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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

OrangeYoshi

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Believe it or not, despite that long long list of flaws he's actually fun to play with. Well, trying to get rid of "inactive" people is almost unforgivable, but other than that...
Even the people who contribute nothing but an occasional vote post? Do you not think the rampant inactivity in Corusant Nights was a bad thing? Even though that rampant inactivity led to you winning?

Besides WW is fun. Every game you go through and read is fun. Those games aren't any better than our games, Nostalgia blinds. Wait a couple years and read through our games now, it will seem just as fun.
Yeah, I guess you are right.

I welcome Ironhead back, and I'd like to preemtively say I'm sorry he didn't want to stay but all those things he said weren't true and I hope we don't end up with only 10 people willing to play the big WW game because Ironhead demanded that only those who have a history of killing themselves and other villagers uselessly deserve to play the game.
Or we could just leave accusations alone until something actually happens (which is very unlikely) and deal with who the wolves are.
 

joebthegreat

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Even the people who contribute nothing but an occasional vote post? Do you not think the rampant inactivity in Corusant Nights was a bad thing? Even though that rampant inactivity led to you winning?
There's a difference between the "inactivity" that is voting every day but not putting a hell of a lot of RP or "analasys" into the mix, and the inactivity that is not even voting for days. It's the GM's responsibility to deal with people who aren't even voting. The village can deal with people who aren't even voting if they want to, that's perfectly understandable.

So you are right that truely inactive people need to be dealt with and replaced so the game can at least be played. Still, some people are never satisfied, and demand a level of activity that would start to ruin the game.

Or we could just leave accusations alone until something actually happens (which is very unlikely) and deal with who the wolves are.
I think Ironhead is a wolf, I'm just trying to get a reaction out of him to see how much I can trust him. ;)
 

EUROO7

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I think Ironhead is a wolf, I'm just trying to get a reaction out of him to see how much I can trust him. ;)
Are we back to doing things just to get reactions out of people? This is strategy I used to great success! :D
 

OrangeYoshi

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So you are right that truely inactive people need to be dealt with and replaced so the game can at least be played. Still, some people are never satisfied, and demand a level of activity that would start to ruin the game.
Good. That was what I was trying to address. :cool:
 

unmerged(22072)

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There's a difference between the "inactivity" that is voting every day but not putting a hell of a lot of RP or "analasys" into the mix, and the inactivity that is not even voting for days. It's the GM's responsibility to deal with people who aren't even voting. The village can deal with people who aren't even voting if they want to, that's perfectly understandable.
Hey, sorry :eek:o
I even started to kill/sub out inactives after a few days, but there were some who came and voted almost always, but did not say a word other than that, what the heck shoul I have done about them? Besides, we were not overflowing with subs, and I consider autolynching a last resort thing, as it screws balance (but as you can see, I did autolynch 3-4 people)
Again, sorry, I know I screwed up, but thats all I can offer :(
 

marty99

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This is definitely nothing to do with player histories...
But I agree with joeb, the GM should not have the power to kill people who vote(but vote only), it is well within the villages power to lynch one post voters, which should be encouraged when there is no better candidate
 

joebthegreat

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JOEB'S HISTORY ON THE WW CIRCUIT:

WereWolf LITE:

Villager: 19(3 wins) Wolf: 10(1 wins) Seer: 2(0 wins) TOTAL: 31(4 wins)

WereWolf Lite XLII: The Haunted House - villager, WON. This was my first game. I yelled a lot and claimed to be AOK's rival, I then vomited in a sink. I played fairly horrible, but the JL this game was an unstoppable beast for whatever reason, and I just happened to be alive when it was all over.

WereWolf Lite Sishi-san: San Guo Yanyi - seer, LOST. I was still new, and was still under the diluted impression that strange webs of lies and deceit, mixed with crazy PMs being sent around, was the way to play this game. What I learned from this game is that kind of stupid activity gets people hunted/lynched, and for good reason. I deserved to lose this game, it was a learning experience. Any player with knowledge should NEVER send that knowledge to unknown sources. I told one person, I forwarded it to someone else, and when I got hunted the person I forwarded it to got lynched for "obviously faking a PM". There are just too many ways trying to string these webs can go wrong. Never do it unless it is an absolutely desperate circumstance. It pays to be patient in this game sometimes.

