Please don't tune down Condi renting for VH in 1.19

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TheMeInTeam

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I could also just be bitter about how this game keeps getting easier and easier. Since I perceive this as making a difficulty designed to be more challenging getting tuned down to be easier it's a reason why I want to defend keeping it in place.

I feel you there, but short of truce or some other significant barrier in most cases the AI should just be declaring on you, because these are the cases where you'd declare on the AI if the situation were reversed, or do something else entirely. That adds challenge too.

1) screwing up a nation so they won't accept a call to arms from a country I intend on attacking (capital sieging is absolutely brutal for CTA acceptance)

That's certainly reasonable, if somewhat uncommon (you'd need a target you don't want to fight that won't blast a 20 stack on its capital, that would *otherwise* win or at least still join despite losing). This is an uncommon scenario.
 

SupSha

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It broke so many regions. Declaring war on anyone in Mesoamerica meant fighting anywhere between 34,000 to 40,000 troops with your 9,000. I'm all for it coming back with some kind of limit though, such as maybe unlocking with tech (so smaller nations have a chance to expand before it comes into play)
 

alexti

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Playing the game is an artificial reason o_O?

Maybe the AI could do more wars if it doesn't hand its units to other nations for free? Surely you're not suggesting that this case of perma-war is just players role playing and that it's actually optimal to rent condotierri :p?
It's hard to come up with a sensible reason why renting out condottieri during the war is not allowed - so I call it artificial. It's almost certain that the optimal strategy would be to fight wars yourself and rent out condottieri at the same time. But it is not allowed :(
 

Chaingun

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Little ventured, far less gained.

How often do you rent out condotierri for free right now, and in what circumstances do you do so? This is an important question and I'm not going to let it go so easily :).

If you are not willing to rent out condotierri for free, presumably you have better alternative uses for those units, and petitioning for the AI to do something you know is suboptimal intentionally is probably not the best course.



Playing the game is an artificial reason o_O?

Maybe the AI could do more wars if it doesn't hand its units to other nations for free? Surely you're not suggesting that this case of perma-war is just players role playing and that it's actually optimal to rent condotierri :p?

On a high level it's about additional dynamics to a rather static game situation. From the individual AI country's perspective it's the ability to do something about a potential future threat with less risk than outright war. It's also easier for the AI programmer to be flexible and to "bend the rules" regarding what countries to rent out condottieri to than with war declarations because 1) there are less restrictions or they can be easier ignored (especially soft ones displayed in the user interface such as AI attitude), 2) it's simply not as drastic, especially as a potential F-up (risk is mostly limited to troops put in there and then), softening impact of the chicken-and-egg problem on declaring on stronger expanding countries that aren't (yet) fighting sufficiently strong enemies even if they are a threat to everyone around.

IMO, the main problem is where it is left with insufficient troops for defending after renting, but that's difficult in general (another example: deciding how built up to force limit AI should be peace time). I'd argue cost/reward ratio isn't a problem (even with free renting). AI could use those troops to A) expand for itself to grow stronger relative to the threat, or B) against the threat directly, with condottieri belonging in category B. B is potentially a more damaging option, but which one is actually better is difficult to judge since it above all depends on the actions of third party countries. It's certainly the case that in terms of AI draining each others' resources in AIvsAI wars, outright wars are actually more damaging than renting condottieri short term to their ability to resist the human player, even though wars may produce blobbed up AI nations (but blobbing we were trying to slow down for other reasons).

Reasoning about what the AI should do or not based on what a human does is somewhat limited in the sense AI don't talk to each other, at all. Not solely because it's more complicated to implement, but also because coordinated attacks can feel like "AI cheating". Thus, coordinating attacks in practice is something the AI is way worse at than a human, leading to the (already described above) issue of strong human (and ultra strong AI) countries never being attacked mid-late game, because nobody dares to throw the first few stones. Free Condottieri is a small measure against that, if not nearly sufficient, since condottieri troop sizes tend to be outscaled.

Not saying the implementation was perfect btw, just outlining the thinking and objectives behind the up-to-1.18 behavior. I think in terms of difficulty, it will be around +/- zero due to the number of shoddy rent outs in addition to the useful ones, but dynamics/unpredictability = fun IMHO (but then, not everyone agrees apparently :p).
 
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alexti

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Well, there's primarily two reasons for player condotierri use (in my opinion):

1) screwing up a nation so they won't accept a call to arms from a country I intend on attacking (capital sieging is absolutely brutal for CTA acceptance)
2) making a quick buck (where you either rent to countries you think are going to peace out quickly, or you roleplay the AI and siege some useful fort in the middle of nowhere while being paid handsomely for it)
3) Renting out troops to your future vassal and helping him to win a war thus acquiring more territory that is soon to become yours. At no AE or DIP cost to you and unlike ally-feeding not even requiring a diplo-slot.
 

