Please dont nerf corruption, Add the option to turn it off

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@Johan

just want to say keep up the good work. you've probably had quite a lot of negativity aimed at you over the last while. personally i greatly appreciate your work, and the work of the rest of the EU4 team. EU3 and 4 have consistently been two of my most favourite games and they've gotten me through some hard times, like recently i've been in surgery twice in the past month. So thank you johan, even if the community has issues i just wanted to voice my support because it must be hard when a heap of well meaning people are all voicing concerns at the same time all at you in particular.
 
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@Johan

just want to say keep up the good work. you've probably had quite a lot of negativity aimed at you over the last while. personally i greatly appreciate your work, and the work of the rest of the EU4 team. EU3 and 4 have consistently been two of my most favourite games and they've gotten me through some hard times, like recently i've been in surgery twice in the past month. So thank you johan, even if the community has issues i just wanted to voice my support because it must be hard when a heap of well meaning people are all voicing concerns at the same time all at you in particular.
I wouldn't say he's being singled out outside of quoting him on stances like "Corruption won't be changed" and "Corruption is drastically reduced on easy difficulty". The majority of people complaining about corruption want to play on hard difficulty because they like the other changes.

MN and 1.16 would literally have essentially zero backlash via mechanics if corruption was not implemented or if it was implemented in its current stated WITHOUT impacting monarch points. People would have suggestions to tweak corruption in the later case, but it would not be nearly as controversial as it currently is.

People who want to cite 1500 WCs:

Seriously, get off of your high horses. You're literally saying people who enjoy min maxing and expanding in this game in SP are not allowed to have fun since due to them having fun it's ruining your SP experience because they play differently.

We don't go around saying tall play, RPing play, or really any other play needs to be nerfed into the ground because you're doing something that we don't. So why do you feel the need to attack our way of playing? The only rationale conclusion I can come to is that you see what other players do and think that since they can do that and you cannot then they must not be allowed to do more than you can because... reasons. Well, human psychology to be exact, but basically reasons.

It's just be nice if the devs would quit trying to handicap the good players by limiting the skill in this game patch after patch and instead focus on making other ways of play viable and hopefully raising the skill cap instead of lowering it.

I've never been as attached to a game studio like I am with PI and it pretty disheartening when they do this kind of stuff. I really do understand now why people like TMIT are so skeptical of honestly good developers. As someone who works in an IT company, am fluent in IT, and have played multiple video games of at a high level for much of the past 10-15 years, I can recognize good work when I see it. Unfortunately IT people tend to get arrogant when people try to talk to them about IT and especially when it comes to their product. Usually it's down to the fact that they made it and think they are smarter than the people pointing out mistakes in it so dismiss them as being less intelligent than themselves since they don't understand it as well as they do. Hell, I'm not an IT person (a business + IT hybrid, so sort of am) and I've caught myself doing it since I am very tech savvy. It happens to everyone, it's not a reflection of poor character or an attack on them. Just wish they'd realize it from time to time and not make comments like "Explaining Algebra to a 3 year old" instead of using reason and logic.

That said, they interact with us and being a game developer sucks from all the criticism you gain from the worst of all critics - gamer fans. They stream stuff and the minority will throw horrible insults at them like "why is the guy with marbles in his mouth talking" or "is that a snake den on that guys' head?" from "fans" of the game. Unfortunately it's the minority that hurt even though it's often not even close to all of the positive feedback they receive. Dealing with stuff like that day in and day out is exhausting and it's the main reason why I stopped doing anything with development or managing communities.

Well, at least I've put on another text wall tangent addressing 700 different points because ADHD is wonderful :p
 
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It's just be nice if the devs would quit trying to handicap the good players by limiting the skill in this game patch after patch and instead focus on making other ways of play viable and hopefully raising the skill cap instead of lowering it.

agree 90%, they should be raising the skill cap, good/bad are subjective only because of the many different areas of the game. Still the devs haven't really been adding more options for different play styles, just limiting the only currently viable one. I know there will be folks that say " you don't have to expand so quick" but TBH if someone has fun doing that, why would you want to take it away?
You're literally saying people who enjoy min maxing and expanding in this game in SP are not allowed to have fun since due to them having fun it's ruining your SP experience because they play differently.

We don't go around saying tall play, RPing play, or really any other play needs to be nerfed into the ground because you're doing something that we don't. So why do you feel the need to attack our way of playing? The only rationale conclusion I can come to is that you see what other players do and think that since they can do that and you cannot then they must not be allowed to do more than you can because... reasons. Well, human psychology to be exact, but basically reasons.

