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Well i only made 1 comment i think. Something like. 'What you fought on without me', thats gamey!, or something. Almost straight away you demmanded apology without making you case. Im not even sure if it was me or HG you were talking to. It was only 1 comment i made. I didnt pause or hold up the game or something. If you had just explained it was honest mistake calmly im sure the situation wouldnt have got out of hand. Actually, i think this had more to do with you and HG than me perhaps.

BTW i wiped out your 100k army in thace in 1 battle with my uber leader and OE surrendered 3 provs. Thought id just mention that :p
 
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cheech said:
Well i only made 1 comment i think. Something like. 'What you fought on without me', thats gamey!, or something. Almost straight away you demmanded apology without making you case. Im not even sure if it was me or HG you were talking to. It was only 1 comment i made. I didnt pause or hold up the game or something. If you had just explained it was honest mistake calmly im sure the situation wouldnt have got out of hand. Actually, i think this had more to do with you and HG than me perhaps.

BTW i wiped out your 100k army in thace in 1 battle with my uber leader and OE surrendered 3 provs. Thought id just mention that :p

Good to hear from you Cheech!

I have no quarrels with you, none at all. I saw afterwards that you had asked to whom I addressed my request for an apology. As you can see from this thread it was the GM I was referring to. Everything went so fast that I almost had eyes only for what the GM wrote.

Did you really whipe the entire army. :( It was perhaps good I had left, I would have gotten an ulcer... :D

But I inspected the save and saw you took 3 provinces. What kind of a leader was that you had? I had at least one 4-4-4-leader, although not in Thrace.

It was a pity on that game. It was my favourite game of the week. I had great plans. It was only u who interferred with my plans now and then ;)
 
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hehe you made big mistake making enemy of russia. Wanting that COT was very greedy of you and i guess you kinda payed for it. My leader was 7 shock so with 60k cav i couldnt loose that battle really.
 
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cheech said:
hehe you made big mistake making enemy of russia. Wanting that COT was very greedy of you and i guess you kinda payed for it. My leader was 7 shock so with 60k cav i couldnt loose that battle really.

Ah, but that was 90 years ago. You do have a long memory ;)

7 shock. Huh, that leader generator really should have a more reasonable limit.
 

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Daniel and others, maybe the reason HG didn't order a rehost immediately was that Daniel never answered his question, "was the war real or fake?", and made a bad assumption. Maybe he thought "if the war is real, DANIEL WOULD BE TELLING US TO REHOST ALREADY". I'm sure he didn't think that you would fail to realize that Cheech crashed, in which case what he assumed is quite understandable and fairly reasonable.


With that out of the way, I will tell you the main reason what you did so angered everyone.

One, as Cheech pointed out, your method of righting the situation was to demand an apology without even explaining who you demanded an apology from, as if it was obvious. Maybe if you'd expressed yourself clearly, explaining who you wanted an apology from and for what, you would've gotten one and we could've sorted things out.

The second problem with what you did was that you held up the game, pausing it as though what you had to say was so important it couldn't wait until after the session, or even after the war. Nobody likes it when you hold everything up. I'm pretty sure nobody thought it was important for that pause. You did that for like five minutes before finally leaving. If you had the patience to wait until a more appropriate time to bring out your case, none of this would've happened.

Thirdly, when the GM deliberately told you to unpause and play the game, you showed no respect, you brushed his authority aside without the slightest acknoledgement, instead stubbornly insisting that you get an apology before continuing to play, without being very helpful about it at all.

In a nutshell, the problem with what you did was that you insisted on getting your way then and there, refusing to let us play until you did. Even if you explained your case well to us at the time, we still would've had to wait a long time for it to get done in game, which would've been very inconvenient to everyone except you. You should be more patient and be willing to compromise by waiting until after the session or for peace to discuss the issue. Then there is time, and it can be done properly without anybody getting mad at you. It's unfortunate that things turned out the way they did, but hopefully this serves as a valuable lesson for avoiding this very unnecessary kind of misunderstanding in the future.
 
