Playing Ming, not sure if it's EU4

[Bibor]

This game can still really surprise you.
If you can imagine a game where your worst enemies are diplomat travel time and tribute micro, you've stepped into the wonderful world of being Ming.

At first, I was not sure what to do. Everything looked so scary...
How should I deal with tribes in the north?
Should I reform mandate as rebels are threathening everyhere?
Will I collapse if I disinherit that wonderful 0/1/1 heir?
What if Ayutthaya, Bengal and Korea break free as when Ming is controlled by AI?

I decided to bravely subjugate Oirat and Chagatai, those threathening tribes in the north you get warned about at the the intro pop-up screen. I lost all of my manpower to attrition.

But then, after developing for Renaissance, suddenly...

Did you know that The Middle Kingdom is so large you can't even stateify it all until 1622? That there are unaccepted cultures in the south? I honestly had no idea! So I decided, as a good emperor, to concentrate on the well-being on my existing subjects, harmonize them religions and I picked up exploration as my first idea group.


It's 1583 now, about 150 years from game start.

- completed all reforms by 1530
- developed most of non-mountain states to 20 development
- harmonized 5 religions
- fully embraced all institutions and founded colonialism
- made my explorers run out of missions before europeans had colonial range to Cape
- have 190.000 troops because I picked Quality instead of Quantity due to misclick.

I have more than a 100 tributaries: Africa south of Sahara, all of America, half of Asia, Portugal and Scotland.

After subjugating Oirat and Chagatai I waged a grand total of 5 wars:
- Subjugated Portugal for the Kow-Tow achievement
- Released and then fought Bengal just because I was bored
- Annexed mexican minors because they had vassals so couldn't Kow-Tow
- Helped my pet ally France in beating off and winning a war against Austria, England and blobby Brandenburg. Mostly because I needed trust with France for it to stop wanting my subject's lands. I had 80% war contribution.
- Attacked Japan so I can harmonize Shinto for the achievement. Did you know Taiwan has a sea border with Japan? Had no idea! This is the only way for fabricating on Japanese islands without taking provinces from tributaries.

I'm anxiously waiting for admin tech 17 so I can finally stateify my ancient mainland posessions.
I'm anxiously waiting for techs in general, because I'm running out of provinces to develop.
I'm also kinda split on whether to let Korea go and just attack it out of boredom.

Did you know you can buy down tributary liberty desire for around 1 ducat per development? Yes, that's right. I can get down Korea's liberty desire from 48 to zero for slighly more than 1000 ducats.


I truly wonder, Paradox, what's the point of Ming? What's the point of Mandate of Heaven expansion, truly? I can understand the tributary system for Hordes because it makes sense to have an odd tributary to mix things up. But what's the point of Ming if it breaks every single game mechanic the game is supposed to run on? Is it a test to see what happens if monarch points, income, manpower stop being a factor?

 

[gia257]

This game can still really surprise you.
If you can imagine a game where your worst enemies are diplomat travel time and tribute micro, you've stepped into the wonderful world of being Ming.

At first, I was not sure what to do. Everything looked so scary...
How should I deal with tribes in the north?
Should I reform mandate as rebels are threathening everyhere?
Will I collapse if I disinherit that wonderful 0/1/1 heir?
What if Ayutthaya, Bengal and Korea break free as when Ming is controlled by AI?

I decided to bravely subjugate Oirat and Chagatai, those threathening tribes in the north you get warned about at the the intro pop-up screen. I lost all of my manpower to attrition.

But then, after developing for Renaissance, suddenly...

Did you know that The Middle Kingdom is so large you can't even stateify it all until 1622? That there are unaccepted cultures in the south? I honestly had no idea! So I decided, as a good emperor, to concentrate on the well-being on my existing subjects, harmonize them religions and I picked up exploration as my first idea group.


It's 1583 now, about 150 years from game start.

- completed all reforms by 1530
- developed most of non-mountain states to 20 development
- harmonized 5 religions
- fully embraced all institutions and founded colonialism
- made my explorers run out of missions before europeans had colonial range to Cape
- have 190.000 troops because I picked Quality instead of Quantity due to misclick.