WereWolf Lite XLIV: Remnants of an Army - villager, LOST. I survived to the end of the game, but the wolves achieved parity. What can I say? I was still new. If I could go through it again I would have tried to switch the votes away from sbr and onto one of the people who was so eager to run the sbr bandwagon up. We still would have likely lost though. This game was one sided from start to end.

WereWolf Lite XLV: The Wrath of Papi - wolf, LOST. I discovered that wonderfully disgusting feeling that is dying while your team wins. We almost made it with zero wolf casualties, but AOK decided that the best strategy was to get me lynched so that none of the other baddies would look suspicious. Looking at how late in the game it was, with us having contact with the sorcerer, I'd have to say that was a complete waste of time, and we could have likely just outright defended each other at that point in the game without having to worry. Seriously, in light of a later game, in which the wolves managed to lose when they were one day away from a Stalingrad victory, I would say it is actually downright foolish to throw your own pack under the bus on the last day before victory. You just need to get that last lynch, so don't worry about being obvious. Take your shot, find weakness among the villagers (specifically one villager who is unusually suspicious, or one villager who wants a different villager lynched) and hammer that point home.

WereWolf Lite XLVII: Buffy the Vampire Slayer - villager, LOST. You ever been made part of the JL and then died too quickly for it to matter? Yeah that feeling sucks. Actually, I'm not sure when it was, but I think this is the game when my death is what brought snoopdogg to be lynched as a wolf. I sent him some kind of PM baiting him to hunt me and the JL knew about it, and scanned him once I died. It was a stupid noob action but it also teaches a good lesson. My sacrifice was unnecessary, because we had a JL going and all I really needed to do was mention my suspicions to the seer. However, in a desperate situation, you can bait a wolf into hunting you by saying the right things to him in a PM. Let the right people know about that PM and it can potentially be a saving grace in what seems like a hopeless game. I really shouldn't have done it here though.

WereWolf Lite XLVIII: Don't Go Out on the Moors! - villager, LOST. OK, the GM this game didn't keep very good records at all, so it was difficult to see what happened. Anyway, I discovered just how stupid people are this game. Lemeard claimed to be in the JL, I was in the JL and Lemeard wasn't, so I outed him and got hunted. Lemeard was a stupid fecking villager though. Seriously, every time some villager creates controversy that gets other villagers killed with no benefit I scream at them. They deserve their death, no matter how many times they call the rest of the village "idiots" they deserve their damn death. It happens with a surprising frequency too. Villagers should NEVER do things to try and get a rise out of people, it puts attention on themselves instead of the wolves. It hurts analysis rather than creating "healthy discussion", because the people arguing with each other are going to be the ones who die. In this case a JL member and a crazy villager both died for absolutely no reason, hurting the village.

WereWolf Lite XLX: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy - villager, LOST. I knew it was HannibalBarca and I was suspicious of Steed. One of the few remaining villagers unfortunately decided to vote along with them despite all obvious evidence that Steed and HannibalBarca were voting together and had voted to save wolves. This is when I discovered the argument "no wolf would be that stupid" and found out how retarded it is. Rereading this I didn't exactly voice my concerns as clearly as I should have. The tragedy is that if I had been more persuasive, and not been all over the place with my weirdness, I could have convince that last villager to join us and lynch HannibalBarca. The lesson out of this one is that it isn't enough to be right, you also need to be coherent in your analysis, so you can convince your fellow villagers.

WereWolf Lite LII: Wolves of the Badon Hill - villager, LOST. Full on baddie steamroll with no hope. I survived to the end, but of course so did all the baddies so damn. At this point games were taking only 10 pages to be complete and AOK was doing nothing but sitting on the sidelines complaining and spamming. I don't play Werewolf to hear the vets talk about how much better they are, or how much better games used to be. I want to play the game and listen to what the players actually in the game have to say. This frustrated me.

WereWolf Lite LIII: El Santo vs Las Mujeres Vampiro - villager, LOST. This one isn't memorable because I was the first lynch. Hey, it happens, get over it and move on.

