An incident occurred in the Casual Saturday game (also called Loafer’s Saturday). I would like to hear the opinion of other players on this matter.
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I played OE, Cheecho RUS and HG was GM and played NETH.
June 4, 1631 : Russia declared war upon Ottoman Empire."
This was to be the third war between us. I DOWed Russia in around 1540 and he me some years later.
A little time after the DOW RUS attacked me in Thrace. I retreated into Macedonia. RUS followed and I retreated from Macedonia to Smyrna. RUS started a siege in Thrace and Macedonia and also had two sieges further up Balkan. Our armies on other fronts did not move. I started a huge rearmament, building armies all over, moving armies to better positions etc.
Somewhere after Oct 17: “Cheecho (RUS) left the game”
I did not notice this message.
Then HG asks me ingame “Is it a real war with OE, Daniel?
I answer: “Yes it is real.”
By mistake he writes OE instead of RUS, this has nothing to do with the actual incident.
Why I noticed this message of his but not the one about Cheech chrashing I don’t know, perhaps because I saw “Daniel” in HG’s question and reacted subconsciously. In this context I would like to point at my post 47 in the game thread where I say
When HG asked me if the war was real I remember that I wondered a little why he asked me that. What kind of interest did he have in our business? But I rapidly decided I had no time to look into that matter now, I had to continue build up and checking if RUS attacked on any other front (we had four fronts in total). This was a war I did not want to lose, RUS already owned Bulgaria on the doorstep of Thrace, but I had several factors in my favour, such as LT and income.
In November my army in Smyrna had been rebuilt to some 70k IIRC and I was ready to counterattack in Macedonia where RUS had only a 10k army sieging. I embarked my army on a fleet and then landed them in Macedonia around December 1st and eliminated the Russian army. Looking back I might have reflected upon how easy this little victory was but the fact is I did not. Cheecho is a better warrior than me and my focus was to make sure he did not concentrate his armies on some other front and outmaneuvered me, not on questioning my own successes. I continued building armies and it may also be around here that I landed a little army in Djugdur, a RUS TP (I cannot find the date for this landing in the save which may indicate it occurred much later, after the date of my save, i.e. in March). I also tried to release a Leader from my army in Armenia to transfer him to Thrace. “Damned lag” I said to myself when nothing happened. Then I noticed a lot of “X has left the game” and understood that a rehost took place. It was now around Jan 1.
At this moment none of my armies were on Russian territory (with the possible exception of Djugdur) while RUS sieged Thrace and two provinces up Balkan. The battles so far had been three, he winning in Thrace and in Macedonia and I in Macedonia. I remember having checked the war score after the second battle in Macedonia and it was 2-1 to RUS.
Around Jan 13 “cheecho: hey OE attacked me when i crashed"
"HG: After he knew you'd crashed, as a matter of fact."
"HG: Because I saw the sieges after I mentioned it."
"HG: Bad pool, Daniel."
After some time I notice these messages and respond:
"Daniel A: I did not know he chrshed"
"HG: I told you he crashed, Daniel."
"HG :I asked if it was a real war."
"Daniel A: I did not know I say"
We had a rule about “usual exploit stuff” being forbidden. That rule obviously covers this case. Not that anyone needs it, to attack a chrashed player is of course out of the question. However: to intentionally do what is forbidden is to cheat in my vocabulary. Thus, by stating that I knew that Cheech had chrashed HG implicitly stated that I had cheated. You can perhaps imagine how I felt being portraited as a cheater without having had the chance to defend myself before that statement was made. I believed this was such a serious matter that I could not discuss the matter and at the same time make war. Hence I paused the game and said:
"Daniel A: Now we will sort this out"
"HG: Unpause."
"Daniel A: I ask for an apology"
"HG: We know you knew."
Note that this last statement implicitly means that my previous statement “I did not know” was a lie. Also note how the earlier implicit “I know” has been changed to “We know”.
"Daniel A: No one is going to say i behave badly"
"HG: It's in the log."
It continued like this some more.
When the GM, without consulting me, implicitly first states that I had cheated and then secondly that I had lied and further did not want to apologise, I then considered these attacks on my personal character that serious that not only had I lost the joy of gaming but I also came to the conclusion that the contract between myself and the fellows in the game had been nullified. N.b. by the GM, not by myself. Thus I said I wanted an apology in 10 seconds and when I did not get it I left the game.
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I have eliminated some verbal abuse and also some comments from several other players who asked me to unpause.
In case someone wants to read the game log it is on the Russian site.
http://www.europa2.ru/cgi-bin/leagu...=ic&season=Valkyrie.net V&lang=eng&choicet=14
Another point of some value is that HG, DSY and myself had a discussion about rules in another thread.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=188577&page=5&pp=25
There HG wrote:
The quote at the top is by DSY and the “That’s it exactly” is HG’s comment to the quote.
Now imagine the following conversation in the actual game
Cheecho: “hey OE attacked me when i crashed"
HG: “Daniel, how do you explain this?”
Daniel: “Oh sorry guys, I did not notice he chrashed.”
HG: “Ah, that was unfortunate. Let’s pause the game and decide what to do. Cheech, will you please state your loss from what happened. And Daniel, will you please state what actions you took after the chrash. Then we will reach a solution that is equitable for all parts involved.”
And so on.
Well, that would have been “harmoniously”. Do you not agree?
---------------
And of course, this would never have happened at all if the GM had made an immediate rehost when Cheecho crashed.
---------------------
I played OE, Cheecho RUS and HG was GM and played NETH.