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King John said:
Daniel and others, maybe the reason HG didn't order a rehost immediately was that Daniel never answered his question, "was the war real or fake?", and made a bad assumption.

The first post shows that Daniel said it was a real war. HG immediately knew it was a real war, so there was no reason to not rehost immediately.
 
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John, thanks for taking your time writing your long post. I can see you are earnest in what you write and I will try to respond to all of your points of view.

------------------

King John said:
Daniel and others, maybe the reason HG didn't order a rehost immediately was that Daniel never answered his question, "was the war real or fake?"...


As you can see from FAL's answer he did get a response. The actual sequence was

"HolisticGod :Is it a real war with the OE, Daniel?"
"Daniel A :Real!"
"HolisticGod :Rehost in Jan."
"HolisticGod :God damn it."

Of which I only saw his first question.

King John said:
With that out of the way, I will tell you the main reason what you did so angered everyone.

One, as Cheech pointed out, your method of righting the situation was to demand an apology without even explaining who you demanded an apology from, as if it was obvious. Maybe if you'd expressed yourself clearly, explaining who you wanted an apology from and for what, you would've gotten one and we could've sorted things out.

I am sure HG understood well to whom I was referring. But sure, I should have said something to the community as well, to make the whole thing more clear. I apologise for not doing that. I will do that the next time if there ever is one, heaven forbids.

Read the log and take a guess on the probability of HG giving me an apology. It is quite obvious, I believe, when reading the log afterwards, that he would not.

King John said:
The second problem with what you did was that you held up the game, pausing it as though what you had to say was so important it couldn't wait until after the session, or even after the war. Nobody likes it when you hold everything up. I'm pretty sure nobody thought it was important for that pause. You did that for like five minutes before finally leaving. If you had the patience to wait until a more appropriate time to bring out your case, none of this would've happened.

IMO it was "so important it couldn't wait until after the session".

I had just been accused of cheating and lying. Perhaps you are more accustomed to such things and believe it to be a bagatelle. Well in those circles I move around it is not. And from the action I took, leaving the game, you can see it had great importance not only for me but also for you, the whole game, because to lose a regular perm is that serious. Do you not agree?

King John said:
Thirdly, when the GM deliberately told you to unpause and play the game, you showed no respect, you brushed his authority aside without the slightest acknoledgement, instead stubbornly insisting that you get an apology before continuing to play, without being very helpful about it at all.

As I wrote I considered my "contract" with him (and thus with the rest of you) as broken by him by his behaviour. Thus I was under no obligation to show him respect, nor obedience. I was just kind enough and gave him one last chance to save the situation, i.e. to make an apology.

It was up to him to show respect for my honesty, to show that he took my word about what I knew and not knew as the truth, rather than believing himself to be an allknowing God who had complete knowledge of what went on in my brain. But he failed to do so. Instead maintaining I was a cheater and a lier.

King John said:
You should be more patient and be willing to compromise by waiting until after the session or for peace to discuss the issue.

I am very patient with some things, such like province edits needed because of the bug that colonies and TPs goes to the alliance leader regardless of the peace conditions. And similar.

I am not patient when someone characterizes me as a crook. That is something entirely different.

King John said:
... but hopefully this serves as a valuable lesson for avoiding this very unnecessary kind of misunderstanding in the future.

I still fail to see any misunderstanding. HG believed I cheated and lied and I understand that this is what he believes. I have not misunderstood him.

Perhaps you believe he "misunderstands" me? E.g. when I say that I did not know that Cheecho chrashed. Then I say to you as I wrote to Mulli above: how can such a simple message be "misunderstood"? It can be "mistrusted", as it was, yes. But that is not the same thing as to be misunderstood, very far from it.

I understand very well what is the real basis for what happened. Thus I know the proper thing to do in order to avoid this situation in the future. And that is to choose more carefully whom I play with. And my decision on that matter has been taken.
 

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Daniel A said:
IMO it was "so important it couldn't wait until after the session".