WereWolf Lite LVI: American Idol Season 1 - wolf, SUBBED OUT. At this point in time I was missing a few of the lite games because of school, and I missed the deadline because of school too. Ugh, I was actually a wolf and we actually had a shot at winning too. It's a bad feeling when you feel you can play but you can't really play.

Werewolf Lite 111110: Blue Screen of Death - wolf, LOST. I subbed in for someone this time. I was a baddie, and we were going strong when I got in. At some point everyone in our pack just seemed to get lynched one after the other. Not memorable mostly because I was subbing in for someone and died really soon after. I needed to stop playing for a while as the last few games had proven my inability to focus on the game (damn you real life!).

WereWolf Lite LXXVIII: Second Mexican Empire - wolf, LOST. Well it had been some time. I died fairly quickly. School was still messing with me a bit, but at least I had enough time in my schedule to get lynched by an angry mob. That seems to happen a lot, and I figure there's no point playing.

WereWolf Lite XCVII: The Kalmar War - villager, LOST. It was my first game in a while, and I came back with a new strategy that I'm quite ashamed of looking back on it. Previously I was just a noobish player who didn't quite understand everything and made up for it with silly posts. During this game I tried the strategy of "be a complete bat shit crazy moron screaming all kinds of retarded things and doing absolutely nothing that makes sense" The wolves hunted me, presumably because they wanted a challenge and I was screwing the village up too badly.

WereWolf Lite XCIX: Snow Crash - villager, LOST. I got lynched on day 1, villagers broke a tie between two villagers, so there was absolutely no point to my death. Oh well, life goes on. (More early lynchings)

WereWolf Lite CII: The G17 - villager, LOST. I deserved this loss. I acted like an idiot all the way through. My "analysis" was crap and my actions were stupid. The thing that pisses me off about this game is my actions weren't really wolfish. I called for the scanning of a wolf early on and from there my votes were all over the board. As bad as I was as a villager, it isn't a baddie tell to say someone is suspicious and should be scanned. A villager should want to scan the wolves. Why would I want to be in the JL at the expense of catching a wolf? You can still get hunted in the JL. You can still get lynched in the JL. The faster you catch wolves the faster you win the game. No wolf is going to call for the scanning of his packmate and no villager should think it's acceptable to try and get scanned so they can join the JL at the expense of possibly finding a wolf.

WereWolf Lite CIV: Royal Rumble - wolf, WON. For the first time in what felt like FOREVER I actually won a game. It was a complete steamroll too. There was a long list of "suspects" and on that list was only one wolf. We wolves managed to steer until the last person left alive on that list was the wolf. At that point we decided to "change strategies" and the village was convinced that AVN and me were pack mates (my blatant defense of him got him killed). I'd say it was a beautiful victory. Definitely worth being my first victory in something like a year and a half.

WereWolf Lite CV: The Fellowship of the Ring - villager, LOST. I get hunted third night. This game isn't memorable to me.

WereWolf Lite CVI: Twilight - villager, SUBBED OUT. I guess that's what I get for letting school get in the way.

WereWolf Lite CXX: Tropa de Elite - villager, WON. This is the game I would mark as my coming back into playing. This is the game I was in the JL with EUROO7, which explains enough. At this point in my career, I am a very pissed off person. That's just the kind of person I am. I got pissed off at how the JL played, because they went for a total war scorched earth policy where we made JL announcements calling for a tie between two people who were villagers only because they hadn't been scanned. We didn't do that at the end of the game, we did that consistently throughout the game. I always listen to the seer, I do what I'm asked by the JL, but that disgusted me. Some real analysis could have won the game much sooner and with less of a bloodbath (and also with less chances for the wolves to hunt the seer)

WereWolf Lite CXXII: South Park - wolf, LOST. This game kind of pissed me off (oh what a surprise, joebthegreat is pissed off again). We were having the hundredth conversation about how the game had gone downhill and wasn't as fun as it used to be (a sentiment I disagree with), and so the GM comes up with some great ways to restrict us and force a level of "activity" that made this game feel almost unplayable. I was a wolf though, so I felt good just hiding in the spam. Unfortunately, I seem to have gotten good at getting myself lynched over the years, so I died anyway. Seriously though, the rules in this game were designed to force spam. That was it, and it wasn't fun.