TheMeInTeam

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On a high level it's about additional dynamics to a rather static game situation. From the individual AI country's perspective it's the ability to do something about a potential future threat with less risk than outright war. It's also easier for the AI programmer to be flexible and to "bend the rules" regarding what countries to rent out condottieri to than with war declarations because 1) there are less restrictions or they can be easier ignored (especially soft ones displayed in the user interface such as AI attitude), 2) it's simply not as drastic, especially as a potential F-up (risk is mostly limited to troops put in there and then), softening impact of the chicken-and-egg problem on declaring on stronger expanding countries that aren't (yet) fighting sufficiently strong enemies even if they are a threat to everyone around.

IMO, the main problem is where it is left with insufficient troops for defending after renting, but that's difficult in general (another example: deciding how built up to force limit AI should be peace time). I'd argue cost/reward ratio isn't a problem (even with free renting). AI could use those troops to A) expand for itself to grow stronger relative to the threat, or B) against the threat directly, with condottieri belonging in category B. B is potentially a more damaging option, but which one is actually better is difficult to judge since it above all depends on the actions of third party countries. It's certainly the case that in terms of AI draining each others' resources in AIvsAI wars, outright wars are actually more damaging than renting condottieri short term to their ability to resist the human player, even though wars may produce blobbed up AI nations (but blobbing we were trying to slow down for other reasons).

Reasoning about what the AI should do or not based on what a human does is somewhat limited in the sense AI don't talk to each other, at all. Not solely because it's more complicated to implement, but also because coordinated attacks can feel like "AI cheating". Thus, coordinating attacks in practice is something the AI is way worse at than a human, leading to the (already described above) issue of strong human (and ultra strong AI) countries never being attacked mid-late game, because nobody dares to throw the first few stones. Free Condottieri is a small measure against that, if not nearly sufficient, since condottieri troop sizes tend to be outscaled.

Not saying the implementation was perfect btw, just outlining the thinking and objectives behind the up-to-1.18 behavior. I think in terms of difficulty, it will be around +/- zero due to the number of shoddy rent outs in addition to the useful ones, but dynamics/unpredictability = fun IMHO (but then, not everyone agrees apparently :p).

This was pretty helpful and I had to reflect on it a bit before answering. It comes down to how often category B is better-served by direct DoW or alternatives live intervene/enforce peace. Trying to slow down blobbing is quite the shackles to work with too, since that's still the most efficient option to get stronger. I can see how more conservative behavior might be preferred.

This thread has a few elite players who have mastered the game's execution more than I, and it seems they've pared down on the unpredictability element and like the planning involved. Perhaps this is a mechanic better-expanded than abandoned, so that it has more incentive. I'd also like to see a similar system used against those "warn everyone" type nations.
 

bbqftw

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Come to think of it the biggest condotierri throws are already done by countries in really bad position. E.g. Byzantium would always rent out its stack against the Ottomans whenever they DOW'd someone. Of course it looks pretty stupid because Ottomans is going to bulldoze Candar with Byzantium's help or not, but on the other hand, byzantium is practically 100% doomed in AI hands anyways.
 

atwix

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picture says more then a thousand words.

Some will love this, others will hate this..

A5BY1ov.jpg


The only REAL 'Spanish' resistance came from condottieri.

Spain had hired a nice 39k (!) stack from Venice, and they strolled into Iberia!

These huge condottieri stacks on very hard are loved by some, and hated by some.

There is talk among the devs to nerf condotttieri a lot for the harder difficulty settings but I hope they reconsider.

They add spice to the game.
 

Yugoslavs

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Very hard is suppose to be harder then normal and condottieri renting was huge part of that experience. Playing on very hard now is half as difficult as it was before. Especially regarding Austria that could hire half HRE armies when Ottos attack Genoa.

It was fun while it lasted. In 1.19 it was not reduced, it is practically non existent. I have played 4 games on very hard (Kaffa, Mutapa, Georgia and Qara Qoyonlu) in 1.19 and i have seen one condottieri renting. :(
 

atwix

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It was fun while it lasted. In 1.19 it was not reduced, it is practically non existent. I have played 4 games on very hard (Kaffa, Mutapa, Georgia and Qara Qoyonlu) in 1.19 and i have seen one condottieri renting. :(

classical case of DLC features being nerfed after the DLC sale figures are met.

