Playing Democratic France

[noobermenschen]

I am playing my first HoI4 France campaign and am taking a prudent course the first time out to learn how things work in Paris. Sticking pretty close to a historical path, but would like to form Little Entente next time. Just finished January 1939:

- I went with Leon Blum. have removed Disjointed Gumment and Inefficient Economy and have joined the Allies. Am currently taking the Army Tree and working my three research slots as hard as I can. I was intrigued by the air power path but for reasons to follow I took the path that gives the forts (Lame, I know.).

- I decided to go with 40 width divisions for several reasons, the biggest one being I started with four 12 x MTN divisions and wanted to keep them and buff the template, then flip it to an identical INF template. Turns out a lack of Army XP is limiting my template options badly. I have 40 width Training and Mountain and should have Infantry ready to go by August (depends on how much fighting there is in China). But no Motorized/Light Tank divisions before 1940. Starting with 20 width templates in 1939, later expanding the divisions to 40 width in 1940 (I do this as UK) would have had some drawbacks but might have worked better.

- My build up was probably not optimal, I have enough manpower for 50+ 40 width divisions but by Mid-1939 will have maybe 36, some of them 20 x INF training units, which is all I will have equipment for. I spent the first year building civs and my spy agency. Same buildup I use as Japan and UK, first 15 factories build a series of Civs, next 15 a series of Mils, next 15 a series of Docks. Right now in early '39 I am building radars.

- I cancelled all my starting ships except the four DDs almost finished, and one light cruiser. I have built no new ships but have upgraded all cruisers and should have most DDs upgraded by late 1939. I have two factories each on FTR, CAS, NAV and one on CV FTR - which is enough to gimp my Army build up but not enough to allow me to form new air wings. I am not looking forward to the air war, but the war at sea should go reasonably well.

- I have cracked German and Italian ciphers, and have infiltrated German Army and Air Force. Spaiz and boffins are both focused on Japan right now.

- I have filled a grand total of ONE (1) minister slot (Silent Workhorse). No design teams, no military commands. Good Lord I thought I was starved for PP playing USA.

So a few questions:

- Are there any benefits to sticking with Laval? I saw some sweet industry blueprints but it takes one more focus to get rid of Disjointed Gumment and it appears inefficient economy is reduced but not eliminated. Didn't take a close look but am not sure if you get as many factories as the Blum branch of the Government tree.

- Should I have started building Mils from the get go? I consider the Intel Agency too important to put off though I could have waited to build the individual bureaus (the top row) until 1939.

- How on earth do you guys get ready to fight Germany in 1938 taking the Entente path? I am preparing for a 1939 war and am not likely to pull off my intended plan of knocking Italy out of the war before Poland falls, so will probably have to turtle (Lame, I know). Blah.

Anyhoo if you have played as or are thinking of playing as France feel free to join in, and any advice from french veterans would be welcome!

 

[noobermenschen]

So my plan of knocking Italy out of the war in 30 days using 40 width divisions and battle planner was fine in theory, but did not test well, shall we say:

Spoiler

The fallback was to give AI Germany enough of a southern threat she would not launch Fall Gelb. That did not work out either, so back to turtling on the frontiers.

I have answered the second of my questions, definitely should have built Mils instead of Civs in 1936. Not sure about 20w -vs- 40w for France. 20 width would have given me more divisions for a couple of amphibious assaults at Rome and Sicily, maybe that would have been enough to capitulate before Poland falls. 20 width may be the way to for for a Little Entente path, I don't see any way to get 40w templates finished in time for a 1938 war.

What are your thoughts, bon hommes?