WereWolf Lite CXXIII: Armageddon - villager, LOST. This lite game took up 53 f***ing pages. I want that to sink in. A LONG time ago when I started playing this game, lite games would get up to 20 pages if it was a long game with lots of arguments. When I say lost, I mean not only did I lose this game, but I got lost in the spam of it all. One of my early games only had 10 pages, this is over 5 times that! We talk about the community being dead and the games not being fun anymore because everyone is a zombie? People were complaining about that EVEN DURING THIS GAME. You know what. I'm sorry, but if your post count in one game is higher than every other post made in the game, I think it's you that's spamming, not the community that's dying. Really though, I couldn't play this game. The votes were so spread thin because of all the "healthy discussion" that there was NOTHING OF VALUE to analyze. I want to note that votes are what are usable for analysis. I protect someone with my vote. I kill someone with my vote. I can argue for 1000 pages that someone shouldn't be lynched, but if I vote a third party instead of voting for someone who actually has the potential to be lynched, then I'm not actually defending that person with my vote. "Healthy discussion" doesn't catch wolves. Vote analysis and JLs catch wolves.

WereWolf Lite CXXV: Gladiator Games - villager, LOST. I died fairly early. I was defending punkbob in this game. In any case, there was lots of arguments about how people were zombies and not talking enough. Oh yeah, and jonti and Lemeard decided to be meta gaming bastards against punkbob. The argument was that he only showed up and voted, instead of giving "healthy discussion". Well, punkbob may have only voted in the first couple days (as was the norm for a long time), waiting until there was somewhat of a vote record before making his analysis posts, that doesn't make him a zombie. If you vote, and give a reason, you're not a zombie. There is almost never a valid reason for your vote on day 1. Waiting until day 2 or day 3 before you make real accusations is not zombie behavior. All the crazy things we try to do on day 1 to increase chances of finding a wolf never work. We have the same 50% village success rate of winning games. We have the same chance of catching wolves on the first day. Attacking zombies and spamming pages worth of nothing more than talking and throwing peoples names around does not catch wolves. I'm getting pissed off just thinking about these recent games, so I'm going to stop thinking about it and just move on.

Werewolf Lite CXXVI: The wolves of Wall Street - wolf, LOST. I think I got scanned or something, a bunch of our pack got scanned. Looking at this game there seems to be a whole lot of vets, specifically vets complaining that things were better in the past (back when LITE games never seemed to go over 20 pages and hiding in the shadows as considered valid strategy). The complaints would make sense if they weren't trying to argue that in the past people were more analytical and active. Because they weren't. They really seriously weren't. That would explain why I seem to be getting so pissed off so much during these recent games. Ugh, they make my blood boil. Anyway, bad luck pack, let's move on.

WereWolf Lite CXXVIII: Dollhouse - villager, SUBBED OUT. Curse the military and their drill weekends. I missed a deadline. Not much I can say, I missed the vote early in the game and I was just hoping to make it through that rough first couple of days. The person who subbed me subbed out and the person who subbed him won, so hey, there's some fun. It's a perfect example of the kind of inactivity that we should be fighting though. Being in a game and not voting is unacceptable. Being in a game and voting makes you active.

WereWolf Lite CXLIII Take Me Out to the Ballgame - villager, WON. After a little while of military taking up too much time to let me play any games I got a chance. I subbed in and victory was mine! I guess the time away from werewolf gave me a chance to clear my mind and think about how I should actually play this game. Of course, I could have very easily lost this game if the wolves had decided to go after me instead of taking a stab at finding the seer, but that's the game. A solid game and a solid victory.

