Playing Democratic France

[CantGetNoSleep]

And the matignon agreement is flat out devastating, because you can't remove it.

You can remove it through the decision without getting strikes or even a PP hit. You need two things prior however:
1) Disjointed government is already gone (i.e. you've done the defensive stratagems focus)
2) Communist support < 20%
You may also need political violence gone (?). I never have that as an issue and never take the focus for it, I wait for stability to be > 70% and it removes itself automatically (though make sure stability is above 80% before the war kicks off else it'll come back if stability is <50% and you get a -30% from war).

Also attacking Germany during sudetenland seems pretty gamey, if you're going to do that just kill them during rhineland when they are even weaker.

Agreed. It's also a bit dull.

 

[Black_Shade]

You can remove it through the decision without getting strikes or even a PP hit. You need two things prior however:
1) Disjointed government is already gone (i.e. you've done the defensive stratagems focus)
2) Communist support < 20%
You may also need political violence gone (?). I never have that as an issue and never take the focus for it, I wait for stability to be > 70% and it removes itself automatically (though make sure stability is above 80% before the war kicks off else it'll come back if stability is <50% and you get a -30% from war).

Ah it's the commie support that did me in when I tried to remove then. I just about cried when the strikes fired and killed my run while I was at 80% stability, since I knew from previous patches it was a 50% stability threshold.

 

[Mousetick]

You can remove [the matignon agreements] through the decision without getting strikes or even a PP hit. You need two things prior however:
1) Disjointed government is already gone (i.e. you've done the defensive stratagems focus)
2) Communist support < 20%
You may also need political violence gone (?).

As of the 1.9 Husky version, that's not quite correct. If the government is not communist, you only need to wait until Jan 1, 1938 to take the decision to remove the agreements without risking to be hit by strikes. There are no other conditions to satisfy. See this thread for further details.

 

[Mousetick]

France's Industrial Expansion focus tree :

Invest in...	On Completion	Industrial Expansion	Colonial Industry	Military Factories	Total Slot / CIV / MIL
Metropolitan France	+4 Slots	+4 CIVs		+4 MILs	4 /4 / 4
Algerian France	+4 Slots	+4 CIVs	+4 CIVs	+4 MILs	4 / 8 / 4 *
West Africa	+2 Slots		+2 CIVs	+2 MILs	2 / 2 / 2
Indochina	+2 Slots		+2 CIVs	+2 MILs	2 / 2 / 2
Syria	+2 Slots		+2 CIVs	+2 MILs	2 / 2 / 2
				Grand Total	14 / 18 / 14

* Assuming both Industrial Expansion and Colonial Industry are completed after Invest in Algerian France. Otherwise you get only half of the number of civilian factories (that is 4 instead of 8).

Hope this helps. Let me know if you see anything wrong. Thanks.

 

[CantGetNoSleep]

France's Industrial Expansion focus tree :

Invest in...	On Completion	Industrial Expansion	Colonial Industry	Military Factories	Total Slot / CIV / MIL
Metropolitan France	+4 Slots	+4 CIVs		+4 MILs	4 /4 / 4
Algerian France	+4 Slots	+4 CIVs	+4 CIVs	+8 MILs *	4 / 8 / 8 *
West Africa	+2 Slots		+2 CIVs	+2 MILs	2 / 2 / 2
Indochina	+2 Slots		+2 CIVs	+2 MILs	2 / 2 / 2
Syria	+2 Slots		+2 CIVs	+2 MILs	2 / 2 / 2
				Grand Total	14 / 18 / 18

* Assuming both Industrial Expansion and Colonial Industry are completed after Invest in Algerian France. Otherwise you get only half of the number of factories (that is 4 instead of 8).

Hope this helps. Let me know if you see anything wrong. Thanks.

Yup, that's helpful. There's one small error: you do get 8 CIVs in Algeria as it doubles up, but only 4 mils as that doesn't double.

 

[Mousetick]

Yup, that's helpful. There's one small error: you do get 8 CIVs in Algeria as it doubles up, but only 4 mils as that doesn't double.

Nice catch, thanks. Error has been corrected.

 

[Bki]

It's 10 civs for colonial industry, not 8. Remember alergian france gives you 2 states, for 5 colonial states in total.