 

[MobiusTwo]

If you want the Big Entente achievement, I got this on my first try in La Resistance. Here's what I did:

-Form the Popular Front. I find the left-wing path gives better bonuses than the right-wing path, at least if you plan on playing as democratic France.
-Be sure to do these national focuses as soon as you can: Reform the Labour Laws, Form the State Arsenals, General Work Council, and National Champions. One of your main problems is a lack of industry and doing these focuses will greatly help your situation.
-After that, you should be able to go down the Review Foreign Policy focus branch. It is super important to get Czechoslovakia, Romania, Poland, and especially the United Kingdom in your faction before Germany declares war on you. With so many fronts to worry about, Germany's offensive capabilities are massively weakened.
-Picking up Strengthen Government and Defensive Stratagems before the war starts is super helpful as well.
-By the time you have all the focuses I named, the Sudentenland crisis should be happening. Side with the Czechs and the war should begin.
-I actually never had the time to get down to the Army Reform branch before Germany invaded, but I would go with Firepower Kills or Air Dominance - for me, the cheaper guns or planes is too good to pass up.
-As far as divisions go, I just built 20-width infantry and tacked on artillery and support equipment as my industry allowed.
-Going non-historical with Death or Dishonor enabled might mean that Hungary forms the Pact of Rome, which removes Italy from the Axis. This didn't happen for me but it'll make your life easier.
-Wait for opportunities to push and you should eventually gain ground. Democratic elements in Germany will start a civil war if Germany fails to take Sudentenland after enough time has transpired, which will all but guarantee your victory. Invite the rebels to your faction and you'll have the achievement in no time.

 

[Fulmen]

Turns out a lack of Army XP is limiting my template options badly.

Send an attaché to China. You can send one to Republican Spain before that, but beware with AI Spain and no player divisions helping the Republicans, the SCW ends already in 1937-38.

I cancelled all my starting ships except the four DDs almost finished, and one light cruiser.

It's better to tick all the queues down to one ship and finish them all, than to bin hundreds of naval IC days, even if the templates are suboptimal and the hulls obsolete.

 

[noobermenschen]

If you want the Big Entente achievement, I got this on my first try in La Resistance. Here's what I did:

-Form the Popular Front. I find the left-wing path gives better bonuses than the right-wing path, at least if you plan on playing as democratic France.
-Be sure to do these national focuses as soon as you can: Reform the Labour Laws, Form the State Arsenals, General Work Council, and National Champions. One of your main problems is a lack of industry and doing these focuses will greatly help your situation.
-After that, you should be able to go down the Review Foreign Policy focus branch. It is super important to get Czechoslovakia, Romania, Poland, and especially the United Kingdom in your faction before Germany declares war on you. With so many fronts to worry about, Germany's offensive capabilities are massively weakened.
-Picking up Strengthen Government and Defensive Stratagems before the war starts is super helpful as well.
-By the time you have all the focuses I named, the Sudentenland crisis should be happening. Side with the Czechs and the war should begin.
-I actually never had the time to get down to the Army Reform branch before Germany invaded, but I would go with Firepower Kills or Air Dominance - for me, the cheaper guns or planes is too good to pass up.
-As far as divisions go, I just built 20-width infantry and tacked on artillery and support equipment as my industry allowed.
-Going non-historical with Death or Dishonor enabled might mean that Hungary forms the Pact of Rome, which removes Italy from the Axis. This didn't happen for me but it'll make your life easier.
-Wait for opportunities to push and you should eventually gain ground. Democratic elements in Germany will start a civil war if Germany fails to take Sudentenland after enough time has transpired, which will all but guarantee your victory. Invite the rebels to your faction and you'll have the achievement in no time.

Interesting. I pretty much followed the Focus branches you outlined, getting rid of Disjointed Government was my big priority. France has some pretty decent starting templates to build 20 width divisions, biggest challenge is to fit both AA and AT to deal with Medium Tanks - Which Germany might not have a lot of in 1938, hmm...

Send an attaché to China. You can send one to Republican Spain before that, but beware with AI Spain and no player divisions helping the Republicans, the SCW ends already in 1937-38.

It's better to tick all the queues down to one ship and finish them all, than to bin hundreds of naval IC days, even if the templates are suboptimal and the hulls obsolete.

I did send an attache to China, I hadn't thought about Spain, and was starved for political points as it was. Interestingly the Spanish Civil War is still blazing late 1939. The nationalists appeared to be on the ropes for a while but may be gaining the upper hand now.

