Please, don't shoot the messenger - China confirmed?

[klopkr]

Uhhh...what? Don't try to change what this is about. This entire argument was started because I said that the game couldn't represent what happened with the Il-Khanate. And it can't. Even when you go through all the loopholes, the Il-Khanate will just fight for the Holy Land with the Christians instead of invading and conquering other areas at the same time.

You were arguing with some other guy though. I just wanted to tell you guys about some interesting loopholes in Jihads and alliances.

 

[HREmperor]

You were arguing with some other guy though. I just wanted to tell you guys about some interesting loopholes in Jihads and alliances.

Alright. You're right that you can get people of other religions involved but it wouldn't pan out any way like how it did with the Il-Khanate.

 

[BFKelleher]

Again we're talking about what can and can't be represented in CK2. Not what could be represented if the Devs added x, y and z which they've AFAIK they've shown no interest in adding.

If we're already talking about adding China, how much of a leap is it to talk about adding a proper alliance system? In the game as it stands right now, getting the Ilkhanate involved in a crusade would require railroading by events in a similar way to the rebellious emir independence revolt for Charlemagne. So it is possible for this to happen in the game as it stands right now, but like once.

Other than that, you still have the fact that a Mongol empire that stretches across Eurasia with Chinese, European, and Middle Eastern vassals, will by definition result in Chinese characters having an effect in Europe that is 1000x more visible than a butterfly effect. Horse Lords makes an empire of this size possible, and if China were added, then there'd be a guaranteed 100% chance of Chinese interaction with Europe unless somehow Chinese AI manages not to be conquered at all every game.

 

[sreckom92]

Is this the Argument Clinic?

 

[DesNibelungen]

Is this the Argument Clinic?

No, it isn't.

 

[BFKelleher]

I would like to have an argument.

 

[klopkr]

Is this the Argument Clinic?

 

[Zolotaya]

Bold and underlined = my responses.

When 2.4 comes out, run 2 instances of CK2 at speed 5. That's what adding China would be like. Doubling the characters at the start of the game, and increasing the total numbers of characters by many, many times by late game(because CK2's population already grows exponentially).

You are factually wrong in both assertions here. Doomdark is one of the two Paradoxian employees to take over the failed Russian project and was co-creator of CK1 and head lead of CK2.

The engine used in CK2 is not gimped by numbers of characters as you seem to believe it is.

My singular thought on a common anti-China dlc argument:

• Critiques claim that ingame China will have no affect on any realm outside of China proper. Even if this proves to be true, this failing would not be a result of adding China but is symptomatic of other issues and these issues can be addressed in a non-railroaded manner that promotes historical trends within the current sandbox environment.

 

[sreckom92]

No, it isn't.

You are right. It does seem more of a circus here.

 

[Guardian54]

There you go again. You asked for an example. I gave it. The Yuan may have been Mongols, but they WERE a Chinese dynasty. Newsflash! The Tang and Qing were also 'Barbarian' dynasties founded by someone from Central Asia. They were still China. the Yuan is no different. Events IN China. And I said it CAN be modeled, hell, it could be now if China was on the map. It's a civil war that drew troops away during a different war. That happens all the time! X ally didn't honor the alliance because they were embroiled in something more important to them.

Every time someone addresses your 'history' points you turn around and claim the game can't do it (which is ridiculous, since a game can be programmed to). And at other times you bring up history. Someone contradicts you so you go back and claim the game can't. Rinse, repeat.

He does not understand that the Indians tying up 50,000 Abbasid troops while you carve into them from the west is actually significant to gameplay. Similarly he cannot understand that a nation in two wars will focus one over the other and so doesn't get how the situation you talked about would work.

Even WWII USA had "Germany First"... but I guess he failed history as well as failing every logic-based class except political/philosophy (the art of bullshitting, he quotes many terms from it too)

Alright. The game can't do it without railroading. The stuff you mentioned with a non-Cathoilc Il-Khanate joining a Crusade can't happen in game. The civil war stuff would need either railroaded events or a huge overhaul of game mechanics to happen. The Hun example another guy gave can't really happen either unless we give unlanded adventures huge mega-stacks.

And your little cycle thing of me saying the history doesn't matter and then asking for history isn't true. Could you please stop making stuff up? Thanks.