It's 4 civs for colonial industry because you only do Algerian france. (Though yes, I had counted it wrong yet again) If you have the time to spent 210 days getting nothing from your focus to do the other 3, then the game is already won and it doesn't matter.

Also attacking Germany during sudetenland seems pretty gamey, if you're going to do that just kill them during rhineland when they are even weaker.

In what way is it gamey? (At least more than the usual strats for this game) At most it's too easy vs the AI. Beside you often can't kill them during the Rhineland as they will back down.

 

[Black_Shade]

It's 4 civs for colonial industry because you only do Algerian france. (Though yes, I had counted it wrong yet again) If you have the time to spent 210 days getting nothing from your focus to do the other 3, then the game is already won and it doesn't matter.



In what way is it gamey? (At least more than the usual strats for this game) At most it's too easy vs the AI. Beside you often can't kill them during the Rhineland as they will back down.

Well, grabbing the other colonial foci will still be done before Danzig or War. You won't get much use out of the immediately, but they will help a lot in finishing off Germany, assuming you let them dictate the war start rather than cheesing it early. Particularly those extra 14 mils.

It's gamey because Germany is still at half strength at Sudetenland. It has a lot more industry than you do as France, but started off with a much smaller army and so takes time to get up to speed. The earlier you attack Germany, the weaker they are compared to you as France. Going after them during Rhineland or Sudetenland just makes the game a complete cakewalk, you basically have to try to lose- especially if you take them out with Rhineland. Even with the Civil War, Germany will get steamrolled in under 6 months. Similarly, their army is half the size at Sudentenland than it is at Danzig or War, and also can't replace any losses it sustains in battle because it doesn't have any equipment reserves. Attacking them early is just basically saying "I want the game to be easy".

 

[Bki]

Well, grabbing the other colonial foci will still be done before Danzig or War. You won't get much use out of the immediately, but they will help a lot in finishing off Germany, assuming you let them dictate the war start rather than cheesing it early. Particularly those extra 14 mils.

I'm pretty sure they won't be done by that point actually. Assuming you go national block, you need 7 focus to remove disjointed government, 3 focus to get to dynamic market (Popular front would be the same total amount, though it's only 6 focus to remove disjointed governement but 4 to remove the inefficient economy), and 7 to go through the military tree. That's a total of 17 focus, which will be all finished at about march 1940.

This is assuming you aren't intervening in spain and go some time without focus to get the pp to pass through war economy and keep it once the war finish.

If you go for the research slots instead of the military buff, you need 6 focus if you want to get full value of industrial expansion and the 4th research slot, so it's 1940, and you still haven't started the military tree. Nor gotten the mils from the industry tree, which is what you really want. Nor removed the moronic "full employment" debuff.

If you go for develop the colonies first, then it's 8 focus (counting the research slot) to get all 10 civs.

Edit : also there's the simple fact that any (non-Algeria) colony investment focus you do delay the last research slot by 70 days (and 140 for the first).

It's gamey because Germany is still at half strength at Sudetenland. It has a lot more industry than you do as France, but started off with a much smaller army and so takes time to get up to speed. The earlier you attack Germany, the weaker they are compared to you as France. Going after them during Rhineland or Sudetenland just makes the game a complete cakewalk, you basically have to try to lose- especially if you take them out with Rhineland. Even with the Civil War, Germany will get steamrolled in under 6 months. Similarly, their army is half the size at Sudentenland than it is at Danzig or War, and also can't replace any losses it sustains in battle because it doesn't have any equipment reserves. Attacking them early is just basically saying "I want the game to be easy".

Attacking before your enemy reach the peak of its power is just basic strategy, it's in no way gamey. The entire point of a WW2 game that start in 36 is to make change to start the war in an advantageous position. It might be too easy to go little entente and contain Germany, but considering how crippled France is overall in the game it kinds of balance out.

There's not much challenge doing this against ai, but that's another issue (which could be improved if Germany would have some reaction and alternate path if France go for the little entente, but there isn't since Paradox care more about the Netherland than France in this game).

 

[Black_Shade]

Attacking before your enemy reach the peak of its power is just basic strategy, it's in no way gamey. The entire point of a WW2 game that start in 36 is to make change to start the war in an advantageous position. It might be too easy to go little entente and contain Germany, but considering how crippled France is overall in the game it kinds of balance out.