I have more than a 100 tributaries: Africa south of Sahara, all of America, half of Asia, Portugal and Scotland.

After subjugating Oirat and Chagatai I waged a grand total of 5 wars:
- Subjugated Portugal for the Kow-Tow achievement
- Released and then fought Bengal just because I was bored
- Annexed mexican minors because they had vassals so couldn't Kow-Tow
- Helped my pet ally France in beating off and winning a war against Austria, England and blobby Brandenburg. Mostly because I needed trust with France for it to stop wanting my subject's lands. I had 80% war contribution.
- Attacked Japan so I can harmonize Shinto for the achievement. Did you know Taiwan has a sea border with Japan? Had no idea! This is the only way for fabricating on Japanese islands without taking provinces from tributaries.

I'm anxiously waiting for admin tech 17 so I can finally stateify my ancient mainland posessions.
I'm anxiously waiting for techs in general, because I'm running out of provinces to develop.
I'm also kinda split on whether to let Korea go and just attack it out of boredom.

Did you know you can buy down tributary liberty desire for around 1 ducat per development? Yes, that's right. I can get down Korea's liberty desire from 48 to zero for slighly more than 1000 ducats.


I truly wonder, Paradox, what's the point of Ming? What's the point of Mandate of Heaven expansion, truly? I can understand the tributary system for Hordes because it makes sense to have an odd tributary to mix things up. But what's the point of Ming if it breaks every single game mechanic the game is supposed to run on? Is it a test to see what happens if monarch points, income, manpower stop being a factor?

does france have exploration? because they still wanted all my colonial land at 80 trust :/

 

[Canute VII]

Don't take exploration, if you want a slightly historical Ming. Just DON'T TAKE EXPLORATION!!!

 

[tobias.mb]

Don't take exploration, if you want a slightly historical Ming. Just DON'T TAKE EXPLORATION!!!

Eh, there is actually a quite famous chinese explorer around the start of the game: Zheng_He
AFAIK there is even an event about him.
The chinese government later decided to abandon exploration, but a global (or at least spanning from east Asia to east Africa) chinese trade empire could totally have happened.

 

[eon47]

- have 190.000 troops because I picked Quality instead of Quantity due to misclick.

If you haven't invested any points yet, you can abandon an idea group for free. But yeah, Ming is pointless to play. It's frustrating, since they should be one of the more interesting countries during the time period, but there just aren't any mechanics to reflect the different challenges empires faced compared to smaller states.

 

[Canute VII]

Eh, there is actually a quite famous chinese explorer around the start of the game: Zheng_He
AFAIK there is even an event about him.
The chinese government later decided to abandon exploration, but a global (or at least spanning from east Asia to east Africa) chinese trade empire could totally have happened.

Yeah, I know Zheng He and I also know that he didn't discover America. Instead the went into exactly the opposite direction. Thing is, discover America is exactly what a player would do once he got this idea group. And of course the game thinks that some primitive tribes across the ocean paying Ming tribute would somehow increase its Mandate of Heaven.

 

[Soyaman]

Even before this patch the Ming was ungodly powerful.
I feel like the mandate mechanics are less focused on *being* the Ming and more about interacting *with* the Ming.

But in a game of conquest, does it surprise you that picking the strongest nation in the game by far is easy?

 

[makaramus]

Eh, there is actually a quite famous chinese explorer around the start of the game: Zheng_He
AFAIK there is even an event about him.
The chinese government later decided to abandon exploration, but a global (or at least spanning from east Asia to east Africa) chinese trade empire could totally have happened.

just imagine ming explorers aproaching aztecs at middle of their sacrifice
"I am explorer from Ming, by the name of most great and holy chineese emperor we are here to take tributary from you and ... please do whatever you doing fast .... " XD

Yeah, I know Zheng He and I also know that he didn't discover America. Instead the went into exactly the opposite direction. Thing is, discover America is exactly what a player would do once he got this idea group. And of course the game thinks that some primitive tribes across the ocean paying Ming tribute would somehow increase its Mandate of Heaven.

so you claim that having control even overseas proves nothing?

