, but now there is plenty of grunt, but it is used for cosmetic purposes. Back in the early 2000s I used to dream of the things that could be done when RAM was cheap and data storage and retrieval irrelevant. Sadly I got it wrong: the effort went not into gameplay but graphics.

To make it clear I am not being negative because I am a grumpy old bastard, though that is probably true, I love some aspects of HOI4. The focus trees (as a concept - a lot of improvements could be made), the production page (I admit I love the BI: Total War mod that makes me agonise over every factory), the land combat system which seems to me more realistic (even if the AI doesn't seem to understand it). There are many, many innovations in HOI4 that I like, but they are pretty much nullified by the absence of certain other things that would add realism and add to the immersive factor that has all but disappeared. I buy Paradox products all the time and no doubt will continue to do so, but that does not make me an uncritical "fanboi". (Is that word still in use?)

But at the moment I am playing Stellaris, and have not played HOI4 vanilla for months and months. It is just too boring. The approach to war is almost formulaic, and as I have said before, that is a game killer for me. HOI I, II and III were installed on my computer(s) and stayed there for years until the next game was released. I played them over and over, as different countries, different mods, different styles and after many many different upgrades. I hesitate to think how much of my life has been spent playing HOI variations. All of which I makes me grateful to Paradox. But that does not stop me from regretting some of the recent developments, even if I can see the commercial attraction of altering the target market and thus the mechanics of the game.

I suppose I must just accept that I am a dying breed and be grateful I still can play board games with manuals so thick they make me drool with anticipation. Games that make me stop and think, not just search for the fastest speed and let it rip. They may be all that is left in a few years. But the new games will be very pretty and you will be able to play a complete game on your phone on the way to work.

 

[Gamer_1745]

Speaking of transport capacity, bring back actual transports instead of generic convoys to transport units and launch invasions.

Yes, but they have said they are unable to get the AI to use transports (ships like in HoI 3) effectively. So which one is better, on map ships the AI has a problem using or off map that the AI can use?

Yes there are too many spam invasions!

 

[Praetori]

Railroads are needed for a good supply system. Trucks & wagons should only matter after they leave the rails.

The thing is that the grand-strategy scale is not really suitable for specifics such as that (and I can really see the AI struggling when it doesn't understand that Railroad X is paramount to its survival and thus need to be defended at all costs).
I however could see logistics capacity in terms of trucks/railcarts combined and assigned to theaters or supply-zones to actually make logistics happen (and it would pull in the reins on the global, attack-in-every-direction-and-continent-at-once capability) since you'd have to prioritize.

Re basing an army, air-wing or fleet across the globe and operate at 100% efficiency from day 1 might be easy on the AI but it really makes for some weird global warfare with Italians in China and Brazilian Dieppe invasions. Limiting the AI through scripts or AI-logic is not really a replacement from having mechanics that limit the possibilities for player and AI alike.

 

[Gamer_1745]

The thing is that the grand-strategy scale is not really suitable for specifics such as that (and I can really see the AI struggling when it doesn't understand that Railroad X is paramount to its survival and thus need to be defended at all costs).

Well Matrix Games seems to have done it with Strategic Command. And the HOI IV Devs are thinking about adding in railroads of some type from recent comments Here.

 

[Praetori]

Well Matrix Games seems to have done it with Strategic Command. And the HOI IV Devs are thinking about adding in railroads of some type from recent comments Here.

Yes I know and I could see it as some form of addition to state-infrastructure but it's a whole can of worms to get something out of it that infrastructure doesn't already do (or could be made to do) while also improving on the logistics system without confusing the AI. HOI4 is much more about decision-making and choosing between limited options. Assigning limited logistics resources like trucks and/or rail-carts, shipping tonnage etc to areas where you want to operate would be more suitable IMO.
The thing with railroads that ARE spot on though is that they're mainly strategic. Moving troops and equipment across the USSR, fielding the commonwealth troops in India and Burma, back-hauling the arsenal of Democracy from the powerhouses in the US to the seaboard etc.

 

[Praetori]

Yes, but they have said they are unable to get the AI to use transports (ships like in HoI 3) effectively. So which one is better, on map ships the AI has a problem using or off map that the AI can use?

Invasions could be handled with specific equipment required by divisions partaking (ie landing-craft) with huge combat/speed boosts if you have them and penalties if you don't.