There's not much challenge doing this against ai, but that's another issue (which could be improved if Germany would have some reaction and alternate path if France go for the little entente, but there isn't since Paradox care more about the Netherland than France in this game).

Like I said, if you want the game to be a cakewalk, just attack Germany at Rhineland. There's really not much point in doing things like attacking Germany 1-3 years early unless you are achievement hunting. The game is just way too easy by doing this. You're literally ending the game before it starts by attacking so early, Germany has no chance.

I'm pretty sure they won't be done by that point actually. Assuming you go national block, you need 7 focus to remove disjointed government, 3 focus to get to dynamic market (Popular front would be the same total amount, though it's only 6 focus to remove disjointed governement but 4 to remove the inefficient economy), and 7 to go through the military tree. That's a total of 17 focus, which will be all finished at about march 1940.

I just played through as France and I certainly had disjointed government and the factories done before Danzig going National Block. I didn't go for dynamic market right away, I took that once the war broke out, which saved some Foci, because 24 factories seems like a decent trade off for that. I didn't go through the military tree at all, because it doesn't matter. The expensive doctrines is kind of annoying, but once the war in China breaks out and you send an attache you can use army xp to get doctrines done in ~220 days even with the penalties.

I'll play through it going popular front and ignore the tech slots and instead go for the manpower (blum, citizienship,, and indivisible) and military trees- going with national block and the factories the limiting factor was actually manpower, not equipment. I had equipment for another 30-40 divisions but struggled to get them in the field fast enough, nearly lost the Netherlands because of that.

 

[noobermenschen]

Like I said, if you want the game to be a cakewalk, just attack Germany at Rhineland. There's really not much point in doing things like attacking Germany 1-3 years early unless you are achievement hunting. The game is just way too easy by doing this. You're literally ending the game before it starts by attacking so early, Germany has no chance.



I just played through as France and I certainly had disjointed government and the factories done before Danzig going National Block. I didn't go for dynamic market right away, I took that once the war broke out, which saved some Foci, because 24 factories seems like a decent trade off for that. I didn't go through the military tree at all, because it doesn't matter. The expensive doctrines is kind of annoying, but once the war in China breaks out and you send an attache you can use army xp to get doctrines done in ~220 days even with the penalties.

I'll play through it going popular front and ignore the tech slots and instead go for the manpower (blum, citizienship,, and indivisible) and military trees- going with national block and the factories the limiting factor was actually manpower, not equipment. I had equipment for another 30-40 divisions but struggled to get them in the field fast enough, nearly lost the Netherlands because of that.

Post updates on how it goes. The war just kicked off for me, am finishing up the Immigration focus and oooh God my reseeearrrch! I needed all that China attache XP to edit my templates, but have researched two doctrines with focus blueprints and am almost finished with another. After that I should have plenty of XP to rush doctrine research.

Had just enough time, manpower and equipment to field 48 40 width divisions, am going after the Italian penninsula with 36 of them. This came at the expense of building NO airplanes and not sure but from the first weeks' battles I may be getting my butt kicked at sea. We'll see how it goes, keep me posted on your game!

 

[Black_Shade]

Post updates on how it goes. The war just kicked off for me, am finishing up the Immigration focus and oooh God my reseeearrrch! I needed all that China attache XP to edit my templates, but have researched two doctrines with focus blueprints and am almost finished with another. After that I should have plenty of XP to rush doctrine research.

Had just enough time, manpower and equipment to field 48 40 width divisions, am going after the Italian penninsula with 36 of them. This came at the expense of building NO airplanes and not sure but from the first weeks' battles I may be getting my butt kicked at sea. We'll see how it goes, keep me posted on your game!

France really doesn't have the factories to build air, IMO.

I usually use 20W (9 Inf/1 AT/1 AA line battalions + support art, aa, motorized recon, and engineering) infantry to hold the line, and then 20W tanks to do the heavy lifting in Italy. I also convert all the starting Cav divisions to motorized and use an identical template to the leg infantry for the motorized divisions, you should have 13-14 or so motorized. You end up not spending too much xp on division templates this way, as your starting templates are basically this already minus the AA/AT. It worked out fine when I did Revive the National Bloc+Factories/Research slots, but I wasn't able to hold in Netherlands/Belgium going the Popular Front route- I actually lost this game. I did get unlucky on the popular front game that Germany didn't declare war on Belgium until the Netherlands was already dead, which meant holding Belgium was basically impossible. Will have to reload from Danzig and try again. But at least from the first test, national bloc> popular front.

