Playing as Manchus has become way harder to the point where an AI Manchu is pretty much impossible

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

It's not just that Ming is too powerful, the Manchus are completely underpowered. The balance of power in the Northeast Asian region is horrid. The fact that Manchus are horde is actually a gimp because there are no tags weaker than them without first gobbling each other up. This would be OK if it weren't for the fact that it never happens. The mountainous terrain of Jianzhou, the historical winner of the Manchu tribal wars, actually makes them way easier to siege down than the other two powers since they are more geographically limited. So they either get annexed or fall into a pit of unity poverty since they can't expand.

Although Jianzhou marginally more developed than Haixi and Yeren, they border Korea which 99% of the time annexes Jianzhou since their cavalry is gimped in non flat terrain, making Koreans basically space marines in eastern Manchuria. I have never seen a game where this has not happened since CoC. Also, in the recent patch the Manchus ally other powers such as Oirat or even Korchin, which is completely insane since half the time Korchin and Oirat refuses to be a Chinese tributary and gets warred on. So the Manchus get dragged into a Ming war. You know what that Mings. Lo and behold Ming annexes Girin, now it is literally impossible for Manchu to ever form.

If Korea doesn't destroy Manchus, they get dragged into western ears involving Mongols and Ming. If they don't die they become too weak anyways since horde unity gimps them. I'm so disappointed that MOH didn't fix this situation, but after CoC with the alliance changes even player games have essentially become a dice roll of a dozen things that could go wrong. Even though hordes were buffed with changes to low unity events they're less fun they have ever been.

Assessing the amount of things that must happen in order for Manchu to be successful, it's no wonder that it doesn't happen:

1. A Manchu horde must core two other provinces in two other hordes to form Manchu, which means defeating the two other hordes.

2. Except the Manchus now ally much stronger powers now. I've seen them allied to Oirat, Korchin, even mothafuckin Korea.

3. If either Oirat and Korchin aren't Ming tribs, they will be DOW on, dragging one of the Manchus into the war. In a player's hand, you might be able to rush before Ming gets there, but this is impossible for the AI. When Ming annexes Jianzhou or Haixi that's game over for the Manchus.

4. Let's assume that doesn't happen, you still have hordes allied to Oirat, Korchin, even Korea. Whatever the case Korea annexes Jianzhou 100% of the time because horde units are absolutely useless in mountain terrain. I have not played one CoC game where this has not happened.

5. If by some miracle none of the bad things happen. Highly unlikely. Once a Manchu takes the two other hordes they still have to deal with rebels, and they suck at it. I've seen AI stacks just sitting in mountains taking attrition. Does AI still take attrition? While the rebels do their thing.

 

[KaiserWilhelmI]

I agree. I also think the Manchu's should have gotten a unique government type. The Manchus were not a nomadic horde!

 

[ShahanShah]

They should be a tribal federation like the new QQ and AQ are, it would suit them much better but it would also make the player play long as Manchu can no longer trigger the Nomad Frontier, unless the new manchu formation causes a disaster for Ming specifically.

 

[Agostinos]

I agree. I also think the Manchu's should have gotten a unique government type. The Manchus were not a nomadic horde!

For the love of God, please dont remove another fun horde. The last patch was hard enough to digest for all the horde fans out there. Removing the most entertaining horde of the game can not be justified with any argument.

 

[ShahanShah]

For the love of God, please dont remove another fun horde. The last patch was hard enough to digest for all the horde fans out there. Removing the most entertaining horde of the game can not be justified with any argument.

Hordes are changed because they are not suitable to remain a horde in eur area i.e Timurids are now a Iqta. There is also a argument for it: The Manchurians were not a horde, they were a settled people not nomads, and the tribal federation would suit them very well without the troublesome nomad tech malus and khanate succession issues.

 

[Meow of Meowowiz]

Playing a Horde in Asia be it the the easy way(Jianzhou) or the hard way was never easier than now as a player.

But I have to agree the AI hordes never get anything done and stay way to passive.

The AI is just the normal AI without any special triggers to help them. You can kinda crush your neighbours without any issue but nah I(AI) just wait until Korea attacks me and take half my territory.

You just never see a AI horde sucess to overthrow Ming but at the same time it's so easy that's not even funny if you play them yourself.

I mean as a player it's not even a gamble if you start as Jianzhou, - In like 30 years you have ming surrounded and can dismantle them at your wish.

The horde AI really needs some improvement in that term it's just waaay to passive and doesn't use it's OMMMPH even on very hard.

 

[Magnificent Genius]

The ideal solution would be to give them Tribal Federation, and change Nomadic Frontier to trigger on bordering Tribal Federation as well. Something like that.

For the love of God, please dont remove another fun horde. The last patch was hard enough to digest for all the horde fans out there. Removing the most entertaining horde of the game can not be justified with any argument.

The problem is, it just doesn't work in AI hands. You end up with Korea eating into Manchuria, which is just offensive.