Werewolf Lite CXLV: Nahual - wolf, LOST. OrangeYoshi spammed the start of this game. His defense was that he only posted 10 of the 55 posts (that's out of 17 players mind you), and the game hadn't even really started yet. EUROO7 was trying to cut back on spam and be analytical (I know, weird, right?) And the funniest part of it all is, I blatantly defended OrangeYoshi with a somewhat late day vote change that ended up creating a TIE, and I didn't even get called out on it the next day. It's interesting to note that I got called out on baddie tells for trying to get someone lynched after the proponent of that argument had been hunted (I should point out there was good reasoning to the analysis that pointed to who I was trying to get lynched, the proponent of that argument never convinced anyone, and then he was hunted before he could get any further with it. Not proof positive but a good reason for a vote on day2), and because I named 8 players and said I could call them all villagers and have an 'amazing' 50% accuracy (which was oh so pedantically incorrect on a technicality). Even in big posts aimed at me I wasn't targeted when I had blatantly protected OrangeYoshi with my vote. I swear people's "analysis" is such fail. How can you analyze someones actions without looking at the vote, the singlehandedly most important tool of the game? As it turns out I was a wolf, and yes that one vote change was so blatantly obvious and damned me. I find it ironic that that one vote change was the one piece of evidence not brought against me.

Werewolf Lite CXLVI: The 2009 Brazilian Grand Prix - wolf, LOST. One annoying thing that we should hope never is repeated. The deadline was extended by 11 hours because not everybody had yet voted. I say hell no, someone is either inactive or active. You sub out the people who fail to vote, you do not give them more time. The worst part came later. Because of the extended deadline, the second day was only around 11 hours long. This caused two players who would have regularly been active enough to miss the voting and get subbed out. Because an entire half of a day was simply removed! This is a perfect example of stupid changes to WereWolf that shouldn't be made. When you say there will be 24 hours between each deadline, then whenever you make a change or an extension you should always give MORE, not less time when you're moving the deadline. It surprises me how often these game-ruining mistakes are made. That's a whole day's worth of voting that two players missed, not for being inactive, but for meta reasons. Anyway, EUROO7 uses the "why would a wolf act like a wolf" defense that bugs me. I understand stupid villagers act like wolves and bring suspicion onto themselves, but that doesn't mean we suddenly should never put attention onto people who do stupid and blatant wolfish things. Anyway, I was having a fairly good run, though I can see several serious baddie tells in my actions looking back on it now. We went three days without suspicion and it was a JL outing that got me.

Werewolf Lite CXLVIII: EPIC WW Game to End All WW Games - villager, LOST. In the setting OrangeYoshi said "I'll fill it out very well later". He never filled it out. That should indicate both how proud OrangeYoshi is of his work, and the actual weight of his work. The next event that happens quite often was a mistake in the roles (snoopdogg was given two of them). Then the noob GM approach to fixing it was employed, where the GM simply said "redoing the roles" and wasn't specific about how he would redo them. This led to people being confused because they didn't receive a second PM, when OrangeYoshi comes on and says "I know you didn't get new roles. Everyone who got a new role got a new PM. If your role is the same, there is no second PM." BAM. Terribad game right there. Utter clusterf*** mistake, followed by unclear confusing GM decision, followed by outright stating something that makes it easy to infer (based on meta game logic) that players who didn't get a second PM and were confused were more likely to be villagers. This right here is bad GMing. Instead of simply redoing it correctly he begins to whine about complaints about the problem, dragging his feet, finally doing it. And frankly, I had to post why it was a bad idea in the thread, so that we could have our correct roles distributed. I am not going to sit by and allow a mistake of that magnitude be kept, just hoping people don't notice the implications. And from that point we are warned that if this is ever talked about in the thread from then on that we will be instantly killed. From there he does a vote count of votes before the game has started, and decides he'll be coy and say there might be a prize for the winner. Hell no, no prizes, this is a LITE game not an excuse for you to do write whatever the f*** you want and have people listen to you. Poorly GMed game. You are a bad GM OrangeYoshi.