The issue with French ships isn't their early hulls but the lack of light attack to sink enemy destroyers. French cruisers literally had no secondary batteries and many light cruisers were completely unarmoured so I took a chance to refit all of them, making the heavy cruisers scouts with 2x floatplane II, gave the light cruisers some armour (adding armour to an unarmoured ship is not nearly as expensive as upgrading existing armour) and upgrading all CLs and DDs with torpedo II. The crucial naval battles will all be fought before 1942 and early hull cruisers can be pretty devastating in a balanced fleet IF they are armed properly.

No matter which country I play I will usually cancel any ship less than roughly 15% complete, I figure it's cheaper to build a better design from scratch rather than finish them and refit. I suppose I could have left Dunkerque and Richelieu at the bottom of the que with one dock each for just in case, for a future fast squadron.

Thank you both for your advice! I will play out this campaign for a while to see if I get smoked in Northern France or if those forts and 40 width divisions are worth it.

 

[MobiusTwo]

Interesting. I pretty much followed the Focus branches you outlined, getting rid of Disjointed Government was my big priority. France has some pretty decent starting templates to build 20 width divisions, biggest challenge is to fit both AA and AT to deal with Medium Tanks - Which Germany might not have a lot of in 1938, hmm...

Not every division needs those things, but obviously whatever you can produce isn't going to hurt your war effort. The key is really gathering all possible members of the Entente together to stop Germany at the same time. Those other fronts for Germany to worry about more than make up for your lack of forts or even ideal templates.

The issue with French ships isn't their early hulls but the lack of light attack to sink enemy destroyers. French cruisers literally had no secondary batteries and many light cruisers were completely unarmoured so I took a chance to refit all of them, making the heavy cruisers scouts with 2x floatplane II, gave the light cruisers some armour (adding armour to an unarmoured ship is not nearly as expensive as upgrading existing armour) and upgrading all CLs and DDs with torpedo II. The crucial naval battles will all be fought before 1942 and early hull cruisers can be pretty devastating in a balanced fleet IF they are armed properly.

No matter which country I play I will usually cancel any ship less than roughly 15% complete, I figure it's cheaper to build a better design from scratch rather than finish them and refit. I suppose I could have left Dunkerque and Richelieu at the bottom of the que with one dock each for just in case, for a future fast squadron.

And with all due respect, I think that if you're playing as democratic France, you're wasting your time trying to build up a navy. The critical early game research slots should be devoted to things that will help you win the war against Germany on the ground or the air. Let the United Kingdom (and later, if it goes on that long, the US) worry about ships. Likewise, I wouldn't worry too much about your lack of an intel agency. You need those factories for industry.

This screenshot is my "proof of concept" of my strategy when I played.

 

[noobermenschen]

And with all due respect, I think that if you're playing as democratic France, you're wasting your time trying to build up a navy. The critical early game research slots should be devoted to things that will help you win the war against Germany on the ground or the air. Let the United Kingdom (and later, if it goes on that long, the US) worry about ships. Likewise, I wouldn't worry too much about your lack of an intel agency. You need those factories for industry.

This screenshot is my "proof of concept" of my strategy when I played.

Very nice, I'm going to have to try the Entente path in the future.

Refitting the French Navy isn't a big demand on research, the only tech you need is Floatplanes II. For some reason I can fit Torpedoes II onto my ships even though I don't appear to have the tech (one French DD design has TT II mounted), I researched sonar but that doesn't seem to be an essential tech for the French Navy (even though I really can't spare factories for Navs, which are the best sub killers). Researching 1940 navy techs is not likely necessary except perhaps DP Secondaries and 1940 subs, but even that isn't likely to happen in 1940 with three research slots. Playing Allied France the best strategy is to try and knife the main enemy Strike Force in the liver before they can cause too much trouble, and let your AI Allied fleets mop up.

As for Intel, I am hoping infiltrating German Army and Air Force will give me some help in battle, and my counterintel will capture a German spy (haven't yet, and the Brits are meddling in Paris so I'm wondering if THEY will gain the intel from any captured Boche). Also cracking German codes could give me an edge - I did not use my decrypt against Italy as I was confident my plan would work, maybe I should have done so. It's a pretty big expense for 1936, but I could have waited to build my intel bureaus (the top row on the intel board) until I was at Partial Mobilization.

