Please add German and Italian Unification to EEP

[unmerged(18418)]

Okay, obviously the main argument against this idea is that they happened in 1870 and 1871 respectively--a bit after the period covered in this game.

But, as we all know, many events already in EU2 are based not on what happened in history, but what could have happened. There is no doubt that the cultural, linguistic, and even political groundwork was in place for the possibility of these two unifications long before they actually happened. In the case of Germany, I have read the opinion expressed that it could have happened hundreds of years earlier if it weren't for constant outside intervention (mainly from France).

I think not only is it historical in theory, but it's just plain fun and something I think a lot of people would like to see.

I won't get into the details of how it would be coded, that's up to the experts. But obviously any German minor could get the opportunity to unite Germany, although it would be slanted toward Brandenburg/Prussia. And likewise any Italian minor could unite Italy, though it would be slanted toward the Kingdom of Sardinia (which was actually based in Piedemonte).

I don't think it should only give CBs, but the name and flag should change. I know this would take some work, but it's worth it.

By the way, does the EEP fix the fact that England is still called England after the Scottish Act of Union? It should definitely change to Great Britain. This became the official name and what most people called the country.

 

[Norrefeldt]

Don't know about England vs Great Britain right now, but the Kingdom of Italy will be included in EEP 1.4.2, coming to you soon!

 

[Elmokki]

Flag of England and France changes by a hard coded feature, so it would waste a tag to change the name also.

 

[unmerged(18418)]

Originally posted by Elmokki
Flag of England and France changes by a hard coded feature, so it would waste a tag to change the name also.

So? EEP is about historical accuracy, right? It's not about avoiding work.

 

[Garbon]

Originally posted by Edge
So? EEP is about historical accuracy, right? It's not about avoiding work.

Although work would have to be done, saving a tag in this case is not simply about less work. Its about the fact, that a nation's name undergoing a change isn't really worthy of a tag, when we have so many nations that aren't represented, but should be. And so, because this project is a volunteer effort, if the one's doing the 'work' don't feel that this sort of change is worth our efforts, then it ain't going to get done.

 

[Norrefeldt]

I agree with you Garbon. I forgot to answer you about Germany. I like the idea but I'm not aware of any material ready to include, so therefor it is not planned right know, as far as I know.

 

[Twoflower]

IMO we have yet to see a reasonable, realistic event set and a good base for German unification - as has been worked out for Italy. What has been brought up until now is only a purely fantasy powergaming scheme that would not be within the scope of EEP (not the AGCEEP either for my taste) - not only due to being ahistorical, but also because it would take away incentive to create a realistic scheme. I remember Truchsess having given a very interesting outline on how the Emperor could have centralized his rule, eventually resulting not in a newly founded Germany - which would be impossible because a Kingdom of Germany existed throughout the years until 1806 - but in a consolidated Kingdom of Germany.
Honestly I cannot see how a united Germany could have been created by conquest before 1848. Unlike in Italy, there was no real German national identity at least until the Reformation, after the Reformation until Westphalia the religious conflicts between Lutherans, Catholics and Calvinists were too strong and after the Thirty Years War the foreign powers who had made sure the HRE would stay fragmented would definitely have suppressed any attempt on unifying Germany.

 

[unmerged(7597)]

I agree with Twoflower - lacking the intervention of player-character superheroes, I can't see how the HRE could have evolved into a stable, centralized state for the entire period of the game.

What EEP needs is not a series of events for the unification of Germany, but a series of events to better simulate the federal disunity of the HRE. If someone wants to try to conquer Germany, go ahead - but please let us try to build in the genuine historical obstacles to such an ambition.

 

[unmerged(18418)]

My historical reading says you're wrong. It says that France had to intervene several times in order to stop German unification. 30 Years War is one example (not so much to stop unification but seen as the perfect opportunity to permanently render it). Napoleon's "Confederation of the Rhine" was another example of French action to retard the unification of Germany. One book I have says something to the effect of "the 30 Years War delayed the unification of Germany by over 200 years." France had to make sure Germany would never unify, and would go to war if it even seemed like a remote possibility, because at that time the unification would have been led by Austria. This was obviously totally unacceptable in balance of power terms. However, France still vigorously opposed it even when it was led by Prussia. As you know, it was only after Prussia had totally defeated France at Sedan that it could safely declare the German Empire. So it wasn't really internal problems preventing German unification--it was France.

Also, events in EU2 are pretty forgiving in general when it comes to strictly what happens in history. For example, Hellas can become Byzantium in 1800. That is clearly ridiculous.

 

[berhaven]

Originally posted by Garbon
Although work would have to be done, saving a tag in this case is not simply about less work. Its about the fact, that a nation's name undergoing a change isn't really worthy of a tag, when we have so many nations that aren't represented, but should be. And so, because this project is a volunteer effort, if the one's doing the 'work' don't feel that this sort of change is worth our efforts, then it ain't going to get done.