 

[Agostinos]

Hordes are changed because they are not suitable to remain a horde in eur area i.e Timurids are now a Iqta. There is also a argument for it: The Manchurians were not a horde, they were a settled people not nomads, and the tribal federation would suit them very well without the troublesome nomad tech malus and khanate succession issues.

What tech penalties? It is very easy to stay years ahead of tech as horde.

Eventhough historical arguments could be made I rate gameplay higher than historical accuracy. Hordes offer a unique and very entertaining way to play the game. I easily did spend over 1k hours playing as hordes and seeing more of them removed is something i cannot accept.
Problem is that neither AI nor most players know how to horde. The way to play horde differs a great deal from the regular eu4 experience which in my opinion includes the new tribal federation.

How is the variety of the game improved when you replace half of the hordes with tribal federations?

As of now Manchu is the best and most fun horde to play.

 

[ShahanShah]

What tech penalties? It is very easy to stay years ahead of tech as horde.

Eventhough historical arguments could be made I rate gameplay higher than historical accuracy. Hordes offer a unique and very entertaining way to play the game. I easily did spend over 1k hours playing as hordes and seeing more of them removed is something i cannot accept.
Problem is that neither AI nor most players know how to horde. The way to play horde differs a great deal from the regular eu4 experience which in my opinion includes the new tribal federation.

How is the variety of the game improved when you replace half of the hordes with tribal federations?

As of now Manchu is the best and most fun horde to play.

There isn't a tech penalty anymore ever since the introduction of Institutions, it's the -25 penalty hordes take in non-flat terrain, which most of manchuria is covered in. This is bypassed by players who understand the problem but the AI is promptly massacred by the Koreans who take no penalty in the mountain terrain.

The biggest issue people are having is that AI Manchu currently stands minimal chance of being formed due to Korea, so either Korea is changed up or the Manhcurians are reworked to ensure survival.

 

[Agostinos]

There isn't a tech penalty anymore ever since the introduction of Institutions, it's the -25 penalty hordes take in non-flat terrain, which most of manchuria is covered in. This is bypassed by players who understand the problem but the AI is promptly massacred by the Koreans who take no penalty in the mountain terrain.

The biggest issue people are having is that AI Manchu currently stands minimal chance of being formed due to Korea, so either Korea is changed up or the Manhcurians are reworked to ensure survival.

So we agree that AI is the actual problem here.
My solution to this problem would be to remove the terrian penalty for hordes as long as they fight in their own territory. It should still apply in foreign territories though.

 

[bly08]

Tribal federation is an awful government form compared to hordes and I hope they don't start giving it to everyone. 1.22 already killed what was probably the best start for higher skill levels and replaced it with something anti-fun because flavor. Manchu is one of about three horde starts that are still fun.

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

Korea vs. Jianzhou is a goddamn joke. Not once in hundreds of years after the fall of Goguryeo did Korea expand into Manchuria.

 

[ShahanShah]

So we agree that AI is the actual problem here.
My solution to this problem would be to remove the terrian penalty for hordes as long as they fight in their own territory. It should still apply in foreign territories though.

That would be a good start but it would still not help them early with the wars they fight against each other and eventually Korea, lest we forget that most of Korea is Hills and mountains. I'm not a huge fan of tribal federations myself and I personally think the Manchu should have a unique government, but mostly the AI has no hope atm of ever forming Manchu let alone Qing

 

[DàbiànLājīdàrén]

The ideal solution would be to give them Tribal Federation, and change Nomadic Frontier to trigger on bordering Tribal Federation as well. Something like that.



The problem is, it just doesn't work in AI hands. You end up with Korea eating into Manchuria, which is just offensive.

Horde gameplay was never designed to be used successfully by the AI, much less the Manchus, it's so clear it's painful. It was created intended to be used by central Asian and Mongolian hordes where the main opponents were other hordes and small neighboring nations. They are also designed to DIE in AI hands. TO DIE. Muscovy is designed to form Russia and expand and annex all the steppe lands. The problem is that none of this applies to the first few hundred years of the game in Eastern Asia. The Oirat horde was able to bring the Ming army to its knees. Dayan mustered enough power to reform a power Northern Yuan. Further east in Manchuria the Jurchens were adopting Chinese ways of agriculture and already becoming settled peoples. They had ties to nomadic Mongols but were themselves settled peoples. What the Manchus need are a type of confederation mechanic that allows them to defend themselves from Korea or Mongols like Japan. They way Northeastern Asia currently works is just bonkers.

Reasons why Manchus never succeed:

1. Mountainous terrain in Manchuria renders horde units ineffective against Korea.

2. Individually the Manchu hordes are weaker than any of their neighbors except for Buryatia.

3. If any of the Manchus are annexed by a neighbor it makes forming Manchu completely impossible, especially if it's Ming. If Ming takes Girin in the very beginning it's essentially game over.