This is the thing I most don't understand about the people saying "Good" to any limits of gameplay, what is it that drives your animosity?
 
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We don't go around saying tall play, RPing play, or really any other play needs to be nerfed into the ground because you're doing something that we don't. So why do you feel the need to attack our way of playing? The only rationale conclusion I can come to is that you see what other players do and think that since they can do that and you cannot then they must not be allowed to do more than you can because... reasons. Well, human psychology to be exact, but basically reasons.

No, you (as in the min/max megablob anti-corruption et al crowd, not necessarily you personally) go around saying any mechanic that inhibits your preferred style, no matter how realistic and historically sound needs nerfed, removed, etc. cuz you don't like it damaging your playstyle. So what if it is good for the RPers immersion, flavor, whatever or helps the tall players by causing poorly planned blobs to implode or have other concerns than gobbling up their juicy target provinces. It slows down your playstyle so it must go...
 
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Saying mechanics in this game are realistic and historically sound, is like Hollywood saying one of their movies is "based on actual events."

Are you saying that internal corruption and poor administration never once brought an empire to its knees and caused its downfall?
 
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Are you saying that internal corruption and poor administration never once brought an empire to its knees and caused its downfall?
Are you saying that corruption is based on a scale that is determined by technology and conquest? Are you saying that 'poor administration' is caused by leaders not having enough mana glands? EU4 is a game, so until you argue a game related reason for this mechanic (seeing as many have argued against it using gameplay as their reasoning) you have no good argument.
 
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No, you (as in the min/max megablob anti-corruption et al crowd, not necessarily you personally) go around saying any mechanic that inhibits your preferred style, no matter how realistic and historically sound needs nerfed, removed, etc. cuz you don't like it damaging your playstyle. So what if it is good for the RPers immersion, flavor, whatever or helps the tall players by causing poorly planned blobs to implode or have other concerns than gobbling up their juicy target provinces. It slows down your playstyle so it must go...

So what you're saying is that Corruption is good for the Tall players and RP crowd because it causes AI blobs to implode? Or are you talking about Multiplayer player blobs that you were trying to play tall or rp against?

I had to help my ai blobs implode by feeding them, because the AI doesn't really blob hard with the new corruption, so that's why I'm asking you to clarify how exactly it helps the Tall and Rp crowd enrich their game.

Edit: Aside from the aforementioned historical realism.
 
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Corruption won't be nerfed.

Since we already moved most important AI features to hard difficulty only, it might be a good idea to disable corruption, inflation and other such features that make the game more challenging on easy difficulty.
yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
 
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So what you're saying is that Corruption is good for the Tall players and RP crowd because it causes AI blobs to implode? Or are you talking about Multiplayer player blobs that you were trying to play tall or rp against?

I had to help my ai blobs implode by feeding them, because the AI doesn't really blob hard with the new corruption, so that's why I'm asking you to clarify how exactly it helps the Tall and Rp crowd enrich their game.

Edit: Aside from the aforementioned historical realism.

I don't play multiplayer so it was more about sp but I would guess it has somewhat similar effects in mp. The ai not blobbing as hard because of the mechanic is also a gain for the tall players (presumably) as a not quite as big blob is not quite as hard to stand up against...

Are you saying that corruption is based on a scale that is determined by technology and conquest? Are you saying that 'poor administration' is caused by leaders not having enough mana glands? EU4 is a game, so until you argue a game related reason for this mechanic (seeing as many have argued against it using gameplay as their reasoning) you have no good argument.

The only "gameplay" reasoning against corruption I've seen anywhere is "QQ, I have to stay at peace because corruption will ruin my nation if I take more land, I want to blob harder!!!!". Hardly a compelling argument IMO. "Mana glands" represent the ruler/government's ability/effectiveness in the various areas so yes, it is certainly reasonable that poor "mana glands" would contribute to generating corruption, especially when instead of taking actions to shore up the weak areas you instead exacerbate the problem by ignoring the problem area and focus on other things.
 
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I have to stay at peace
If there were things that you could do at peace that were reliable skill differentiators on the order that fast-expansion warmongering was, I would agree with you that corruption would be an excellent mechanic.

There are not.

You seem incapable of understanding that some difficulty enhancing mechanics (coalition implementation is one, though it could be improved) lead to better gameplay. Some difficulty enhancing mechanics do not. Instead, you keep insisting that certain people want an easier game, which is completely besides the point.

For example, more aggressive coalitions that actively punish severe strategic overextension (not overextension the game stat) would be, in my opinion, a pretty healthy change. Tying BROT or aggressive expansion modifiers to diplomatic tech might be another.
 