Werewolf Lite CXLIX: For Science! - GM, BADDIE VICTORY. My first (and at the moment only) GMed LITE game. I don't know if this was before or after my BIG game, but I did a much better job here than I did there. Not to toot my own horn, but (toot, toot) I think I did a fairly good job. It was a simple but interesting setting that gave players plenty of space for RPing however they wanted. I offered a small RP bonus (one "grant winner" would be chosen from the list of surviving players on the winning team, based on who had the best and most enjoyable RP), that encouraged activity but didn't force anything. If/when I start GMing LITE games again I want to be sure to keep this theme in my games. Simple RPs with a RP "winner" to go along with the game winner, just some lighthearted fun. On a more technical standpoint, this was a LITE game, so it wasn't as complex as far as balance or decision making goes. Still, I did some things that a shocking number of GMs don't do. For one, I updated the front page all the way until the game ended (and updated it with the winners). For two, I linked to each actual update on the front page. Third, I actually shut up and let the players play the game, instead of stepping into spam conversations all the time (I did just a little bit, but hey, not to a large degree like we see all the time). Four, for the most part I kept running vote counts going up until deadline. Fifth thing I did is actually keep the updates clear, made them within 20 - 30 minutes of deadline, and included pictures and actual role play based around the characters that were being lynched/hunted. Six, while problems did occur, they were dealt with quickly and via PM conversation. That isn't to say it was flawless. For one, several jokes I made in the updates were overdeveloped/over explained, effectively killing the joke. Second, there was a last second change of hunt targets that I missed (seriously last second, and between the vote counting, playing the other game, and preparing the update I overlooked it). While it didn't have a major effect on the game, it was definitely a mistake and is something to be avoided in future GM games. If/when I GM games I will do everything in my power to ensure they have the feel, activity, and sense of urgency from the GM when resolving issues that this one had. I'd also try to avoid the constant desire certain other GMs seem to have to get on and start patronizing and talking down to players for minor details.

Werewolf Lite CL: CrazyKart - seer, LOST. And there is no better way to frame my game as a good game than to put it between the mess OrangeYoshi made before it, and the mess Ciryandor made right after it. Let me state exactly what was wrong with this game in one sentence: Spies that gained their trait based on voting before the first night. There, now you know why this game was absolutely retarded and undeserving of being mentioned with other LITE games. Seriously, I was the seer. I got "spy scanned" by several people and they agreed, I definitely didn't have a villager role. My name got brought up constantly because of this and I was forced to fend for my life against stupid spy arguments. It ended up exposing our JL and the wolves hunted me because of it. Villagers with this stupid spy trait were acting like it made them heroes who could save the village, and they ended up damning it pretty effectively. Their arrogance destroyed any possible JL, and the wolves managed to win a long war of attrition after that point. You know, it sucks being a seer when the GM is going to introduce hidden traits that undermine the concept, destabilize the game. I could have had a solid JL. This was my first opportunity to be a seer and do it correctly. This was my opportunity to be at the center of a JL and make it work. It got f***ed by a stupid GM that wanted to make some kind of wacky change that would make his game stand out from the others. Here's a pro tip. My game was so active and enjoyable because it was the standard game, run smoothly, run efficiently, and it allowed the PLAYERS to shine and make the game fun. As a GM, you need to give your PLAYERS room to play the game the way they want to play. By introducing crazy changes you ruin that experience for them. This was an absolutely bad game.

Werewolf Lite CLI: V - villager, LOST. And here's another pro tip. A 15 player game won't be balanced, but it's at least more balanced to make it 3 wolves among 15 players than it is to make it 4 wolves. The villagers won this game anyway. I was the day 1 lynch. It appears the running theme for my LITE games seems to be that I either get lynched in the first couple days, or else it's a GM inspired clusterf***, or sometimes even both! There is a reason I was getting tired of playing WereWolf. It wasn't because "players were better in the old days". It wasn't because zombies were destroying how we played. It was because we were swarmed with GMs who wanted to make changes. Every single GM wanted to make another damn change. Every single GM seemed to think they had the skills to balance a game just by doing what they thought was the best idea at the time. To move onto the playing of this game as opposed to the GMing. I was the victim of crazy last minute vote changes that went all over the place. This strategy has never once in my experience worked the way AOK supposedly says it works. It only works when AOK does it because AOK is good at finding wolves based on catching people lying, catching people turning their arguments around from day to day, and catching pack behavior. It doesn't work because of the one technique he used in that one game that gets taken out of context and used in every single damn situation. It worked because AOK is smart and can analyze the game. He was good at catching wolves a hell of a long time before he ever used the last minute vote switch strategy.