..."Give Unlanded adventurers huge mega-stacks"... WHAT ARE THE MONGOL INVASIONS RIGHT NOW IN CK2? Unlanded, yep, adventurers, yeah, functionally so, with mega-stacks... yep.

No it wouldn't. Civil wars happen ALL THE TIME in the game. Civil War happens, alliance not honored. BOOM! It's represented. (As for Adventurers, I'm worried about just that... the magical mega stacks with armies larger than the areas that spawned them... But that's a digression)


"China didn't affect the Crusades or the Crusader Kings. You don't need China to have the Silk Road, which is the only thing got to do with China that affected Europe. They already added Mongolia which did affect Europe."

That is your full post. Arguing about China not being needed because "it's the only thing to do with China that affected Europe." I rebutted it to point out that yes, China and events there did have an effect on the Crusades and the Crusader Kings (You did not at all say THE GAME in that statement. You said the nouns). There is no misquoting here. THAT was what I responded to.

Your response to me, quoted in entirety, then is "And it didn't. The Mongols from Mongolia affected them in a way that can't be modelled in the game. And we're talking about a DLC for CK2 here. "

I made nothing up. That is exactly what was said, you can go back to your OP and see it, I didn't even change spelling (or if I did, it was a typo). And shows you now arguing game stuff as a response to history.

I was always only talking about the actual history, the game CAN be twisted to represent things like the above. It already does in other places. The appearence of Crusades. Hordes. Etc. the game can be changed a LOT if the Developers want. this isn't even close to the same game it was at release. Hell, it's had more changes that it is basically a brand new game entirely by this point.

He's a politician or political science student, I think, nothing else can be so disgustingly greasy and full of *censored*.

What was your answer?
That CK2 should only focus on Europe? Because it is about conflict between Christians and Muslims in the Middle East?
First answer is your personal opinion. Second answer is a wrong answer.
You fail to acknowledge why your second answer is a wrong one.
And your opinion is just that: -an opinion.
An opinion that not even Paradox devs share. After all, they made so many expansions that focus on non-Christians and non-Europeans.
You don't care about opinions of other people. You want only Europe, because of reasons, and you believe that your opinion is somehow the right opinion, which everyone should share. Again, because of some reasons...

Shush, he's so self-centered that he insists on forcing everyone else to bow to his will and acknowledge that he is right, even when reality strongly, STRONGLY disagrees.

Alright so in this scenario the Pope has a sister who converts to Tengri/Islam(can't remember when they converted), marries the ruler of the Il-Khanate, the Pope calls a Crusade and then the Il-Khanate join in and help in the fight for the Holy Land. We now have something that barely even resembles the historical events only made possible by things that never happened.

If you want history, read a textbook, because I highly doubt you starting in 769 will have a son born on the right date by in 1044 who is of the right name (named by you) who married a woman of the right name with the right historical lineage.

 

[Guardian54]

Guys play nice enough of the fucking insults

I think we will play nice once that one guy stops telling us "Fuck you all I don't want China in the game even if the game engine can handle it--which you are asking for, condition included--because I am so important that my wants are SOOOOO much more important than yours even if I keep making my arguments floating goalposts and keep moving them to argue for why I don't want China because I only play Europe so everyone else can go die in a hole."

That is approximately how we are reading his obstinate behaviour by this point, and yes, it is intended to be a run-on abomination of a sentence.

We tried patiently explaining to him that we are seeking China IF the game can accommodate or be made to accommodate it, becuase China was important to world history (and yes, Europe is part of the world, modern American Exceptionalism did not have a counterpart in Europe at that time given how silks, spices and such were such important sources of wealth. Then he basically told us that since he only plays Europe he could not give a wooden nickle about anywhere else and says no one else's desires matter, only his.

And after enough repetitions of that claim you either rally a raving mob of lunatics like Genghis Khan, Hitler, or Mao did, or you get a lynch mob (virtual or otherwise) running you out of town/into the ground.

 

[HREmperor]

I think we will play nice once that one guy stops telling us "Fuck you all I don't want China in the game even if the game engine can handle it--which you are asking for, condition included--because I am so important that my wants are SOOOOO much more important than yours even if I keep making my arguments floating goalposts and keep moving them to argue for why I don't want China because I only play Europe so everyone else can go die in a hole."

That is approximately how we are reading his obstinate behaviour by this point, and yes, it is intended to be a run-on abomination of a sentence.