When going National Bloc+Factories I had 10 tank divisions, 13-14 motorized, 96 20W in Europe, 12 20W in N Africa, and the 4 mountaineers in Corsica. About half of the infantry was untrained though, as I couldn't switch to extensive conscription until danzig and I was literally out of manpower for the previous year and just had to deploy them ASAP from the queue to prevent the lowlands from falling.

Also I don't allow myself to attack until Germany attacks the low countries, with the exception of kicking Italy out of North Africa- and only this one because otherwise the Brits do it and somehow get like 300 warscore for doing nothing. This means generally no land taken until November of '39. It also makes going through the Alps a lot trickier, to the point where landing in Sicily is generally much easier (and lets my tanks get to work).

 

[noobermenschen]

France really doesn't have the factories to build air, IMO.

I usually use 20W (9 Inf/1 AT/1 AA line battalions + support art, aa, motorized recon, and engineering) infantry to hold the line, and then 20W tanks to do the heavy lifting in Italy. I also convert all the starting Cav divisions to motorized and use an identical template to the leg infantry for the motorized divisions, you should have 13-14 or so motorized. You end up not spending too much xp on division templates this way, as your starting templates are basically this already minus the AA/AT. It worked out fine when I did Revive the National Bloc+Factories/Research slots, but I wasn't able to hold in Netherlands/Belgium going the Popular Front route- I actually lost this game. I did get unlucky on the popular front game that Germany didn't declare war on Belgium until the Netherlands was already dead, which meant holding Belgium was basically impossible. Will have to reload from Danzig and try again. But at least from the first test, national bloc> popular front.

When going National Bloc+Factories I had 10 tank divisions, 13-14 motorized, 96 20W in Europe, 12 20W in N Africa, and the 4 mountaineers in Corsica. About half of the infantry was untrained though, as I couldn't switch to extensive conscription until danzig and I was literally out of manpower for the previous year and just had to deploy them ASAP from the queue to prevent the lowlands from falling.

Also I don't allow myself to attack until Germany attacks the low countries, with the exception of kicking Italy out of North Africa- and only this one because otherwise the Brits do it and somehow get like 300 warscore for doing nothing. This means generally no land taken until November of '39. It also makes going through the Alps a lot trickier, to the point where landing in Sicily is generally much easier (and lets my tanks get to work).

One very notable advantage with National Bloc is much higher stability. I actually got France to 100% stability before the war. Thank you @CantGetNoSleep for the advice! Producing all Military factories from the start seems to have made for a lot of the lost factories from the Popular Front branch. I ran a big deficit on rifles for a while hoping to get Lend Lease, which UK and the Raj extended but quickly cancelled. And I forgot about the horrors of not having rifles for your occupation troops...

On the plus side I capitulated Italy a day after Warsaw fell - Vive le France! (Sorry Poland). Also received a large amount of desperately needed equipment, so I dodged a bullet shorting myself on rifles. Just finishing the Immigration focus so I should be good with Selective Conscription until mid-1940. I will likely skip the Navy and Air Force trees and go for the factories and those cursed research slots, but even that may be slowed down as I am considering the Tech Sharing permanent focus for a few months so I can catch up on 1939 industry. My production and manpower should now support 8 new divisions every 90 days, so I should have more than eighty 40 width divisions for a Spring 1941 invasion of Germany. I finally have five factories building 1936 fighters with improved engines.

 

[Harin]

France really doesn't have the factories to build air, IMO.

That advice was just in time for a Democratic France game I played recently. I produced no aircraft until about 1940 and even then only after I was making enough of everything else I needed. It went very well. Thanks for the tip.

 

[noobermenschen]

That advice was just in time for a Democratic France game I played recently. I produced no aircraft until about 1940 and even then only after I was making enough of everything else I needed. It went very well. Thanks for the tip.

It's funny how many counter intuitive decisions you have to make as France. "Hey, I've got rubber and all kinds of aluminum! I can build a huge air force!"... Nooope. And when you finally can build aircraft you're stuck with building old models you've had since Jan 1936 because you can't spare the research!