 

[Chengar Qordath]

I somewhat agree to your statement but a lot of the mechanics "missing" feels like the devs decided to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Supply and fuel was wonky in HOI3 and players didn't understand it so they scrubbed the whole thing. Air system was complex and micro intensive so they scrubbed it. OOBs, brigades, attachments and individual leaders had OCD as a requirement so it was almost completely wiped in HOI4 and so on.

There were plenty of features in HOI2&3 that had depth but didn't work as well as it could've. Circumventing the difficulties from previous designs by completely ignoring them deducts some of the awesomeness that HOI2 and 3 actually had. What boggles the mind is that some of the stuff that's really annoying (like the basics of ground-combat with reinforcement percentages, retreats and ORG being the driving force) was improved but not really re-designed.
In HOI3 you would have divisions shatter and re-appear, something that, if developed, would work great with the equipment and manpower system we have right now but in HOI4 a divisions will simply vanish without so much as a notification.

Not to mention it leaves the game feeling like that lopped out the OOB and Supply systems that have been staples of the HoI series in order to have an OOB DLC and Supply DLC.

 

[jackda]

I would agree with practically all of the above suggestions, but from reading many of the posts about HOI4 I fear little will come of it. Most of the people playing seem to complain about

1. It takes too long to play (I think they consider anything more than 30 mins is too much of their valuable time), or
2. Paradox keeps nerfing the bugs that allow them to win no matter how badly they play.

All the suggestions above will force players to think, and it appears that Paradox is trying to tap into the "I want to play, not think" demographic. Those that find symbols and counters frightening and cannot (or more likely will not) refer to anything that is not on the screen at the exact moment of decision. I suppose inevitable for a generation that thinks anything that requires reading more than 120 characters qualifies as a mental torture and rejects as too long video clips that go more than 10 secs.

I struggle to understand how a wargame can have no command structure and no real supply structure. In the bad old days it was accepted as computer power would not allow it, but now there is plenty of grunt, but it is used for cosmetic purposes. Back in the early 2000s I used to dream of the things that could be done when RAM was cheap and data storage and retrieval irrelevant. Sadly I got it wrong: the effort went not into gameplay but graphics.

To make it clear I am not being negative because I am a grumpy old bastard, though that is probably true, I love some aspects of HOI4. The focus trees (as a concept - a lot of improvements could be made), the production page (I admit I love the BI: Total War mod that makes me agonise over every factory), the land combat system which seems to me more realistic (even if the AI doesn't seem to understand it). There are many, many innovations in HOI4 that I like, but they are pretty much nullified by the absence of certain other things that would add realism and add to the immersive factor that has all but disappeared. I buy Paradox products all the time and no doubt will continue to do so, but that does not make me an uncritical "fanboi". (Is that word still in use?)

But at the moment I am playing Stellaris, and have not played HOI4 vanilla for months and months. It is just too boring. The approach to war is almost formulaic, and as I have said before, that is a game killer for me. HOI I, II and III were installed on my computer(s) and stayed there for years until the next game was released. I played them over and over, as different countries, different mods, different styles and after many many different upgrades. I hesitate to think how much of my life has been spent playing HOI variations. All of which I makes me grateful to Paradox. But that does not stop me from regretting some of the recent developments, even if I can see the commercial attraction of altering the target market and thus the mechanics of the game.

I suppose I must just accept that I am a dying breed and be grateful I still can play board games with manuals so thick they make me drool with anticipation. Games that make me stop and think, not just search for the fastest speed and let it rip. They may be all that is left in a few years. But the new games will be very pretty and you will be able to play a complete game on your phone on the way to work.

This post deserves to be stickied in main forum ! I wish I could have written it myself, unfortunately my English is too poor. So, thank you. I feel exactly the same, and that is exactly what we intend to do with August Storm, unfortunately we still lack some tools (hard coded, or missing features) to completely achieve our wargaming approach : plausibility, realism, immersion. It is one of the main reason of this thread.

 

[Praetori]

Not to mention it leaves the game feeling like that lopped out the OOB and Supply systems that have been staples of the HoI series in order to have an OOB DLC and Supply DLC.

Pretty sure that those wouldn't tie well into a DLC as it's game-mechanic changing stuff (and thus have to be the same for players and AI alike).