 

[gia257]

just imagine ming explorers aproaching aztecs at middle of their sacrifice
"I am explorer from Ming, by the name of most great and holy chineese emperor we are here to take tributary from you and ... please do whatever you doing fast .... " XD


so you claim that having control even overseas proves nothing?

the exploration part you could do before MoH, the tributary the world well, not right before

 

[iquabakaner]

does france have exploration? because they still wanted all my colonial land at 80 trust :/

Every colonizer does that. If you're a colonizer, you will pretty much lose all aliiances with other colonizers by 1600s.

 

[Canute VII]

so you claim that having control even overseas proves nothing?

They don't even have boats to bring over their tribute...

 

[KaiserWilhelmI]

They don't even have boats to bring over their tribute...

During Zheng He's voyages it was the Ming fleet that brought the tributes from foreign lands.

 

[Canute VII]

During Zheng He's voyages it was the Ming fleet that brought the tributes from foreign lands.

o.k. sorry for the sloppy remark...
Ming certainly very much values some painted animal skins
(again sloppy, but I'm in the mood for it )

 

[Rocketskates]

Ming is the final boss, you are playing the final boss, what did you expect?

 

[heliostellar]

Ming sucks right now. It has an obnoxiously large military and infinite MPs, manpower, and money because the tributary system is ridiculous. They effectively have an infinite guarantee system. Imagine how much people would be screaming if the HRE could basically use the military might of the combined empire to extort the rest of the world and draft random countries into the empire. That’s basically what Ming is, an emperor-at-large that interferes in wars he has no business interfering in.

On top of that, Ming frequently ends up founding institutions. In one game, I saw them found Global Trade and the Enlightenment.

Derpy derp derp

 

[XYN]

Don't hope to ever be able to play China in PDX games and generally enjoy it, unless it is HOI. It is simply too big to be modelled adequately, you already start in a position which would take other countries centuries to achieve.

 

[Bibor]

If you haven't invested any points yet, you can abandon an idea group for free.

I'm aware, but Ming ideas cost 320-330 points. I was at 4th idea when I realized my manpower cap didn't rise.

does france have exploration? because they still wanted all my colonial land at 80 trust :/

France does have exploration and the penalty was eventually -165 or so for wanting my subjects' land. After hitting 80 trust it went down to -80, and after they got beat up by Castile and Ottomans it went down to -40.

But in a game of conquest, does it surprise you that picking the strongest nation in the game by far is easy?

History has proven over and over again that size doesn't matter. An elephant will fall victim to bacteria, a whale to a harpoon, and the Middle Kingdom and it's millions of docile farmers and scheming bueraucrats to hardened steppe warriors.
If it is as you say, that this game is about conquest, then it should model conquests properly. Currently, it doesn't model people with much to lose and much to gain (kings, nobility, bureaucrats, clergy), depending which regime (old or new) wins.

Ming is the final boss, you are playing the final boss, what did you expect?

There were valid reasons why The Middle Kingdom existed, thrived and why it collapsed. Playing Ming is the exact inverse of everything EU4 is about. The player is incentivized to do nothing. Mandate of Heaven, Meritocracy and the empire not falling victim to powerful barons or outside threaths is not gained by working hard, but by staying put at speed 5.

It's ironic and moronic that you have to play Austria to get a game that feels like playing Ming should feel.

 

[Rocketskates]

and austria manages to unite the HRE how often? yea, the AI is limited, previously there was always a mingxplosion, now there isnt, sweetspot is probably in the middle

 

[Bibor]

and austria manages to unite the HRE how often? yea, the AI is limited, previously there was always a mingxplosion, now there isnt, sweetspot is probably in the middle

Yes, forming HRE is too complex for the AI, and Ming is too simple. You're right, sweetspot is in the middle.

 

[colinljx]

This is exactly EU4: there is absolutely nothing to do but blob like crazy once you reach the size/development of Ming.

Ming just incentive you to slow down the blobbing a little so you can blob more at a faster pace at a later date... Till you touch another blob, and watch yourself get burned alive by mandate...