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I don't play multiplayer so it was more about sp but I would guess it has somewhat similar effects in mp. The ai not blobbing as hard because of the mechanic is also a gain for the tall players (presumably) as a not quite as big blob is not quite as hard to stand up against...



The only "gameplay" reasoning against corruption I've seen anywhere is "QQ, I have to stay at peace because corruption will ruin my nation if I take more land, I want to blob harder!!!!". Hardly a compelling argument IMO. "Mana glands" represent the ruler/government's ability/effectiveness in the various areas so yes, it is certainly reasonable that poor "mana glands" would contribute to generating corruption, especially when instead of taking actions to shore up the weak areas you instead exacerbate the problem by ignoring the problem area and focus on other things.
You're completely misreading every argument against corruption. I would praise paradox fully if they actualy added difficulty to blobbing. Unfortunately, they just keep adding features that do nothing but slow down blobbing, and in the case of corruption it even messes that up (I'm blobbing FASTER now than I did earlier)
Your mana argument might make sense if mana wasn't such a wide reaching mechanic. Bad leaders weren't anti-science, and often bad leaders made bad descisions that could be mitigated if a good administration was in place, and if there was a good administration bad leaders didn't have too much of an effect because the state was well held together. However, EU4 says that expansion=bad administration, which clearly isn't the case. Early in the time frame of EU4 the most expansionist empire-the ottoderps, also had one of if not the most efficient administration because they had to have an effective administration to effectively incorporate conquered lands. It was only after a long period of decadence and corruption (note:I'm talking about actual corruption here, not 'bad tech makes people corrupt as does getting new land, and to get rid of the people who keep taking bribes just throw MORE MONEY AT THEM, seriously, who thought ANY of this made sense, at all?).
 
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I

(coalition implementation is one, though it could be improved)
This point I must disagree with, coalition implementation is the exact opposite of what it should be. As is, for no apparent reason paradox constantly refuses to add a balance of power mechanic to keep blobs in check while keeping this stupid beatstick that barely does anything beyond keeping small nations that want to grow in europe from doing anything
 
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If there were things that you could do at peace that were reliable skill differentiators on the order that fast-expansion warmongering was, I would agree with you that corruption would be an excellent mechanic.

There are not.

You seem incapable of understanding that some difficulty enhancing mechanics (coalition implementation is one, though it could be improved) lead to better gameplay. Some difficulty enhancing mechanics do not. Instead, you keep insisting that certain people want an easier game, which is completely besides the point.

And your ilk seem to keep insisting that the only way to "play the game" is warmongering expansionism. It's not like there aren't other options in a peace deal than "take all this wrong everything land up to my OE limit". No, as soon as anything gets put in that might slow warmongering expansion you rise up and call for its removal because "the only gameplay is war" and it is stopping me from going to war.

Also, I never specifically said you want an easier game, you just don't want to have to adapt your "optimized" strategies to a new playing field. It's not that hard to keep your tech balanced enough to avoid serious corruption issues but you want to stick to your "7/4/as high as possible" plan. It's a strategy game, if one strategy stops working you adapt
 
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And your ilk seem to keep insisting that the only way to "play the game" is warmongering expansionism. It's not like there aren't other options in a peace deal than "take all this wrong everything land up to my OE limit". No, as soon as anything gets put in that might slow warmongering expansion you rise up and call for its removal because "the only gameplay is war" and it is stopping me from going to war.

Also, I never specifically said you want an easier game, you just don't want to have to adapt your "optimized" strategies to a new playing field. It's not that hard to keep your tech balanced enough to avoid serious corruption issues but you want to stick to your "7/4/as high as possible" plan. It's a strategy game, if one strategy stops working you adapt
So you're saying that we should just expand slower? How exactly is that more challenging?
 
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And your ilk seem to keep insisting that the only way to "play the game" is warmongering expansionism. It's not like there aren't other options in a peace deal than "take all this wrong everything land up to my OE limit". No, as soon as anything gets put in that might slow warmongering expansion you rise up and call for its removal because "the only gameplay is war" and it is stopping me from going to war.
The most decision-intensive aspect of this game is war.

Here is a tall play enabling mechanic that the game no longer has. It used to be possible, for example, to spike the price of grain dramatically without conquering a lot due to the dynamic pricing system. The game lacks that aspect now, and while I understand why from a processing perspective, in an ideal world things like that are better drivers of tall play.

