Please don't tune down Condi renting for VH in 1.19

[Frogbait]

- The AI will no longer be more enthusiastic about renting out Condottieri on Harder difficulties. This can be re-enabled in defines.

I've been meaning to make this post for a bit, but this change is extremely disheartening to see in the patch notes. VH already is a small subset of players and this removes a feature that most VH players love for the added difficulty.

This game has going to an easier difficulty route for awhile now which is fine and I understand the rationale behind it. However you guys gave those of us who want the game to be more challenging a bone with adding in VH and this has really made the game a lot more fun for the sheer challenge that VH presents. Insane Condi renting of the early game in VH makes the early game much more challenging and contains the snowballing by a large margin. There are some edge cases where this does make it a bit easier to expand into a small nation than it would have been before, but that really dies out rather quickly in VH. My assumption for this change is that it puts more work on Gnivom to keep the AI updated with this or it's because it's counterproductive to the AI in some very edge cases that imo does not justify removing this feature as a whole.

VH has been a huge breathe of fresh air. Please don't lessen the difficulty.

 

[atwix]

if you can't handle very hard due to condottieri, then you shouldn't play very hard.

If you don't like condottieri even on normal mode, then don't buy Mare Nostrum, or disable the DLC if you did..

That is my two cents.

Changing this for for the few that play very hard ruins it for the few that play very hard..

The Condottieri were bugged is all.

And that got fixed right?

Very hard is indeed keeping it interesting for me at the moment.

So please don't make it easier by limiting AI to rent other nation narmies.

Attacking a nation with huge treasury? Expect condottieri.

Attacking a nation your rival likes? Expect condottieri.

And so on..

 

[alexti]

I have only started to play with condottieri (MN) in 1.18 and my observation is that VH games in 1.18 with condottieri became noticeably easier than they were in 1.17 without MN. I suspect there are several related factors here.

In 1.17 on VH AI was building bigger armies and it was using them more aggressively trying to fight war of attrition. In 1.18 VH AI builds smaller armies and is rather cautious about engaging in the battles. Condottieri come in a smaller stacks and they don't coordinate very well, so human player can often drive enemy back without fighting or destroy enemy stacks in a favourable engagements. In addition, I have noticed that AI has large sums of money that it doesn't use to try to win the war. For example, I defeat Teutonic Order (and their numerous forts mean that I can't carpet siege their territory) and they have over 2000 in treasury - why didn't they use them to hire mercenaries?

My guess is that AI may think that since accounting for condottieri they have sufficiently large force so they don't hire mercenaries. But due to lack of coordination that force is much weaker than numbers would indicate. Another possibility is that AI saves money preparing to embrace the institutions, but in this case it probably values it too high given the circumstances.

Saying that I like that wars in 1.18 became more intelligent. Unfortunately, this apparently put AI at disadvantage, so overall difficulty has been reduced. I fear that this isn't an easy problem to solve. Given how everything is related to each other I wonder if condottieri reduction may actually encourage AI to build bigger armies and make the game more challenging?

 

[bbqftw]

I have only started to play with condottieri (MN) in 1.18 and my observation is that VH games in 1.18 with condottieri became noticeably easier than they were in 1.17 without MN. I suspect there are several related factors here.

In 1.17 on VH AI was building bigger armies and it was using them more aggressively trying to fight war of attrition. In 1.18 VH AI builds smaller armies and is rather cautious about engaging in the battles. Condottieri come in a smaller stacks and they don't coordinate very well, so human player can often drive enemy back without fighting or destroy enemy stacks in a favourable engagements. In addition, I have noticed that AI has large sums of money that it doesn't use to try to win the war. For example, I defeat Teutonic Order (and their numerous forts mean that I can't carpet siege their territory) and they have over 2000 in treasury - why didn't they use them to hire mercenaries?

My guess is that AI may think that since accounting for condottieri they have sufficiently large force so they don't hire mercenaries. But due to lack of coordination that force is much weaker than numbers would indicate. Another possibility is that AI saves money preparing to embrace the institutions, but in this case it probably values it too high given the circumstances.