Now the mare nostrum DLC features are nerfed.

Cynical thought, but it has proven to be true, times and again, during the patch history of this game..
 

Yugoslavs

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I remember that in one of dev diaries before release of Mare Nostrum they have said that they moved massive condottieri renting to higher difficulties, because on normal every war was like total war.

Maybe they should have capped size of army that AI can rent, like 20 or 25 units instead of making entire feature useless.

I remember playing as Ragusa and i was fighting Ottomans and here comes offer from Poland renting me 45K men.

1.18 had also some very interesting features that i don't see at all in 1.19, like AI willingness to enforce peace or intervene in great power wars.
 

puddingkip

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I remember that in one of dev diaries before release of Mare Nostrum they have said that they moved massive condottieri renting to higher difficulties, because on normal every war was like total war.

Maybe they should have capped size of army that AI can rent, like 20 or 25 units instead of making entire feature useless.

I remember playing as Ragusa and i was fighting Ottomans and here comes offer from Poland renting me 45K men.

1.18 had also some very interesting features that i don't see at all in 1.19, like AI willingness to enforce peace or intervene in great power wars.
There is actually supposed to be a limit of 20 modified by your available mercs limit. AI just ignored that limit in 1.18 (and earlier patches as well)
 
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MiniaAr

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Most Hard/Very Hard players were ok with the fix on overblown condotierri stacks (40k was not unusual).

But many are really disappointed with the AI not offering them anymore, and I still wonder what part of the community really argued for this? :(

The point when Mare Nostrum was released was indeed that condotierri from AI would be a rare occurence in normal difficulty but that they would really come into play in Hard/Very Hard difficulties.

And condotierri really are the only shining feature for this DLC. Now it seems they removed quite a lot of it.
 
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Chaingun

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You'll probably have to petition @DDRJake seeing as design team took over the issue according to @Gnivom. However, they probably made up their mind already.

If it isn't already so, an alternative idea is to keep old behavior on defines to allow AI mods to use it.
 
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Frogbait

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You'll probably have to petition @DDRJake seeing as design team took over the issue according to @Gnivom. However, they probably made up their mind already.

If it isn't already so, an alternative idea is to keep old behavior on defines to allow AI mods to use it.
The defines case is indeed what they've gone with. And yeah, Jake was complaining a lot about VH condi renting on stream and with his role I assumed that was the biggest reason for this otherwise out of no where change.

Interesting to see how it is from our perspective at this point Chain? :p

Thanks again for all of your input and unique insights, adds a great new angle. Still miss you from the dev team :(
 

alexti

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Has anyone tried 1.19 patch yet? - What effect do those changes have on AI? I don't have particularly high hopes on them making VH more challenging, but maybe due to some non-trivial interaction with AI logic lack of condottieries actually helps AI?
 

bbqftw

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Just sharing another game in VH 1.18.

Naturally since I just took a few provinces, practically everyone in Europe except my allies is at coalition-range AE against me. However with my position, they aren't comfortable actually coalitioning me (my allies fielding something close to a million troops combined probably contributes to this). So what do they do? Funnel loads of condotierri in a futile attempt to help whoever my next victims are. This is pretty late in the war where most of the condotierri stacks have been pulverized into oblivion but basically the remaining free states in Europe that don't have truces can be expected to make contributions against me.

dB0CK8L.png


I also like the bug where the conditierri rents exceed rent limits - I only wish that I could do the same! I feel like 20k (or 30k with quant+administrative) really limits what you can do though I suppose there's some multiplayer considerations here.

We are looking at Ottomans renting me 70k, Provence renting 60k each from Spain + Austria, Provence renting 40k against me, Brandenburg renting me a stack that clutched a decisive 200k vs 200k battle against spain. Practically <10% of the wars I've fought in Europe this campaign have been easy wars, and the scale of the wars are pretty immense. And that is how it should be, yeah?
 
Last edited:

Florryworry__

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Yeah those situations made v.h. condotierri really cool and interesting. It also made the game a bit harder.
However what I perceived as a big problem was the fact that they almost instantly re-rent the condotierri after you stack-wiped them.
So for example hungary would rent 20k against me. I wiped it in pest and as I leave his country he rents out a second stack a month later in vidin; consequently I march over there and wipe it and BAM a new merc stack was hired in Pest and they rent out that.
I really did like the condotierri in 1.18 but this condo spam didn't make it harder it just made it really annoying so as far as that's concerned I think i'm happier with the current state of things.
IF there was a 1-2 year cooldown on renting out condotierri's against or for the same country then I'd be delighted to see 1.18 condi's back but for now the extra condi's aren't worth a game of whack-a-mole imo.
 

atwix

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We are looking at Ottomans renting me 70k, Provence renting 60k each from Spain + Austria, Provence renting 40k against me, Brandenburg renting me a stack that clutched a decisive 200k vs 200k battle against spain. Practically <10% of the wars I've fought in Europe this campaign have been easy wars, and the scale of the wars are pretty immense. And that is how it should be, yeah?

yes.