 

[ambien]

First, deny the reoccupation of the Rhineland. You will bleed PP, but it will be worth it.

Go down the Little Entente path, add Poland to your faction and join the Ententes. In 1938, go to war over the Sudetenland. Launch an offensive immediately into the Rhineland. While Poland and Czechoslovakia occupy the bulk of Germany's forces, you should be able to cross the Rhine into the heart of Germany within a few years.

Make sure you have enough divisions to hold the line in the alps. You can also kick Italy out of North Africa quickly by launching an immediate offensive into Libya with 10 basic divisions.

You will want to prioritize production on infantry equipment, support equipment, artillery, CAS and fighters. Later in the game you can focus on building tanks and trucks. The Air Dominance focus tree, combined with the Battlefield Support air doctrine, is powerful. France also has a Ground Support expert who gives an additional 15% ground support bonus.

 

[CantGetNoSleep]

First, deny the reoccupation of the Rhineland. You will bleed PP, but it will be worth it.

Or you'll end up in a two-front war, on one side Germany, on the other the French Commune, which will have nicked half your army. Good luck then.

 

[ambien]

Or you'll end up in a two-front war, on one side Germany, on the other the French Commune, which will have nicked half your army. Good luck then.

Germany backs down most of the time, and when Germany doesn't back down, it's very easy to beat the commune quickly.

 

[CantGetNoSleep]

- Are there any benefits to sticking with Laval? I saw some sweet industry blueprints but it takes one more focus to get rid of Disjointed Gumment and it appears inefficient economy is reduced but not eliminated. Didn't take a close look but am not sure if you get as many factories as the Blum branch of the Government tree.

A few reasons:
1) The PP. Laval gets a +10% boost to PP, so almost as good as an advisor, which as France, you've realised, is badly needed.
2) No Matignon agreements (!!)
3) That side of the tree is shorter, so it makes getting the very far left of the French tree with all those juicy civs and mils a more palatable option
4) The final slot on that branch of the tree (market dynamism) is AWESOME. Increasing efficiency cap and efficiency growth is HUGE (I'll let you do the math, suffice to say it's the biggest boost in the game - and unlike more mils, it requires zero more resources).

The downside:
1) Fewer factories indeed. 8 Mils and 4 civs fewer at least, and there's another 5 MILs if you do the reorganise air industry on the LHS of tree you don't get on RHS
2) Worse advisors. No financial expert, you don't get the +20% air research speed guys you get once you've reorganised the air industries

Both sides do get rid of inefficient economy - the Laval side first reduction happens automatically two years after the the second focus. That actually works out only a little later than LHS of tree, but then you don't have Matignon pain, so you're more efficient most of that time anyway.

Honestly, it's a pick your poison kind of thing. I think the LHS is better, but only just barely. The RHS getting more PP (0.2 a day) is pretty useful.

- Should I have started building Mils from the get go? I consider the Intel Agency too important to put off though I could have waited to build the individual bureaus (the top row) until 1939.

Hmmm. Probably not. France gets huge amount of CIVs from trade mid/late game, so there is an argument for not bothering to build any at all, yes. However, it's not as if you have a huge amount of manpower to equip and field a huge army in the first place, so you don't need that many MILs. And since CIVs are so versatile (spies, trade for oil, building more stuff including forts), I would suggest building some.

I think the best guide is do some CIVs until late 37 / early 38. It'll help in the build up. UNLESS you're going to go little Entente. Then don't build anything but MILs.

- How on earth do you guys get ready to fight Germany in 1938 taking the Entente path? I am preparing for a 1939 war and am not likely to pull off my intended plan of knocking Italy out of the war before Poland falls, so will probably have to turtle (Lame, I know). Blah.

Build nothing but MILs, invite everyone in (make sure you do the focus on Poland after you've done the one on Czechoslovakia), join the Entente. Germany can't defeat all of Europe in 1938 and gets mauled. It's the easiest win as France but somewhat unsatisfying as you're going to just a be a small part of the action.