IMHO switching to another nation is not just a matter of flag and name.
Take Italy for example. We should examine the different "italian minor countries" events and leaders and decide case by case whether we want to replicate these events/leaders in the "unified Italy" files.
I guess that the Galileo events should happen to Italy as they are dor Florence and/or Venice (of course given the fact that Tuscany and Venice are merged into Italy). At the same time I would accept to have Doria or Prince Eugen (or Eugenio or Eugene however you want to call him) as admiral/general employed by Italy.

BTW, a Eugenio employment event should be somehow interesting even outside the Italy unification question, as he was close to be employed by France before joining the Habsburgs.

 

[Garbon]

Originally posted by berhaven
IMHO switching to another nation is not just a matter of flag and name.

Oh, but I don't remember saying that either. I was just pointing out that the work wouldn't be the only large stumbling block in this 'England-->Great Britain' bit.

 

[unmerged(6159)]

Originally posted by Edge
My historical reading says you're wrong. It says that France had to intervene several times in order to stop German unification. 30 Years War is one example (not so much to stop unification but seen as the perfect opportunity to permanently render it). Napoleon's "Confederation of the Rhine" was another example of French action to retard the unification of Germany. One book I have says something to the effect of "the 30 Years War delayed the unification of Germany by over 200 years." France had to make sure Germany would never unify, and would go to war if it even seemed like a remote possibility, because at that time the unification would have been led by Austria. This was obviously totally unacceptable in balance of power terms. However, France still vigorously opposed it even when it was led by Prussia. As you know, it was only after Prussia had totally defeated France at Sedan that it could safely declare the German Empire. So it wasn't really internal problems preventing German unification--it was France.

Also, events in EU2 are pretty forgiving in general when it comes to strictly what happens in history. For example, Hellas can become Byzantium in 1800. That is clearly ridiculous.

Well obviously that shouldn't be allowed to happen.

The Thirty Years War wasn't about the Hapsburgs trying to unify Germany, it was (in a German sense) about them trying to change the balance of powers between the different parts of the German Kingdon - to make the Kingdom more centralized.

The fact that it took Sedan to get Germany unified doesn't mean that was the only reason Germany couldn't be unified. Prussia also had to beat Austria in decisive fashion. But a key point you're missing is that the German Kingdom (or First Reich) had been dissolved in 1806, and this is a huge difference between the EU period and 1870.

Anyway, I think a well though out scheme for German unification would get support around here. Most of what's been proposed is simply handing out shields.

 

[unmerged(18418)]

Okay, fair enough. I hope someone comes up with a good system.

 

[Twoflower]

Well, I could think of three possibilities:

1. The Emperor (Austria for this purpose since we lack an emperor trigger) manages to centralize the already existing Kingdom of Germany before the Reformation.
conditions: Austria manages to obtain a really strong diplomatic base in the Empire; it gets several Imperial Reform events that allow it to either settle with small reforms / no reforms at all or to implement stronger reforms that move an invisible slider for the Kingdom of Germany that starts at -5 (or so) one step towards centralization. Implementing such reforms will provoke hefty resistance from the imperial princes, and only if Austria solves these conflicts peacefully (i.e. without annexing anybody or acquiring BB) the process can advance further. Slider moves will be saved by flags. If Austria reaches -2 by the beginning of the 16th century, they can establish a more solid version of the historical Imperial circles; each circle (there were ten) will be merged into one country. By going one step closer, to centralization -1, Austria finally causes a reaction from the big neighbours; France, Poland, Sweden, Denmark and Hungary will attack it in order to prevent the formation of a consolidated German Kingdom. Only if the Empire is still fully intact (i.e. no Imperial province is controlled by a foreign power) and Austria fulfills some other conditions (low BB, high relations with all countries in the Empire, suggest more?) the final step to centralization 0 will be possible; Austria inherits all German countries, gets its centralization put to 0 and aristocracy to 10 and turns into Germany. If this is after the reformation and before, say, 1550, Austria only inherits the catholic countries and will face armed resistance from the protestants.
2. During the Thirty Years War, Austria succeeds in imposing the Edict of Restitution, suppresses protestantism and recreates a strong, centralized Kingdom of Germany. The conditions for this would be a major victory in the Thirty Years War, excellent relations with and bribing of the Catholic states (especially Bavaria), perhaps even having all of them as vassals, and defeating the major resistance from foreign powers.
3. Any German state except Austria could achieve the union of Germany by owning most German provinces, having vassalized Austria, defeated some nice rebellions and intervening powers and keeping a low BB (this possibility ought to be incredibly hard).

 

[unmerged(6159)]

I like all these, but what about the Imperial Reform movement of the late 15th to early 16th century. It could present an opportunity for the Emperor to align himslef with the Imperial Knights against the Princes to create a different sort of Germany than the one you're looking at. And if Maximilian hadn't needed support in Switzerland and Italy he might have supported it.