4. Manchus ally with other stronger nations like Oirat or Korchin as of CoC. This COULD have made forming Manchus more likely, if it wasn't for the mind blowingly stupid tributary system, where if any ally doesn't submit to Ming they will eventually get DOW on, dragging the Manchus into a slaughter by Ming. Ming doesn't even annex Oirat land, they just attack them and annex Girin. WTF?

5. The number of steps it takes to form Manchu and defeat Ming for the AI is absurdly hard for the AI to the point where it basically only exists for the player. The AI has no conception of gunning for Girin and Hinggan so they can gain free cores and claims. It has no idea how to micro horde units to defeat Ming. It has no idea how to deal with tributary status and how to get out of it.

 

[durbal]

The shock damage modifier for hordes is dumb and was put in as a band-aid for the OP hordes after the Cossacks DLC. It needs to be removed. I have no idea (and most people at the time didn't either) why it was ever added. Hordes needed a razing nerf and they got it -- that's it.

 

[ScaryRhinoNoodles]

I've been trying to do the Manchurian Candidate, as well as Qing of China, and can't do it because of a couple of issues highlighted here.

Jian is horrid with the Perisa update. And a couple of things happen now, that you didn't need to do before.

1. Haix is now the go to - Burya and Yeren usually don't ally with anyone. Now Haix is the go to, because it usually allies Oriat and that prevents Jian from using Haix terrian against Haix. In my usual game it's Haix Oriat and sometimes even Korchin v the rest of the Tribes. So going with the Haix seems the better start as of now.

2. With Korea looming on it's ass, Jian has to take the war to them and cripple em. This delays going to War with the other Tribes.

Coupled with the Mountainous terrain of Jian, it's impossible right now to play Jian. Jians terrain is indefensible. Coupled with being Horde. Leaves them absolutely horrid.

 

[otaats]

What about adding a truce between Jianzhou and Korea that would last, say 5, or even 10 years. Would give Manchus a fighting chance - to unite before the truce ends.

Or just buff Jianzhou to railroad them just a little bit in uniting Jurchens. Make a bit more provinces etc.

 

[ScaryRhinoNoodles]

Show Superiority CB on Korea.

Then, sit in Furdan and let Korea come to you, the AI won't take a -1 Terrain on the Woods, but it will sit in the Huncan Capital. It will get -2 Defense. 1 for Capital Defense and 1 for Terrain.

Just that that over and over gain until the AI won't fight, then siege down the fort. Sometimes they will try for land but it won't matter, they can't base race you.

In the current game I'm in, right now. I took out Korea and got enough of it, they won't attack again.

Now I just have to get around that Ming warning. Warned by is so broken.

 

[Crashes]

4. Manchus ally with other stronger nations like Oirat or Korchin as of CoC. This COULD have made forming Manchus more likely, if it wasn't for the mind blowingly stupid tributary system, where if any ally doesn't submit to Ming they will eventually get DOW on, dragging the Manchus into a slaughter by Ming. Ming doesn't even annex Oirat land, they just attack them and annex Girin. WTF?

Girin is Confucian while Haixi is Tengri, making Girin a heretic province. This occasionally gives Ming the mission to "protect our brethren in Girin" to conquer Girin since Ming is Confucian. Jianzhou suffers the same problem with Hetu Ala, which is another Confucian province that can create a mission for Ming to annex it. Girin is just a bigger problem because you need Girin to form Manchu.

The simple solution is to just turn all the Confucian land Tengri so Ming stops getting missions that cause them to annex Manchu land.

In a similar vein, AI Korea should not get missions to conquer Manchu land either, which should make Jianzhou last longer. Someone else tested having Jianzhou be historical friends with Korea (not historically accurate) but it seems to have worked.

To tweak the Manchus themselves, Jianzhou can keep overpowered early game Nomad units while not being a steppe horde, which would make defending their own homeland much easier. Haixi should also not be a horde, while Yeren remains steppe horde.

One last bit of railroading should be a Ming specific disaster that fires between 1600 and 1650. Call it "the great famine" or something similar. China suffered extremely devastating famines as a result of the little ice age, which caused peasant rebellions that would cripple the dynasty. Once the disaster fires, Ming would get devastation across numerous provinces as well as unrest spawning rebels. This tanks mandate without player involvement, and should coincide with Manchu missions to invade.

 

[Yuiiut]

Girin is Confucian while Haixi is Tengri, making Girin a heretic province. This occasionally gives Ming the mission to "protect our brethren in Girin" to conquer Girin since Ming is Confucian.

This is untrue-you will never see the AI take generic, none country-based missions-it only ever takes missions that are special and unique. You will not see the AI take 'improve our prestige', 'annex X from the map!' or 'acquire money'. What same culture/religion does is cause the AI to desire that land more than it otherwise would-hence why manchu was removed from the chinese culture group, in the hope it would reduce 1444 Ming launching full-scale invasions to annex the tribes.