Please add the famous and ancient city of Troy on the map. At the very least as a building on the map or something.
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Please add Troy
- Thread starter Riekopo
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The Trojans are the Romans. The Trojans fled Troy after the razing of the city and migrated, settling in Italy.
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... according to Virgil, who wanted to hype up Rome and Augustus a bit.
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So were the Franks, the English, and some German dynasties, if you take medieval historians' word for it. Not the Scots, if only because if the English claimed Troy then they'd claim Greece. I cannot emphasize enough how much Aeneas is a mythologized origin story playing off an already mythologized oral tradition, and not history.
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That they are just some locals, like the Oscans, Samnites, Umbrians, and the other Latins which the Romans belonged to, that grew out of their boot.
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Certainly possible. But why the mythology from their own sources? Instead of dismissing it, why not take them at their word?
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This is where we apply Occam's Razor - namely that we go with the option with the fewest assumptions. "Escaped hero of a fictionalized conflict who went on an Odyssey of his own, with the initial source on the subject being a Roman author who wrote what reads like a mix of Homeric fanfic and Augustan propaganda piece" is a lot of assumptions - please remember that this tradition stems from Virgil, not from the general Roman origin myths (which are far more interested in boys raised by wolves). "They were locals who adopted Greek myths to tie them into a heroic narrative" takes far, far fewer, especially as we see later European groups doing the exact same thing.
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The people of the ancient world came up with all kinds of fanciful stories - that doesn't mean they were correct. Especially not when suddenly, at a politically very opportune time, the Romans are suddenly linked to ancient Wilusa, combined with a whole slew of propagandic statements. Plus the complete lack of evidence of it, and that before Virgil Rome already had a Sieglungslegende. And no ancient historians (which Virgil was not) recorded this legend, even though they were peddling different ones all the time.
Plus, compared to the other foundational myths, its the least logical and is clear political propaganda. And if we follow Occam's Razor its the first to be excluded.
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I prefer to be agnostic about the whole thing. I enjoy the displaced Trojans myth, especially since Rome went on to rule the known world and certainly lived up to the hype and glory of Troy in the epics. True or not, it certainly seeped into the cultural conscience of Rome.
I'm not here arguing which is true or not, in fact, you're probably correct in your assumptions that they were just another tribe in Italy. But I always enjoy the myth more than the facts. Whenever some study comes out that says "x wasn't true, it was actually y" where "y" turns out to be some boring, mundane piece of information and "x" was some cool and unique historical myth, I suppose I'm supposed to nod sagely and join the ranks of the learn-ed, but I actually just end bored by the whole thing.
The Romulan myth of the She-wolf is undoubtedly false, but these myths grew out of something. And if I had to guess here, I would say the ancient roman tribes must have been terribly savage and ruthless for a rumor to begin that their founder was literally raised by wolves. What would make people say such a thing? The point being that although these myths are just that, you can still make cultural assumption based on the myths that perpetuated with the people who adopted them. The Trojan thing makes sense due to the Hellene-philic attitude of the Romans. In fact, we make the correct assumption that the romans were terribly admiring of the greeks because of things like this.
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Waaait a minute... Since when are Mesopotamia, India, and Iran not part of the known world? Especially since a lot of what made Roman civilisation came from the Near East, albeit via the Greeks.
I'm the opposite, because that usually means yet another myth about Greco-Roman civilisation gets busted, there's still too many out there.
Thats your conception of wolves, but this is not the Roman conception of these animals. If a wolf is a sacred, or positive creature - having the founder of your civilisation being raised by one transfers some of the traits of the wolf (which the Romans had some kind of positive perception off) to your people. Though maybe someone can further elaborate on the details of Romans and wolves.
Another element of creating a myth is to distinguish onesself from the surrounding peoples. Essentially, we're not like you, we come from Romulus and Remus, you don't. Often this happens as part of a peoples ethnogenesis. The Greeks were good at this, they even made up eponymous ancestors for all the peoples they came across, regardless of which others myths about their origin they already had. Lydus, Car, Mysus, Isaurus
All these myths make sense if you look at the context that spawns them - though keep in mind the Aeniad was more then just this myth, it also carried a slew of predictions about the future of Rome. The whole thing was constructed with a purpose - but that purpose was not to explain the origins of Rome, it was to link it to something even older.
People today still do this, heck, a whole load of people claim to be inheritors of Rome in some way, because thats where the prestige currently is. No one claims descent of the Trojans anymore, because its not valuable. In turn, the rise of Celtic studies and a renewed appreciation for the Celts saw a rise in peoples all over the Atlantic coast clamour to claim some of that suddenly glorious past. Yet when the Celts and Romans start to fade in to obselesence at some time in the future (and they will, eventually, hopefully sooner then later), people wil lose interest in claiming their heritage, and will move over to greener pastures.
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How does this make it less interesting. You can brainstorm the small farming communities on the hills by the Tiber at the time of the Trojan war (I dont recall if archaeology uncovered any habitation earlier than the 10th century though). And instead of fanboying for the mainstream fascination with Troy you can be smarter and instead look for the evolution of Italic tribes in the bronze age and the questions of ther origin and relationship with other indo-european tribes in Europe. Thinking about how Latins and Troy's Luwians are still related in the deep past by sharing a common indo-european language family etc.
This is a clearly ethnocentric and coremporary-centric statement ignoring the fact that human-animal relations in the past are something completely different from today.
Perhaps the she-wolf is a preservation in myth of some totemic aspect preserved in indo-european society and religion? I dont know, just thinking aloud.