Right now, most tall play is making a lot of very easily mathematically optimized decisions which don't require evaluating the game-state at all (do I build manufactory on grain province or cloth province? hard decisions). Whereas choosing to DOW an alliance bloc 3 times your numbers because you see an opportunity to split their stacks requires far more ability distinguishing strong players from the rest.


Also, I never specifically said you want an easier game, you just don't want to have to adapt your "optimized" strategies to a new playing field. It's not that hard to keep your tech balanced enough to avoid serious corruption issues but you want to stick to your "7/4/as high as possible" plan. It's a strategy game, if one strategy stops working you adapt
Of course I can adapt. Paradox just basically said that every Asian Hindu / Animist tag wants to form Mughals ASAP because RCC is even more important now (Hindu now pidgeon-holed into Shiva -> being able to run 3 missionaries with significant religious investment still struggles to keep RU up), humanist builds are more powerful (requiring a ToH religion or ToH idea set to get full value out of the idea group), and Mughals free-reforms tribal countries allowing better utilization of the states mechanic. So there's one adaptation.

Alternatively, "don't play animists." Fun 'decision' there, as if playing a religion with practically no same-religion land to conquer wasn't already plagued with problems.

I can come up with others, including intentionally sabotaging economy during corruption reduction times under the old income dependent root cost.

The fact that I could see this within 1 hour of considering the matter means its not a meaningful decision. In fact it has reduced the meaningful decisions to be made in the game.

The game is worse for it.
 
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It was only after a long period of decadence and corruption (note:I'm talking about actual corruption here, not 'bad tech makes people corrupt as does getting new land, and to get rid of the people who keep taking bribes just throw MORE MONEY AT THEM, seriously, who thought ANY of this made sense, at all?).

Yes, because anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that money spent "rooting out corruption" is spent on improving the administrative apparatus and policing violators, it's not "throwing more money at them".

Getting more land means shaking up and stressing the existing administration which allows corrupt behavior to creep in the cracks. Poor religious unity invites problems along sectarian lines with zealots getting on the inside and causing issues (realistically there should also be a hit for cultural unity but that would probably be a bit excessive plus the culture system is pants anyway). Tech difference shows as being behind the times allowing the guy with the newfangled gadgets or ideas to take advantage of the system.
 
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If there were things that you could do at peace that were reliable skill differentiators on the order that fast-expansion warmongering was, I would agree with you that corruption would be an excellent mechanic.

There are not.

Corruption need not mean long periods of peace. It means you have to control the rate at which you expand if you want to avoid needing peaces to stabilize.

So you're saying that we should just expand slower? How exactly is that more challenging?

The slower you expand, the more time your opponents and rivals have to get larger, which means they can pose a larger threat. It also means that you can't neuter your rivals and enemies as quickly because you can't just go from rival to rival and gut them by taking huge amounts of land. And it also means that your power doesn't snowball as quickly, meaning that the game does not become trivially easy as quickly as it would otherwise.

Slower expansion might not make the game inherently harder, but it allows for emergent possibilities where the game becomes more difficult than it would be otherwise because you aren't snowballing out of control and tearing your enemies apart before they can really do anything.
 

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Yes, because anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that money spent "rooting out corruption" is spent on improving the administrative apparatus and policing violators, it's not "throwing more money at them".

Getting more land means shaking up and stressing the existing administration which allows corrupt behavior to creep in the cracks. Poor religious unity invites problems along sectarian lines with zealots getting on the inside and causing issues (realistically there should also be a hit for cultural unity but that would probably be a bit excessive plus the culture system is pants anyway). Tech difference shows as being behind the times allowing the guy with the newfangled gadgets or ideas to take advantage of the system.
So these police demand so much money that it costs more than all my other expenses combined, yet at the same time they're not extremely greedy and taking bribes left and right. Also improving administration is only feasible when corruption in a minor factor, lack of corruption causes administrative improvement (as the higher ups are actually trying to improve the state rather than trying to improve the size of their wallet), improving administration doesn't destroy corruption
getting more land means that you are making your nobles happy, because they get stuff from the new land. The happier you nobility is with its situation (and the more rewarded it is for not being completely and utterly corrupt if you're smart and try to give the most stuff to the most competent nobles) therefore the immediate effect of conquest is less overall corruption, not more. Corruption is a long-term effect of conquest. Poor religious unity is a mixed package, as it allows an easy route for corrupt nobles to exploit the untolerated minority, but it also allows for a group of people whose exploitation negates the need for corruption to earn money in some circumstances. Tech difference means nothing. It just means your nation focused on one certain area of improvement.
 
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