However what I perceived as a big problem was the fact that they almost instantly re-rent the condotierri after you stack-wiped them.
So for example hungary would rent 20k against me. I wiped it in pest and as I leave his country he rents out a second stack a month later in vidin; consequently I march over there and wipe it and BAM a new merc stack was hired in Pest and they rent out that.
I really did like the condotierri in 1.18 but this condo spam didn't make it harder it just made it really annoying so as far as that's concerned I think i'm happier with the current state of things.

I usually never engage condottieri, as they move around VERY defensively. The condottieri aren't very bold, and flee easily.

I see condottieri more as merc ctacks that raid your supply lines so to speak. If they atack, repel them. If they siege something, let them do so until they reach positive siege chance.

But as you say, I do THAT because I know new stacks will be rented out if I actively hunt/destroy existing condotteiri stacks.

All in all, I'd love to see the condottieri stay exactly same behaviour in 1.19.

They need to fix the 'size' of the condottieri stacks on normal, but in my opinion, condottieri stacks of 40k or even 70k on very hard are 'at home' there. It should become another very hard bonus for AI.

I never cursed at it.

Why? because very hard nations tend to be filthy RICH. putting limits on condottieri will mean they can't use ALL their income on trying to repel player, which feels bad.

For example, Venice with 400 income? yeah of COURSE they will hire 50k stack here and there to defend their nation, as they have 'little' army themselves usually. Same in Holy Roman Empire. I actually LIKE that HRE is lot harder to disband on very hard, due to condottieri.

Why WOULDN'T the HRE lend out 50k stacks to one another if an outsider attacks the HRE? I mean, it is what a federation would do. It is what the NAVO would do :mad:

They wouldn't like someone arbitrary scaling down the 'rented' army because it annoys some people...

So yeah... this entire thing annoys me greatly.

TL; DR: Leave us very hard players with our very hard difficulty and huge condottieri stacks, and don't work in the kitchen if you can't stand the heat.

But, that is my opinion. Feel free to disagree ;)
 

Florryworry__

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yes.



I usually never engage condottieri, as they move around VERY defensively. The condottieri aren't very bold, and flee easily.

I see condottieri more as merc ctacks that raid your supply lines so to speak. If they atack, repel them. If they siege something, let them do so until they reach positive siege chance.

But as you say, I do THAT because I know new stacks will be rented out if I actively hunt/destroy existing condotteiri stacks.

All in all, I'd love to see the condottieri stay exactly same behaviour in 1.19.

They need to fix the 'size' of the condottieri stacks on normal, but in my opinion, condottieri stacks of 40k or even 70k on very hard are 'at home' there. It should become another very hard bonus for AI.

I never cursed at it.

Why? because very hard nations tend to be filthy RICH. putting limits on condottieri will mean they can't use ALL their income on trying to repel player, which feels bad.

For example, Venice with 400 income? yeah of COURSE they will hire 50k stack here and there to defend their nation, as they have 'little' army themselves usually. Same in Holy Roman Empire. I actually LIKE that HRE is lot harder to disband on very hard, due to condottieri.

Why WOULDN'T the HRE lend out 50k stacks to one another if an outsider attacks the HRE? I mean, it is what a federation would do. It is what the NAVO would do :mad:

They wouldn't like someone arbitrary scaling down the 'rented' army because it annoys some people...

So yeah... this entire thing annoys me greatly.

TL; DR: Leave us very hard players with our very hard difficulty and huge condottieri stacks, and don't work in the kitchen if you can't stand the heat.

But, that is my opinion. Feel free to disagree ;)

certainly the sizelimit doesnt need to be there.
Perhaps give them an additional 50% extra available mercs?
That would however take away from the whole 'ausblutung' feels we get when we finally bleed that 1 giant AI dry. I like those feels :>
However I do think it would be both for the AI's sake and my sanity be good if there was a cooldown after a wipe.
I remember literally destroying the entire hungarian army twice over cuz they insta hired out new ones.
That can't be a good thing :p i mean they couldve gotten dowed right then and there; imagine if they were an opm with no forts!
But yeah I think on everything else we are in accord ;)