I had just been accused of cheating and lying. Perhaps you are more accustomed to such things and believe it to be a bagatelle. Well in those circles I move around it is not. And from the action I took, leaving the game, you can see it had great importance not only for me but also for you, the whole game, because to lose a regular perm is that serious. Do you not agree?
It's hard for those of us outside the game to comment but on this point I'll agree with John. Leaving a game abruptly rather than at a regular rehost is poor form and post session is 99 times out a 100 the best time to discuss any disagreements, most especially if they are heated ones.

When you leave abruptly mid-session you harm everyone in the game, not just one individual.
 

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Don't bother trying to discuss with Daniel. <shrug> His mind's made up; he didn't start the thread to discuss things; he wanted people to pat his back and say it was allright; the evil HoG behaved badly and Daniel was justified in doing what he did. Anything else is simply static to him. He's behaved like that in the SP part of the forum for a long time; we just ignore it for the most part. :rolleyes:

I wonder what will happen when he manages to eliminate everyone who regularly plays MP from his list of people with whom to play? :(

Daniel: While I certainly don't recommend playing with people who make you mad on a regular basis, I do think you have to have some willingness to work with a situation. I know you feel gravely offended, and I'm not arguing that you shouldn't; feelings are something that can't easily be argued from a "right" or "wrong" standpoint. But I do think to be a member of the MP community, you have to learn to have some, shall we say, personal armor, to avoid letting those who aren't on the same page with you bother you so badly. Goodness knows I've clashed in here with some noted MP players; but I can still game with them because I set my ego aside a little in the game and figure that most things can be dealt with later. I also try to remember something important: It is only a game. Not worth a lot of emotion.

Not that that is easy to remember when hordes of angry Brandenburgers are careening across my white landscape in support of trenchcoated Polish sprites eager for Habsburg blood... :D
 

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It has to be said that you were in the wrong in balance. Look at the facts.

you were incorrectly accused of being bad form by attacking after i cashed (turns out you didnt notice). Note noone demmanded compensation for this or did anything else other than make the comment.

on the other hand....

you paused and refused to unpause until you got your way
left mid session
disobeyed GM

These three things certainly outweigh the incorrect accusation me and HG made to you. It pales in comparrison really. Frankly though im not bothered. Im happy to play with you in future but would like you to admit you were out of line a little. Its important to admit our mistakes. I have, on occasion, behaved a little imature also, but have apologised on every occasion i think. The priority has to be 'the good of the game'.
 
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DSYoungEsq said:
Daniel: While I certainly don't recommend playing with people who make you mad on a regular basis, I do think you have to have some willingness to work with a situation.


I did exactly that.

From the log at around the 5th of March,

"Daniel A (Ottoman Empire) :Now we will sort this out"

And it was at this moment I paused the game to be able to slow down, calm down and discuss the matter as grown ups.

To which the response was

name = "HolisticGod (Netherlands) :Unpause."

He did not say "unpause and then I, you and Cheech will discuss this" or "Daniel, we will take this at the next rehost, please play on until then" or something similar.

Just "unpause".

He had not up to this moment showed any real interest in discussing the matter (he mostly iterated his first statement that "I knew it") and now this, when I explicitly suggested exactly what you suggest ("have some willingness to work on a situation") he just ignored it.
 
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Wyvern said:
It's hard for those of us outside the game to comment but on this point I'll agree with John. Leaving a game abruptly rather than at a regular rehost is poor form and post session is 99 times out a 100 the best time to discuss any disagreements, most especially if they are heated ones.

When you leave abruptly mid-session you harm everyone in the game, not just one individual.

Would I harm them less if I had decided to leave the game at the next rehost and thus perhaps, at best, focussed say 50% on the game? Then those nations that was more in competition with me than other nations would benefit from this more than the latter would do? Is it not better that my nation directly becomes off-limit or a sub is directly found? I believe that in this case a sub was found rather quickly. Perhaps directly.