 

[Elmokki]

Well, I think tags can be used to make unified Germany of unified Italy, but not for something like changing the name and the flag of a country.

 

[Stonewall]

Originally posted by Twoflower
Well, I could think of three possibilities:

1. The Emperor (Austria for this purpose since we lack an emperor trigger) manages to centralize the already existing Kingdom of Germany before the Reformation.
conditions: Austria manages to obtain a really strong diplomatic base in the Empire; it gets several Imperial Reform events that allow it to either settle with small reforms / no reforms at all or to implement stronger reforms that move an invisible slider for the Kingdom of Germany that starts at -5 (or so) one step towards centralization. Implementing such reforms will provoke hefty resistance from the imperial princes, and only if Austria solves these conflicts peacefully (i.e. without annexing anybody or acquiring BB) the process can advance further. Slider moves will be saved by flags. If Austria reaches -2 by the beginning of the 16th century, they can establish a more solid version of the historical Imperial circles; each circle (there were ten) will be merged into one country. By going one step closer, to centralization -1, Austria finally causes a reaction from the big neighbours; France, Poland, Sweden, Denmark and Hungary will attack it in order to prevent the formation of a consolidated German Kingdom. Only if the Empire is still fully intact (i.e. no Imperial province is controlled by a foreign power) and Austria fulfills some other conditions (low BB, high relations with all countries in the Empire, suggest more?) the final step to centralization 0 will be possible; Austria inherits all German countries, gets its centralization put to 0 and aristocracy to 10 and turns into Germany. If this is after the reformation and before, say, 1550, Austria only inherits the catholic countries and will face armed resistance from the protestants.
2. During the Thirty Years War, Austria succeeds in imposing the Edict of Restitution, suppresses protestantism and recreates a strong, centralized Kingdom of Germany. The conditions for this would be a major victory in the Thirty Years War, excellent relations with and bribing of the Catholic states (especially Bavaria), perhaps even having all of them as vassals, and defeating the major resistance from foreign powers.
3. Any German state except Austria could achieve the union of Germany by owning most German provinces, having vassalized Austria, defeated some nice rebellions and intervening powers and keeping a low BB (this possibility ought to be incredibly hard).

That is a fantastic outline Twoflower. The first example I've seen about a plausible way for an early German unification.

 

[unmerged(17693)]

Originally posted by Twoflower
Well, I could think of three possibilities:

1. The Emperor (Austria for this purpose since we lack an emperor trigger) manages to centralize the already existing Kingdom of Germany before the Reformation.
conditions: Austria manages to obtain a really strong diplomatic base in the Empire; it gets several Imperial Reform events that allow it to either settle with small reforms / no reforms at all or to implement stronger reforms that move an invisible slider for the Kingdom of Germany that starts at -5 (or so) one step towards centralization. Implementing such reforms will provoke hefty resistance from the imperial princes, and only if Austria solves these conflicts peacefully (i.e. without annexing anybody or acquiring BB) the process can advance further. Slider moves will be saved by flags. If Austria reaches -2 by the beginning of the 16th century, they can establish a more solid version of the historical Imperial circles; each circle (there were ten) will be merged into one country. By going one step closer, to centralization -1, Austria finally causes a reaction from the big neighbours; France, Poland, Sweden, Denmark and Hungary will attack it in order to prevent the formation of a consolidated German Kingdom. Only if the Empire is still fully intact (i.e. no Imperial province is controlled by a foreign power) and Austria fulfills some other conditions (low BB, high relations with all countries in the Empire, suggest more?) the final step to centralization 0 will be possible; Austria inherits all German countries, gets its centralization put to 0 and aristocracy to 10 and turns into Germany. If this is after the reformation and before, say, 1550, Austria only inherits the catholic countries and will face armed resistance from the protestants.
2. During the Thirty Years War, Austria succeeds in imposing the Edict of Restitution, suppresses protestantism and recreates a strong, centralized Kingdom of Germany. The conditions for this would be a major victory in the Thirty Years War, excellent relations with and bribing of the Catholic states (especially Bavaria), perhaps even having all of them as vassals, and defeating the major resistance from foreign powers.
3. Any German state except Austria could achieve the union of Germany by owning most German provinces, having vassalized Austria, defeated some nice rebellions and intervening powers and keeping a low BB (this possibility ought to be incredibly hard).

Twoflower is indeed right

 

[Kepheren]

Please advise

I just down loaded the eep 1.4.2 and was wondering: how does one go about forming Italy? Which countries can do this & what conditions must be met? Thanks for any advice.

 

[norman1066]

about the unfication of italy i can't answer. i actually play as the papal states. All italian provinces are mine plus some provinces along adriatic ans islands (istria, dalmatia, ragusa, corfu and crete). but nothing happened. Maybe i have to take savoy which is french culture but the home land of the royal italian family...