WWL CLII: Welcome to Werewolf Village - wolf, LOST. There's not a whole lot to say about this game. It fell victim to the standard "KILL ALL INACTIVE PLAYERS" shout that actually means "kill all the players who aren't online around the hour leading up to the deadline". If you want to know why games no longer fill up in an hour, why BIG games don't get nearly as BIG as they used to, and why lots of people who played WereWolf stopped playing, even though they stay on the forum, then let me point you to the biggest culprit. We have created a culture that refuses to allow people to play this game casually. We have created a precedent that only voting once in a day can get you killed. If you add to this the GM temptation to make their games different and "special" in some way, you get annoying game breaking experimentation, mixed with mistakes, and applied to a player base that uses a meta ideology to lynch people who don't conform. I don't think the game is any less fun than it was in the past. I don't think we need drastic changes to save WereWolf. What we need is people to stop rushing to make such drastic changes. Otherwise this was actually a reasonable fun game, I got outed by the JL rather early though.

WereWolf BIG:

Villager: 6(1 wins) Wolf: 10*(2 wins) Cultist: 2(0 wins) Priest: 1(0 wins) Lover: 1*(0 wins) Thief: 1(0 wins) GM: 1(1 goodie wins - 0 baddie wins) TOTAL: 20(3 wins)

*(counting the lover turned wolf from Werewolf LXV The Werewolf Within)

WereWolf XXXII: The Lost Colony - villager, WON. My first big game. I played this after my first lite game, and the combination of victories made me think I was actually good at this game, which I wasn't. I stated that I felt I had been useless to my team, and for the most part that was true. My sentiment at the time was that all a villager is useful for is to vote along with JL outings and be fodder for the wolves. In a way that's really all that villagers were useful for back then. While there is something to be said about analyzing what's going on, you have to realize the JL is going to be years ahead of you, so it's unlikely you'll manage to pick something up that they don't know more about.

WereWolf XXXIII: The Island of Dr. Moreau - wolf, LOST. I was outed by the JL as a wolf. Not much you can do there, especially in a big game. Fun thing is throughout the entire game my name was coming up as a possible lynch, so I don't think I ever had a real chance of winning. I was run up as a counter to a StormSand post about how bad RPing was ruining WW, and then I was run up just because my play style was so random and weird. Of course the fact that I kept getting defended because "I can't read joeb his posts are too random" made me think acting stupidly was actually a good way to avoid trouble, and that's gotten me into a lot of trouble in later games.

WereWolf XXXIV: Le Morte d'Arthur - spiritually attuned cultist, LOST. I died very early because I made a vote on day 1 in the wrong direction. Not only that, but I had also written an argument explaining why I didn't think the person was guilty. People read into it as me trying to play a "no wolf would be that stupid" card when I was really just giving my honest opinion. Of course, it seems the "no wolf would be that stupid" card was being played so much, around that time that doing anything perceived as stupid was considered a wolf action. I was still fairly noobish so what could I really do? (It should be noted that, as a cultist in one of these earlier games, I honestly had no idea who any wolves were except one, so for the most part I was actually trying to do legitimate analysis).

WereWolf XXXV: Whodunnit? - cursed villager, LOST. I died because of my crazy play style once again. Well, because people didn't want to have to deal with my crazy play style really. It wasn't all bad for the village because they had lynched a cursed dude. I don't have much to say about this game, I was hardly involved.

WereWolf XXXVI: 'WartHogs' - priest, LOST. You know, reading through this I seem to have gotten a lot of people to say "I agree with joeb, but I don't want to admit that I agree with him. Oh god I must be going crazy." Wow, I don't know what to say. Anyway, I died fairly early just because my arguments happened to annoy the right people. Sometimes you have to let the wolves think you're not a threat. It's especially the case if you have a history of doing things that might annoy others. You need to realize that, based on the person making the argument, people may not be willing to listen. If you're actually sure somebody is a wolf and this is the case then publicly stating it in the thread is a good way to end up hunted before anybody bothers to listen.