Anyhoo if you have played as or are thinking of playing as France feel free to join in, and any advice from french veterans would be welcome!

Here's a vid that's an amusing revenge on Paradox nerfing France so badly.

 

[noobermenschen]

A few reasons:
1) The PP. Laval gets a +10% boost to PP, so almost as good as an advisor, which as France, you've realised, is badly needed.
2) No Matignon agreements (!!)
3) That side of the tree is shorter, so it makes getting the very far left of the French tree with all those juicy civs and mils a more palatable option
4) The final slot on that branch of the tree (market dynamism) is AWESOME. Increasing efficiency cap and efficiency growth is HUGE (I'll let you do the math, suffice to say it's the biggest boost in the game - and unlike more mils, it requires zero more resources).

The downside:
1) Fewer factories indeed. 8 Mils and 4 civs fewer at least, and there's another 5 MILs if you do the reorganise air industry on the LHS of tree you don't get on RHS
2) Worse advisors. No financial expert, you don't get the +20% air research speed guys you get once you've reorganised the air industries

Both sides do get rid of inefficient economy - the Laval side first reduction happens automatically two years after the the second focus. That actually works out only a little later than LHS of tree, but then you don't have Matignon pain, so you're more efficient most of that time anyway.

Honestly, it's a pick your poison kind of thing. I think the LHS is better, but only just barely. The RHS getting more PP (0.2 a day) is pretty useful.


Hmmm. Probably not. France gets huge amount of CIVs from trade mid/late game, so there is an argument for not bothering to build any at all, yes. However, it's not as if you have a huge amount of manpower to equip and field a huge army in the first place, so you don't need that many MILs. And since CIVs are so versatile (spies, trade for oil, building more stuff including forts), I would suggest building some.

I think the best guide is do some CIVs until late 37 / early 38. It'll help in the build up. UNLESS you're going to go little Entente. Then don't build anything but MILs.


Build nothing but MILs, invite everyone in (make sure you do the focus on Poland after you've done the one on Czechoslovakia), join the Entente. Germany can't defeat all of Europe in 1938 and gets mauled. It's the easiest win as France but somewhat unsatisfying as you're going to just a be a small part of the action.


Here's a vid that's an amusing revenge on Paradox nerfing France so badly.

That video is a riot! Thank you for the advice.

One thing I am learning about the revised focus trees is that you can only benefit from some branches, and can only take the rest after you no longer need them. So if the Laval Branch has fewer focuses but fewer factories, I might be able to finish the immigration focuses (I learned the hard way about putting those off) and then skip the Army, Navy and Air Force branches and go straight for the branch that gives the research slots. French starting tech is very good so you don't fall far behind until 1939, but then you fall WAY behind quickly. As it after finishing the Blum branch I finished the Army tree, then went for some dockyards and fighter blueprints, so I won't have five research slots until nearly 1943. Bah.

So plan B for knocking Italy out of the war was a naval invasion with 10 divisions, including two motorized/light armour. To my surprise it worked brilliantly:

Spoiler

Unfortunately and also to my surprise, after pecking away at my dug in troops filling all combat widths, The German attack through Belgium worked brilliantly as well:

Spoiler

I was able to beat the Boches back from Paris with a lot of help from AI Britain (credit where credit is due), but now they are very close to cutting off the Maginot Line. I am rushing a few divisions from Italy but instead of a neat little front on the Austrian border I have a long messy front from Milan to Bologna I think. And war with Japan is about nine months away. So I might be giving this another try from 1936 pretty soon.

Thank you all for your advice!

 

[CantGetNoSleep]

I was able to beat the Boches back from Paris with a lot of help from AI Britain (credit where credit is due), but now they are very close to cutting off the Maginot Line. I am rushing a few divisions from Italy but instead of a neat little front on the Austrian border I have a long messy front from Milan to Bologna I think. And war with Japan is about nine months away. So I might be giving this another try from 1936 pretty soon.

Thank you all for your advice!

Good luck. France is by far the hardest major to play, but it can become insanely powerful.