It's fine for young children to have imaginary friends, but you need to stop mixing yours up with me.

 

[Zusk]

If China is added and you guys cant handle it on your PC's cant you just mod it out like some of you did for India?

 

[just_a_beaver]

Holy crap, everybody, calm down... I know this is a generic response, but it's only a game. I understand that you all have your reasons to quarrel, but at the end of the day, it's the Dev's that have the say, the history, and the know-how of the base game, so, unless they don't make all or a part of Far East Asia playable and unlocked, this speculation is utterly undeserving of such an intense argument.

Personally, I don't see how CKII can ever be historical, from the year that you start your dynasty to the very last day, next to nothing will have happened that's actually historical besides pre-loaded wars and the History of characters long gone before the start of the game (this is without player interference, and even then, it isn't possible in some cases to be historically accurate). Perhaps the greatest "flaw" (for lack of a better word) of this game is that it is so damn accurate and detailed and so full of features that it screws over the accuracy of any game.

Remember; just don't flip out about this, there are more pressing matters in the world that deserve more attention and anger than this. Don't let him/her get to you.

 

[Robert II]

W

I think we will play nice once that one guy stops telling us "Fuck you all I don't want China in the game even if the game engine can handle it--which you are asking for, condition included--because I am so important that my wants are SOOOOO much more important than yours even if I keep making my arguments floating goalposts and keep moving them to argue for why I don't want China because I only play Europe so everyone else can go die in a hole."

That is approximately how we are reading his obstinate behaviour by this point, and yes, it is intended to be a run-on abomination of a sentence.

We tried patiently explaining to him that we are seeking China IF the game can accommodate or be made to accommodate it, becuase China was important to world history (and yes, Europe is part of the world, modern American Exceptionalism did not have a counterpart in Europe at that time given how silks, spices and such were such important sources of wealth. Then he basically told us that since he only plays Europe he could not give a wooden nickle about anywhere else and says no one else's desires matter, only his.

And after enough repetitions of that claim you either rally a raving mob of lunatics like Genghis Khan, Hitler, or Mao did, or you get a lynch mob (virtual or otherwise) running you out of town/into the ground.

Fair enough I guess just reading your dumb no your thick saddens me a little and reading some of the stuff that happened in China during the ck2 period I've become vaguely hyped about China . I knew nothing before but well with maybe a diplomacy revamp we could get whipped mongols and crusaders double teaming a Muslim group them a plauge/famine weakening the mandate then big peasant and army revolt mongols called away damn I want china now kinda see what you with your reasoned posts have done.

 

[DukeDayve]

Fine, they can add China if they want. They can add the whole world if they want. I'd love that - CK2 is one of my favourite games of all time and expanding its world just means more fun for me.

But we've had to put up with terrible optimization and laggy, buggy, stuttering gameplay for so long now that I decided months ago I wouldn't play CK2 again until an optimization patch (which is coming very soon, thank God). I just hope adding another massive piece of land like China doesn't break it again.

 

[just_a_beaver]

I don't know if this was due to a recent patch or something, but I used to play CKII with Rajas of India and other DLC's at Max. Speed with no problems, then about 3 months later, I play again and 3 speed is destabilizing my game. Is this related to what you all are talking about?

 

[Robert II]

Fine, they can add China if they want. They can add the whole world if they want. I'd love that - CK2 is one of my favourite games of all time and expanding its world just means more fun for me.

But we've had to put up with terrible optimization and laggy, buggy, stuttering gameplay for so long now that I decided months ago I wouldn't play CK2 again until an optimization patch (which is coming very soon, thank God). I just hope adding another massive piece of land like China doesn't break it again.

I think it's actually the ere and the college of cardinals that cause a lot of the slowdown sure more people doesnt help but the castration happy Greeks are responsible for a lot

 

[klopkr]

Guy stop attacking each other or else the thread will get locked and we won't get to discuss it at all. Is it so hard to state your opinions without taking dissent as a personal attack?

 

[DukeDayve]

I think it's actually the ere and the college of cardinals that cause a lot of the slowdown sure more people doesnt help but the castration happy Greeks are responsible for a lot

I don't care anymore, just as long as it gets fixed and then not broken again by adding another huge chunk of land with no bearing on a game primarily focused on Christians Vs. Muslims.