IMO this was a much better solution for the rest of the players, it was an equitable solution to the question how best to having me leave the game. And this is exactly what you wanted.

If you believe there was any idea with a later discussion, I refer you as well as other to read the log of the save file. Then I believe you will be enlightened on this matter.
 
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cheech said:
It has to be said that you were in the wrong in balance. Look at the facts.

you were incorrectly accused of being bad form by attacking after i cashed (turns out you didnt notice). Note noone demmanded compensation for this or did anything else other than make the comment.

on the other hand....

you paused and refused to unpause until you got your way
left mid session
disobeyed GM

These three things certainly outweigh the incorrect accusation me and HG made to you. It pales in comparrison really. Frankly though im not bothered. Im happy to play with you in future but would like you to admit you were out of line a little. Its important to admit our mistakes. I have, on occasion, behaved a little imature also, but have apologised on every occasion i think. The priority has to be 'the good of the game'.

You have not made an incorrect accusation. You made a correct accusation, or statement. I did attack you.

As a matter of fact, neither did HG accuse me of this. He was in fact doing something much worse, because he stated (implicitly) as a fact that I cheated and I lied.

The prosecutor accuses, then the judge states the final "truth". HG did the latter without preceding it with an accusation. And neither did he give the defence a chance to speak before he made this statement.

Already at that point he was IMO sliding off his chair as GM. A GM that breaks written or unwritten rules breaks the contract and thus automatically ceases to be a GM. Unless he puts up a rapid and good defense for his actions. He must act withing the rules, as must we all. He can of course change the rules midgame but then the contract with the players must be rewritten.

Thus I do not agree with you that there is some kind of balancing to do. If one person in a game breaks the rules and another says: apologise or I quit because of this, then the latter does not break any rule of obedience or similar. He is outside the community if he so wishes.

------------

As for the pausing I have explained why I did it. Would you have preferred that I said to myself "OK, either I leave the game or we are going to try and sort this out in the middle of an important war. But if the latter then I need a pause. But these guys dislike pauses so much that a pause is out of question. Thus the only alternative is to quit immediately. Press Surrender."

So you see, the reason I paused was for you (and me) and the rest of the crew, to try and save my participation in the game. I behaved just like I would like any other fellow gamer to behave. Trying to calm down and use reason. Do you not agree?

-----------

Really, this fixation with the 5 minute pause (or whatever it was) and the "wait until next rehost" is rather peculiar. The big decision to make was I going to continue to play or not and what would be the best for the game - exactly as you put it.

Well, if one player is insulted to such an extent that you risk him leaving the game, then I think 5 minutes of your time is not much, indeed it is almost nothing. I had spent some 20 hours playing and preparing this game. Now I "stole" 4-5 minutes of your time after having been seriously insulted. Was it really that serious, in comparison? Think please.

And then compare these few minutes to the time thrown away at just about every game start because of bad discipline and bad adminstration of the start up process in the community. I am not one of the sinners in that part of the game.

--------

So, no I don't agree with you that a balancing of errors can be made, I had no obligations after having been treated like I was.

And even if it was possible to make such a balancing, then the outcome would be very far from the one you suggest.
 
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See what I mean? :rolleyes:
 

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ryoken69 said:
The Trenchcoat Mafia :D
Well, you have to admit they do look like they could just take out a blackjack, whop you over the head, and carry you away to, oh, say Seat 22 of Section 45, Upper Deck... :D

I like my participation to be a little less concrete, if you know what I mean.... :p
 
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DSYoungEsq said:
See what I mean? :rolleyes:

Thanks for your constructive points of view.

DSYoungEsq said:
He's behaved like that in the SP part of the forum for a long time; we just ignore it for the most part. :rolleyes:

Well, I've been there a lot longer than you and haven't seen I was ignored. And who "we" is one can wonder. Same kind of logic as HG used when he claimed "We knew...." I guess.

Since you have written long epistles of how experienced etc etc you are it is surprising you choose to degrade the discussion like this.

Amazing what self-control I display ;)