That being said, I'm not sure I like the way France is so badly nerfed in the game - I think they went a little too far. The previous debuffs (where you didn't have the silly manpower issues, and research slots weren't a distant dream) made it more fun to play. If they want to ensure France loses to Germany, they could have done it in different ways - e.g. make it much more expensive in XP points to change template (or even impossible) until army reform is done, etc. I however suspect they've done it that way because good France players were starting to hold it in MP games.

 

[Bki]

First, deny the reoccupation of the Rhineland. You will bleed PP, but it will be worth it.

Go down the Little Entente path, add Poland to your faction and join the Ententes. In 1938, go to war over the Sudetenland. Launch an offensive immediately into the Rhineland. While Poland and Czechoslovakia occupy the bulk of Germany's forces, you should be able to cross the Rhine into the heart of Germany within a few years.

Make sure you have enough divisions to hold the line in the alps. You can also kick Italy out of North Africa quickly by launching an immediate offensive into Libya with 10 basic divisions.

You will want to prioritize production on infantry equipment, support equipment, artillery, CAS and fighters. Later in the game you can focus on building tanks and trucks. The Air Dominance focus tree, combined with the Battlefield Support air doctrine, is powerful. France also has a Ground Support expert who gives an additional 15% ground support bonus.

I'm not sure denying the Rhineland is that good for the little entente path, as you need those PP to get some experience to make some better templates and be able to research doctrines, and the stability hit is bad given how trash is your stab. Meanwhile even if they remilitarised, against AI an offensive into the Rhineland at the start of the war is very easy with how little the AI defend their border (and with it being occupied by Poland, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia).

Which path of the military focus tree you choose is ultimately irrelevant because you will finish the war before they come into play. And with most of Europe in your faction it's easy to defeat the Soviets once they come after Poland.

2) No Matignon agreements (!!)

I'm immensely annoyed by the fact that the Matignon agreements are in the game only as a bad debuff that you revoke as soon as you can.

3) That side of the tree is shorter, so it makes getting the very far left of the French tree with all those juicy civs and mils a more palatable option

It's not that juicy. When you take the need for slots and doing the military focus tree into account's it's 10 civs and mils with 5 focus.

Hmmm. Probably not. France gets huge amount of CIVs from trade mid/late game, so there is an argument for not bothering to build any at all, yes. However, it's not as if you have a huge amount of manpower to equip and field a huge army in the first place, so you don't need that many MILs. And since CIVs are so versatile (spies, trade for oil, building more stuff including forts), I would suggest building some.

You start with 8 mils (which is ridiculous btw), you really need to get more asap. You also don't have enough time before war for building civs to pay off, especially since as you said, you will get like 50-60 civs from trade later in the game as everyone buy your steel/rubber/aluminum.

Good luck. France is by far the hardest major to play, but it can become insanely powerful.

That being said, I'm not sure I like the way France is so badly nerfed in the game - I think they went a little too far. The previous debuffs (were you didn't have the silly manpower issues, and research slots weren't a distant dream) made it more fun to play. If they want to ensure France loses to Germany, they could have done it in different ways - e.g. make it much more expensive in XP points to change template (or even impossible) until army reform is done, etc. I however suspect they've done it that way because good France players were starting to hold it in MP games.

What really get me is the 8 fucking mils, though the 3 research slots are pretty ridiculous too. They should just force you to have shitty generals that can't get much better with a couple of exceptions until you finish the reforms. Gamelin doesn't deserve that level 2 anyway.

 

[ambien]

I'm not sure denying the Rhineland is that good for the little entente path, as you need those PP to get some experience to make some better templates and be able to research doctrines, and the stability hit is bad given how trash is your stab. Meanwhile even if they remilitarised, against AI an offensive into the Rhineland at the start of the war is very easy with how little the AI defend their border (and with it being occupied by Poland, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia).

Which path of the military focus tree you choose is ultimately irrelevant because you will finish the war before they come into play. And with most of Europe in your faction it's easy to defeat the Soviets once they come after Poland.



I'm immensely annoyed by the fact that the Matignon agreements are in the game only as a bad debuff that you revoke as soon as you can.



It's not that juicy. When you take the need for slots and doing the military focus tree into account's it's 10 civs and mils with 5 focus.