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One thing that did came to mind, @Arheo , after the above discussion regarding Virgil's Aeneid, and might be a fun/interesting little event that could be added regarding Troy, is its Hellenistic tourist industry.
Perhaps a small event could be added, where the player (playing Rome or a Hellenic culture tag) can choose to invest a little PI and money in return for some Migration Attraction and a small Commerce Income modifier (5% or less), if they've controlled the two provinces in the west of Troad for a while. (see below) Then some nod can be made to both 'Troy', and the contemporary renewal in Greek interest in the site following the conquest by Alexander, and which can be seen in turn once the Romans conquer the region in Virgil's Aeneid.
Somewhere starting around I believe the middle of the third century, a tourist industry developed on the west coast of the Troad. In an area spanning from at least Rhoiteion (Same province as Ilion, 257) down to at least Chrysa (in 258, Antigoneia Troas), many sited related to the Trojan War become tourist attractions. Places where battles were believed to have been fought, the sanctuaries of Apollo Thymbrias and Apollo Smintheus, any locality even mentioned in the Iliad, and sites believed to have been monuments to heroes of the Trojan War. Since there were not really any of those left, they took to rebuilding Neolithic villages and tumuli and passing them off as related to the Iliad. In at least one case even building monumental architecture on such a Neolithic site.
Some towns and villages especially jump into this, including Hamaxitos, Chrysa, Rhoiteion, and other places in the region happily stepped in, presumably to make money off tourists. I do think it should be restricted to Greeks and their number 1 fanboys the Romans, though, since other cultures would not care much.
Perhaps a small event could be added, where the player (playing Rome or a Hellenic culture tag) can choose to invest a little PI and money in return for some Migration Attraction and a small Commerce Income modifier (5% or less), if they've controlled the two provinces in the west of Troad for a while. (see below) Then some nod can be made to both 'Troy', and the contemporary renewal in Greek interest in the site following the conquest by Alexander, and which can be seen in turn once the Romans conquer the region in Virgil's Aeneid.
Somewhere starting around I believe the middle of the third century, a tourist industry developed on the west coast of the Troad. In an area spanning from at least Rhoiteion (Same province as Ilion, 257) down to at least Chrysa (in 258, Antigoneia Troas), many sited related to the Trojan War become tourist attractions. Places where battles were believed to have been fought, the sanctuaries of Apollo Thymbrias and Apollo Smintheus, any locality even mentioned in the Iliad, and sites believed to have been monuments to heroes of the Trojan War. Since there were not really any of those left, they took to rebuilding Neolithic villages and tumuli and passing them off as related to the Iliad. In at least one case even building monumental architecture on such a Neolithic site.
Some towns and villages especially jump into this, including Hamaxitos, Chrysa, Rhoiteion, and other places in the region happily stepped in, presumably to make money off tourists. I do think it should be restricted to Greeks and their number 1 fanboys the Romans, though, since other cultures would not care much.
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I'd have no issue with event surrounding the Romans (or anyone else) who historically claimed lineage from Troy. But in no way did they pass contemporary knowledge, as far as I am aware. I know he was a later one but taking Virgil as a contemporary source on the matter is no better than taking me as a contemporary source on the fall of Constantinople.
The Trojans were just another unruly people on the borders of the civilised (late Bronze Age) world who weren't important enough to be kept under proper control, who'd want to be descended from them anyway?
Of course the Mycenaeans made sure to talk up how impressive they were for posterity...
Of course the Mycenaeans made sure to talk up how impressive they were for posterity...
Here's another idea: Trojan treasures.
Rome should start owning these three (and some other things):
- the ashes of Orestes
- the scepter of Priam
- the veil of Ilione
To answer OP despite being so late, the city of Ilion owned by Aeolia is already there in the game, and it is already "Troy". That city was destroyed and rebuilt in layers multiple times. Roman Emperor Augustus would rebuild the city for the final time. And in this era the city would depend and thrive on the Aegean and Black Sea trade routes.
The Roman Ilium would go on to be the last phase of the city, before it declined in the early medieval era. From what I have read - silting up of harbour resulting in changing coastline and loss of trade, declining population, presence of large fortified cities nearby like Abydos, Kyzikos, Mytilene and other factors led to its gradual abandonment in two centuries.
The closest OP can get to playing the old bronze-age Homeric Troy is with the Bronze Age mod once it gets updated.
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Now, I would indeed love to see some sort of relic or myth for Rome in the game, to be discovered in the later years.
Aeneid was obvious propaganda, but that means there was strong enough general idea among Roman theological and patrician social circles that they would attempt to connect themselves and their founding myth to Ilium. And once Aeneid was published, that idea only spread to other parts of the society. Enough to make up for a minor gameplay feature like a modifier or a rare relic.
The Roman Ilium would go on to be the last phase of the city, before it declined in the early medieval era. From what I have read - silting up of harbour resulting in changing coastline and loss of trade, declining population, presence of large fortified cities nearby like Abydos, Kyzikos, Mytilene and other factors led to its gradual abandonment in two centuries.
The closest OP can get to playing the old bronze-age Homeric Troy is with the Bronze Age mod once it gets updated.
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Now, I would indeed love to see some sort of relic or myth for Rome in the game, to be discovered in the later years.
Aeneid was obvious propaganda, but that means there was strong enough general idea among Roman theological and patrician social circles that they would attempt to connect themselves and their founding myth to Ilium. And once Aeneid was published, that idea only spread to other parts of the society. Enough to make up for a minor gameplay feature like a modifier or a rare relic.
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