I'm gaining major Air XP and just investing it in 1936 airframes. I have 10 factories on 1936 fighters with +5 engines, and have managed to replenish my starting four fighter wings and shoot down a lot of Heinies in the process. Just put another 5 on 1936 CAS with +5 range, +3 reliability. I will probably put my next 5 on 1936 Tac so I can rebuild my one surviving (veteran) air wing. I'm going to need the air help because I've just realized le État is in for a long war...

I almost changed my mind about going for the research slot focus tree (getting my fourth research slot the end of 1940) as I thought the most crucial battles would be fought early/mid 1941 and was wondering if some naval bases and tech sharing would help more by then. My original plan was to invade northwestern Germany with 48 divisions like so: (the invasion plan currently in place is my attempt to get Weygand the Organizer trait).

Spoiler

Notice the Dutch foolishly asked the UK if they could join the Allies, and the Rosbifs foolishly let them join and promptly get capitulated, which complicated my invasion plans to say the least. I am wondering if Belgium is going to make the same mistake. Hitler then made the situation even more challenging by getting Yugoslavia into the Axis. Hungary is already in, and Romania is about to join. I would like to back out of Istria to shorten my lines and get out of the Balkan air zone, but that is where I built my radar. Bah.

Spoiler

So I am torn on what to do - Go for Wilhelmshaven and Hamburg to weaken Germany, try to clear out the Balkans and take that sweet puppet equipment, or just keep turtling and get ready for the Japanese onslaught? 1940 Amphibious Transports will be researched by the end of the year and I will have sixty 40 width divisions ready to go (48 Infantry, 12 Motorized/Light Armour) plus Olry's 24 divisions holding northern Italy. Complicating things is the Heer is very strong and my divisions still have a tough time against them. I have five Army Doctrines researched but my weapons techs are about a year behind so I am a bit short on firepower and can't pierce the Panzer divisions (I am tech rushing 1941 AT upgrade, which upset my already gimped research). Japan is also a question mark, as the "Liquidation of the Chinese Incident" is not exactly going swimmingly:

Spoiler

Anyhoo this has been a very enjoyable campaign, and looks like it will continue to be so as the challenges just keep coming!

 

[CantGetNoSleep]

Pretty good result so far for November 1940. I always kind of ignore Italy, but you've made me think taking it out so early. I like it.

 

[noobermenschen]

Pretty good result so far for November 1940. I always kind of ignore Italy, but you've made me think taking it out so early. I like it.

Thank you! It is an exploit since Germany won't launch Fall Gelb if there is an active front on or near their southern border. This is usually a good move for the AI (launching Barbarossa while there is a fight in western Europe would be suicidal for instance), but in this case attacking the Low Countries while the Allies are breaking their teeth on the Austrian Alps would make more sense.

I couldn't hold Istria but was able to fall back while handing a lvl 2 radar over to the enemy (can't destroy those!? ). Held on even though the AI moved most of it's divisions south. Here is Smiling Albert launching a small probing attack. Subtle. They never did take that mountain tile either.

Spoiler

But all the excitement in the south handed me an opportunity, and I was able to launch my invasion of Germany nearly on schedule (early March) and it worked! I'll post some screenies later today.

 

[noobermenschen]

The amphibious mission is a PITA to edit for large operations and this was no different, I believe you need a high level naval base (higher than 1 at least) to launch multiple missions from the same port. So I had to launch from Dunkirk and le Havre and eventually got it sorted out:

Spoiler

My only opposition was a pair of 4 x INF +ENG brigades which held out for a distressingly long time:

Go, sir, gallop, and don't forget that the world was made in six days. You can ask me for anything you like, except time.

Normally as USA or UK I dig in to the Northwest Germany air zone, which I can cover from the Isles, build up ports and fight off the horrid German counterassault. I could not afford to do that as France, so I just kept pushing forward hoping my allies would step in an help me. Instead it was the Germans that helped:

Spoiler

Where did Fritz go? Back to the Italian border when I am sitting in Berlin and the Rhineland. What are they planning to do? They haven't dug my divisions out of those mountains for over a year. As it was they never launched an attack.

Long story short it took about seven weeks from the first landings to the end of World War II in Europe, except for some reason the Kingdom of Croatia is holding out. Once again I desperately needed the captured equipment (running short of artillery this time). I took no land except East Prussia including Memel, for a base against the Bolsheviks. Japan is going to get rowdy in a couple of months so I will continue and see how my refitted fleet does in the South China Sea.