You start with 8 mils (which is ridiculous btw), you really need to get more asap. You also don't have enough time before war for building civs to pay off, especially since as you said, you will get like 50-60 civs from trade later in the game as everyone buy your steel/rubber/aluminum.



What really get me is the 8 fucking mils, though the 3 research slots are pretty ridiculous too. They should just force you to have shitty generals that can't get much better with a couple of exceptions until you finish the reforms. Gamelin doesn't deserve that level 2 anyway.

I have only succeeded by refusing the Rheinland. I usually build 7/2 motorized infantry divisions to advance quickly into the Rheinland (which doesn't require much xp to change the template). If Germany is allowed to remilitarize, I find that the level 3 forts and difficult terrain on the border make an invasion difficult. But I'm not that good at this game, so better players could probably succeed even allowing remilitarization.

I agree that the 8 mils is absurd. France was an arms exporter in the 1930s. I only build mils as France and focus the vast majority of them on infantry equipment.

 

[Mousetick]

It's not that juicy. When you take the need for slots and doing the military focus tree into account's it's 10 civs and mils with 5 focus.

Small correction: It's 14 civs and mils and not 10. And depending in which order one follows the "Invest in..." and "Industrial Expansion" and "Colonial Industry" focuses, one can get 18 civs instead of 14, as the "Invest in Algerian France" can be used twice. See this post for details.

Not sure what you mean by "need for slots", but each of the "Invest in..." focuses adds 2 slots to each relevant state, so there is no loss with the added civs. Except when using "Invest in Algerian France" twice, only 2 slots are added, instead of 4, so 2 slots are effectively lost. One does lose 1 slot for each mil added however.

This part of the tree feels like it was sloppily made.

I agree that apart from the extra research slots, it's not very valuable for the extra civs, by the time it's typically done when not turtling.

 

[noobermenschen]

I however suspect they've done it that way because good France players were starting to hold it in MP games.

I would think the Devs might consider that the hallmark of success, that a seemingly impossible challenge just might be possible with skill and practice. I regret not playing France before, they really had the most interesting of the starting focus trees.

 

[Bki]

I have only succeeded by refusing the Rheinland. I usually build 7/2 motorized infantry divisions to advance quickly into the Rheinland (which doesn't require much xp to change the template). If Germany is allowed to remilitarize, I find that the level 3 forts and difficult terrain on the border make an invasion difficult. But I'm not that good at this game, so better players could probably succeed even allowing remilitarization.

I agree that the 8 mils is absurd. France was an arms exporter in the 1930s. I only build mils as France and focus the vast majority of them on infantry equipment.

When the war started Germany had like 1 division per tile on the border so taking the Rhineland was pretty quick (then since the lines were wide open I took more of German land and linked up with the Czech). I had about 8-10 mot (I simply added a light tank battalion and some support companies to the starting mot template), supported by 16 10-0 infantry divisions (and 8 guarding the Maginot line).

Small correction: It's 14 civs and mils and not 10. And depending in which order one follows the "Invest in..." and "Industrial Expansion" and "Colonial Industry" focuses, one can get 18 civs instead of 14, as the "Invest in Algerian France" can be used twice. See this post for details.

Not sure what you mean by "need for slots", but each of the "Invest in..." focuses adds 2 slots to each relevant state, so there is no loss with the added civs. Except when using "Invest in Algerian France" twice, only 2 slots are added, instead of 4, so 2 slots are effectively lost. One does lose 1 slot for each mil added however.

This part of the tree feels like it was sloppily made.

I agree that apart from the extra research slots, it's not very valuable for the extra civs, by the time it's typically done when not turtling.

When I was talking about the lack slots, I was talking about research slots. You have plenty of building slots if you're keeping with research (at least in 43 I still was far from filling everything). But you're right that my count of civs gotten from focus was hasty. It's 8 civs from industrial expansion, 4 civs from colonial industry and 12 mils from the mil focus later, which needs a total of 5 focus. You can theoretically get more but that's not happening in a game you haven't already won.