Saying that I like that wars in 1.18 became more intelligent. Unfortunately, this apparently put AI at disadvantage, so overall difficulty has been reduced. I fear that this isn't an easy problem to solve. Given how everything is related to each other I wonder if condottieri reduction may actually encourage AI to build bigger armies and make the game more challenging?

it depends, I think - since threatened nations + outraged nations will throw condotierri at you at pretty much any opportunity, attitude of nations involved does matter a lot. In a place like Europe this can be pretty punishing (also the emperor will just get tons of rents by default). But if you play a measured diplomatic game then you'll see much more parity in condotierri rents (you're as likely to get offers as your opponents).

I think the bigger change with 1.18 is the AI is no longer willing to bust its force limits to win a war - this was common behavior on other patches but the AI no longer appears to do this, even on VH.

 

[alexti]

I think the bigger change with 1.18 is the AI is no longer willing to bust its force limits to win a war - this was common behavior on other patches but the AI no longer appears to do this, even on VH.

I am curious if it counts condottieri in and thus thinks that it already has enough troops.

 

[Chaingun]

You should probably tag @Gnivom since he's the one that decides this stuff now.

Basically, the reason I made Condottieri as they were was for the AI to be able to fight threatening nations more liberally than wars (and rivals) allow. Reverting it is going to take game a notch back to static "AI loses without trying to stop snowballing" mode; there are certainly legit counter arguments however in terms of predictability.

 

[bbqftw]

I am curious if it counts condottieri in and thus thinks that it already has enough troops.

Don't think so, AI is fairly unwilling to go over FL in 1.18 unless in the immediate aftermath of you taking a ton of land off them (so it reduces their FL). This wasn't normally the case if I recall correctly.

FL restriction happens with countries that dont typically get condotierri rents (such as Ottomans) as well

 

[Chaingun]

I think Gnivom played around with budgeting in 1.18 and the FL behavior is a result of it. AI builds up to 75% nominally and is fairly reluctant to fill up to 100% even. IMO this could be improved in some cases, but overall the saved money does have its uses. Human is going to counter it either way by either trying to out-build the AI militarily, or outgrow it by trying to get away with a smaller army.

 

[cordialgerm]

I really enjoy the Condies on VH. It gives the AI more options to contain your early blobbing, and the more challenge the better!

 

[highsis]

I just love it when casuals complain a feature is too difficult when they play on a hard or very hard difficulty. lol

 

[Ratanka]

i dont get why u care when u can enable it with a click

 

[J Farrell]

Re-enable it. Problem solved. Why is this complaint even a thing?

 

[atwix]

I suppose it is a classical case of DLC features being nerfed a patch or few patches after release.

After sales figures are met.

I know that is VERY cynical to say, but it holds a lot of truth when you look at Paradox' history.

I assumed they would 'fix' the condo stacks being too big due to mercenary pool limit bonuses, and I would say same once more, if they change condottieri any further.

I bought mare nostrum for the condottieri difficulty, nothing else.

But I can understand it annoys people, just as Zoc of forts annoys people.

But there is big difference between an added mechanic that is annoying to to it being bugged, or a mechanic that has rules that are so hopelessly complex, that noone understands them.

Condottieri are the former, ZoC of forts are the latter in 1.18.

I hope they present acceptable fix to both.

 

[Frogbait]

You should probably tag @Gnivom since he's the one that decides this stuff now.

Basically, the reason I made Condottieri as they were was for the AI to be able to fight threatening nations more liberally than wars (and rivals) allow. Reverting it is going to take game a notch back to static "AI loses without trying to stop snowballing" mode; there are certainly legit counter arguments however in terms of predictability.

Thanks for the insight Chain

i dont get why u care when u can enable it with a click

Editing Defines =/= re-enabling it with a click.

Re-enable it. Problem solved. Why is this complaint even a thing?

Checksum is a thing.