June 4, 1631 : Russia declared war upon Ottoman Empire."
This was to be the third war between us. I DOWed Russia in around 1540 and he me some years later.
A little time after the DOW RUS attacked me in Thrace. I retreated into Macedonia. RUS followed and I retreated from Macedonia to Smyrna. RUS started a siege in Thrace and Macedonia and also had two sieges further up Balkan. Our armies on other fronts did not move. I started a huge rearmament, building armies all over, moving armies to better positions etc.
Somewhere after Oct 17: “Cheecho (RUS) left the game”
I did not notice this message.
Then HG asks me ingame “Is it a real war with OE, Daniel?
I answer: “Yes it is real.”
By mistake he writes OE instead of RUS, this has nothing to do with the actual incident.
Why I noticed this message of his but not the one about Cheech chrashing I don’t know, perhaps because I saw “Daniel” in HG’s question and reacted subconsciously. In this context I would like to point at my post 47 in the game thread where I say
Daniel A said:I just want to add that I did not participate in any such voting. I must have missed that question as I missed several other messages, as well from Sterk as from Cheech. When I am in war I tend to miss a lot of messages.
Do you guys have the same problem or is it just me
When HG asked me if the war was real I remember that I wondered a little why he asked me that. What kind of interest did he have in our business? But I rapidly decided I had no time to look into that matter now, I had to continue build up and checking if RUS attacked on any other front (we had four fronts in total). This was a war I did not want to lose, RUS already owned Bulgaria on the doorstep of Thrace, but I had several factors in my favour, such as LT and income.
In November my army in Smyrna had been rebuilt to some 70k IIRC and I was ready to counterattack in Macedonia where RUS had only a 10k army sieging. I embarked my army on a fleet and then landed them in Macedonia around December 1st and eliminated the Russian army. Looking back I might have reflected upon how easy this little victory was but the fact is I did not. Cheecho is a better warrior than me and my focus was to make sure he did not concentrate his armies on some other front and outmaneuvered me, not on questioning my own successes. I continued building armies and it may also be around here that I landed a little army in Djugdur, a RUS TP (I cannot find the date for this landing in the save which may indicate it occurred much later, after the date of my save, i.e. in March). I also tried to release a Leader from my army in Armenia to transfer him to Thrace. “Damned lag” I said to myself when nothing happened. Then I noticed a lot of “X has left the game” and understood that a rehost took place. It was now around Jan 1.
At this moment none of my armies were on Russian territory (with the possible exception of Djugdur) while RUS sieged Thrace and two provinces up Balkan. The battles so far had been three, he winning in Thrace and in Macedonia and I in Macedonia. I remember having checked the war score after the second battle in Macedonia and it was 2-1 to RUS.
Around Jan 13 “cheecho: hey OE attacked me when i crashed"
"HG: After he knew you'd crashed, as a matter of fact."
"HG: Because I saw the sieges after I mentioned it."
"HG: Bad pool, Daniel."
After some time I notice these messages and respond:
"Daniel A: I did not know he chrshed"
"HG: I told you he crashed, Daniel."
"HG :I asked if it was a real war."
"Daniel A: I did not know I say"
We had a rule about “usual exploit stuff” being forbidden. That rule obviously covers this case. Not that anyone needs it, to attack a chrashed player is of course out of the question. However: to intentionally do what is forbidden is to cheat in my vocabulary. Thus, by stating that I knew that Cheech had chrashed HG implicitly stated that I had cheated. You can perhaps imagine how I felt being portraited as a cheater without having had the chance to defend myself before that statement was made. I believed this was such a serious matter that I could not discuss the matter and at the same time make war. Hence I paused the game and said:
"Daniel A: Now we will sort this out"
"HG: Unpause."
"Daniel A: I ask for an apology"
"HG: We know you knew."
Note that this last statement implicitly means that my previous statement “I did not know” was a lie. Also note how the earlier implicit “I know” has been changed to “We know”.
"Daniel A: No one is going to say i behave badly"
"HG: It's in the log."
It continued like this some more.
When the GM, without consulting me, implicitly first states that I had cheated and then secondly that I had lied and further did not want to apologise, I then considered these attacks on my personal character that serious that not only had I lost the joy of gaming but I also came to the conclusion that the contract between myself and the fellows in the game had been nullified. N.b. by the GM, not by myself. Thus I said I wanted an apology in 10 seconds and when I did not get it I left the game.
-----------------
I have eliminated some verbal abuse and also some comments from several other players who asked me to unpause.
In case someone wants to read the game log it is on the Russian site.
http://www.europa2.ru/cgi-bin/leagu...=ic&season=Valkyrie.net V&lang=eng&choicet=14
Another point of some value is that HG, DSY and myself had a discussion about rules in another thread.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=188577&page=5&pp=25
There HG wrote:
HolisticGod said:
The quote at the top is by DSY and the “That’s it exactly” is HG’s comment to the quote.
Now imagine the following conversation in the actual game
Cheecho: “hey OE attacked me when i crashed"
HG: “Daniel, how do you explain this?”
Daniel: “Oh sorry guys, I did not notice he chrashed.”
HG: “Ah, that was unfortunate. Let’s pause the game and decide what to do. Cheech, will you please state your loss from what happened. And Daniel, will you please state what actions you took after the chrash. Then we will reach a solution that is equitable for all parts involved.”
And so on.
Well, that would have been “harmoniously”. Do you not agree?
---------------
And of course, this would never have happened at all if the GM had made an immediate rehost when Cheecho crashed.