32 factory for 5 focus isn't bad, the issue is that the payoff is delayed and you need to do two useless focus before you get anything. And time isn't something that France get.

 

[noobermenschen]

This part of the tree feels like it was sloppily made.

I agree that apart from the extra research slots, it's not very valuable for the extra civs, by the time it's typically done when not turtling.

I'm afraid I have to agree with that assessment. A close look shows the far left branch takes nearly three years to complete, and to get the most out of it the factories and the research slots come very nearly at the end. That is not going to defend France in 1939. What will defend France in 1939 (or 1938) is my political ducks in a row as far as stability and war support, and a powerful army in the field (Since my navy won't make a huge difference and my Air Force is going to get waxed no matter what I do).

I am going for a second try, and this time I am taking the Laval Branch to fix Disjointed Government. The extra .2 Political Points per day are already making a difference in mid-1937. Other changes:

- First 15 factories are always on Mils, with anything left over building a few Docks. Anything over 30 may be on radars or other projects. I would like to thank his Imperial Majesty Halie Selassie, Scion of the House of Solomon and Conquering Lion of Judah, for holding on just long enough to get France to Early Mobilization.

- I am shedding some research (I commonly do this the second time I play a country). No Hospitals or Maintenance Companies, no Sonar. More Doctrines.

- I am taking the Forts Branch of the Army tree again, this time with the objective of getting at least halfway down the GBP doctrines before the end of 1939, when I can likely use Army XP to rush the rest. I didn't like the way the Boches kicked around my divisions last time and I suspect my lack of doctrine research was a big part of that.

- I am sticking with 40 width divisions, which should be easier to design with fewer support companies, as the best way to hold the field against Germany without resorting to heavy tanks. 20 width may work nearly as well though, especially as the templates will be so much easier to edit, since 1) You stack a LOT of defense bonuses as France, 2) AI Britain helps out a lot and my ally's 20 width divisions won't be screwing up my defensive plans based on 40 width units and of course 3) I will have a lot more divisions, especially for amphibious assaults and other missions.

 

[Black_Shade]

When the war started Germany had like 1 division per tile on the border so taking the Rhineland was pretty quick (then since the lines were wide open I took more of German land and linked up with the Czech). I had about 8-10 mot (I simply added a light tank battalion and some support companies to the starting mot template), supported by 16 10-0 infantry divisions (and 8 guarding the Maginot line).



When I was talking about the lack slots, I was talking about research slots. You have plenty of building slots if you're keeping with research (at least in 43 I still was far from filling everything). But you're right that my count of civs gotten from focus was hasty. It's 8 civs from industrial expansion, 8 civs from colonial industry and 16 mils from the mil focus later, which needs a total of 5 focus. You can theoretically get more but that's not happening in a game you haven't already won.

32 factory for 5 focus isn't bad, the issue is that the payoff is delayed and you need to do two useless focus before you get anything. And time isn't something that France get.

It's 10 civs for colonial industry, not 8. Remember alergian france gives you 2 states, for 5 colonial states in total.

I actually think the revive the National Bloc focus is better than the Popular front side, because to go down popular front you'll never get the badly needed research slots, as it takes too long to go down to national champions and also try and do the left hand side. And the matignon agreement is flat out devastating, because you can't remove it. If you try, you get strikes (even at 80% stability!!!) that block your production for an entire year. It effectively ends your game if you try it, which means you're saddled with this horrific consumer goods and factory output modifier forever. The reorganize the aviation industry focus is worthless, because it costs something you dont have: political power, so you're not getting any factories from that focus as it is.

I think the best path to go is National Block to Strengthen Government, then the metropolitan industry route to the research slot (grabbing algerian france along the way), then the colonies focus. Doing this takes the same amount of time as it does to get to National Champions, and you've traded 8 mils for 4 civs but also are in position to now do colonial industry and get another 10 civs (it's 10, not 8) and then 14 mils+the last research slot.

I think if you go this route you should probably build mils from the start though, to make up for the fact that you do lose 8 mils early on compared to the popular front path.


Also attacking Germany during sudetenland seems pretty gamey, if you're going to do that just kill them during rhineland when they are even weaker.