@alexti
Per bbq - do keep in mind 1.18 behavior changed considerably from 1.17. 1.18 AI had some radical changes done to it that did have some unintended consequences. Condi is a double edged sword from my experiences. If can either make the AI easier via situations like you mentioned or by them renting their entire army out and once it's destroyed you get essentially a free nation to declare war and eat. The latter is subject to minors, but it does involve you needing to take their army out regardless. Personally I think liberal condi renting does make the game harder vs. how condi renting works in normal. Edge cases it can make snowballing easier I do agree. As said above, comparing 1.17 to 1.18 condi is a bit unfair considering how much the AI changed from 1.17 to 1.18 due to @Chaingun and @Gnivom putting in a lot of time and effort into the AI to make it better overall. It's still interesting to see the AI carpet sieging for the first time in the two years I've been playing that I can recall

 

[MiniaAr]

I agree with most here. Enabling it in defines is a lot more different than giving it as an option before the start of a game (like "no limit for idea group" will be in 1.19).

I wasn't unded the impression that a lot of people were complaining about the AI giving condotierri more in VH on principle. What people complained about was that the condotierri given were much higher than the expected 20K-ish, with some 40K full stacks roaming around.

This was a bug requiring fixing of course, but it didn't require removing the AI increased incentive to condotierri giving at higher difficulty.

 

[Camtheman]

I dont really see how Condo makes anything any more difficult, in fact it usually makes it easier after becoming even medium small (like 7-10 provinces)

Stackwipe condotieri (of sufficiently small size to where it's the nations entire army or most of it)

Declare on nation that just condo'd you because they have no army.

Other nations will bandwagon.

GG.

On VH I don't think they should nerf it though, it's there to make people feel special that they're playing VH anyway, why not make it more difficult

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I partially agree. What I'd be interested to see is how much renting out condotierri hurts the AI.

Think of it this way: how frequently do you, as the player, rent out condotierri, and when you do so what is the reason? Compare that to AI frequency and the utility it gets when it does it.

Rather than wanting more condotierri, if it's challenge you want you might instead prefer alternative behaviors from the AI on VH that improve its position more than renting condotierri.

You could instead make every AI no-CB the player inside a month on VH and refuse to ally the player. You'd lose every time. That's "hard", but it's not optimal behavior for most TAGs on the map if they're trying to each maximize own position by 1821. Most general arguments for condotierri risk making the AI do something that harms it compared to alternative options.

In most cases it should probably be using those troops to expand. Situations where you can immediately declare on a condotierri nation you wiped are an excellent example. If they're going to risk their entire army, they should be looking to pull clay for themselves and to do it on another 100% war score potential.

But I can understand it annoys people, just as Zoc of forts annoys people.

I don't think this is a fair comparison. Aside from the bug introduced where AI can break the size rules, condotierri hasn't been in a broken-by-design beta state for > year :/. You don't lose your army to nothing like the move lock = fort bug, and in contrast to forts the rules governing condotierri are pretty clear. Whether or not one likes the concept, there are *objective* problems with forts as implemented. That isn't true for condotierri.

 

[Gnivom]

@Chaingun made a good explaination about their new budgeting and army levels compared to forcelimit. As for condottieri on VH, it was not my decision but rather a genuine design decision, based of what I understand on wars being too hard and (especially) unpredictable.

 

[bbqftw]

It is not that unpredictable, though:

1) strongly expect every country threatened, rival, or outraged to throw their entire army at you for free
2) somewhat expect every country friendly to primary and secondary participants to offer condotierri for profit
3) expect countries with large money excess to hire massive amounts of condotierri stacks
4) expect the emperor to hire tons of condotierri regardless of diplomatic situation

 

[BarrosRodrigues]

(Unlike the fort cheat) I for one think it is silly to see "regular" armies being rented out as condotieri (in History they were mercenaries) but being rented out for 0 ducats makes it even worse since that is plain fantasy and EU IV is already full of fantasy. With that said I would not care one bit if the AI could rent the entire world´s armies as long as it pays for them (...)
If you want to make the AI more competitive at higher difficulty levels give it even higher force limit, manpower, more money, etc. etc. since IMHO that is the lesser of two evils wrt plausibility.