WereWolf XXXVII: The Prince - villager, LOST. This is the kind of stuff that makes lite games funner for me than big games. I get nothing for a role, I'm stuck with that for the entire LONG game. I sit in the dark just watching everyone argue and I throw my vote into the sea of votes depending on what the JL wants or what argument sounds the best. I sit like that for a long time incapable of doing anything else with no hope of being important to the game, and then I get hunted on the eighteenth night. What can I do? I analyzed as best I could but really there wasn't much I could do.

WereWolf XLIV: 17th Communist party congress (1934) - wolf, LOST. Another thing about big games is there are so many roles and concepts that it's difficult to remember what does what. Yet another thing is that if you miss a sign up you have to wait a long time for the next sign up, which you end up missing because you're not in the habit of checking the game and don't see the new sign up (or at least, that used to be the case until we fixed that with the WW group). Anyway. I managed to sub in here but I died fairly quickly anyway, meaning yet another long period of no big game. (I should note to GMs playing currently that PMing players who have been active in the past few games is important, to ensure nobody falls out of the loop).

WereWolf LIII: The Masters of Rome - brutal leader wolf, LOST. A tentative re-entry into the game after quite a long time. I show up very late into the game. I act my usual weird self. I did this entire game through my cell phone while I was at military training. The JL was on a complete roll, outing people left and right, though before they had got to the outing they were acting strange and "outing" people on shaky analysis (it got some villagers killed). I just happened to be on their list of constant JL outings. That JL was so damn trusted there wasn't a single thing any wolf would be able to do once named by it. This game was a boring JL steamroll.

WereWolf LXIII: van Helsings Retirement Party - wolf, WON. This is the game that marks my rebirth into werewolf after a fairly long wait. Having looked through lots of games I realize Heimdall and EUROO7 were playing this game for a while, but this is the first game where I feel I truly got to know them. Heimdall sold himself out to EUROO7 for the promise of absolutely nothing in return and nearly wiped our entire pack out because of it. At the end of the day it was only my hunting a cursed johho888, the center of an improvised JL, that managed to nab us a victory right as things were starting to bleak. This is WW at it's finest, it was terrifying for me as a player. Of course I really... really have a lot of negative things to say about Heimdall AND EUROO7 after this game. EUROO7 was an outed baddie of the enemy pack, there was absolutely no way he could have been useful to our pack. His phishing for one of us to contact him for "useful information" was so blatantly obvious and retarded, and it shouldn't have worked at all. The fact that Heimdall fell for it, and fell for it so hard that he outed our entire pack, speaks volumes. The fact that EUROO7 was unable to use what Heimdall gave him to get us lynched speaks even more volumes. Definitely one of the most memorable games I've ever played.

WereWolf LXIV: When Zombie Games Collide - GM, GOODIE VICTORY. My first GMed game and it went fairly meh. There were "inactive" people though nothing really horrific. The problem was mainly with my failure of a rule that allowed something like multiple protections of the same person or something like that, and it screwed the baddies up. I made up for it with a bunch of cursed villagers or something, but really the goodies dominated this one, and it was due to poor rule balance. I just wanted to try something a little bit "different" to see how it would go. I now know why certain rules were the way they were, and I advise against rule changes unless you seriously know what the hell you're doing.

Werewolf LXV The Werewolf Within - lover/wolf, LOST. This game was silly. It's EUROO7 trying to mimic some kind of epic greatness that never existed in the classic Phoenix's game (the one where he won as a GM against everyone else). Actually, this game was much better than any of that old crap. I ended up being part of an early kind of JL and later part of the baddies trying to tear that JL apart. What ended up happening is my attempts to take down anyone who might have known anything in one night met sudden disaster, so I put on my pissed off face and started yelling that the GM had f**ked everything up and that this was BS and the game was convoluted and stupid. All those arguments were just me trying to get enough of an excuse to survive until every major goodie I knew was either dead or converted, but I got lynched anyway. At least I got to help lead the charge and vote the castle! (But seriously, as much as I tried to make it work I feel the setup damned any serious effort of a good game to failure).

WereWolf LXVI: Werewolves On Holiday - wolf, LOST. I don't remember much of this game. I was busy most of the time so I was quiet, so of course I was lynched. Actually the way EUROO7 was acting I think I was some sort of JL target anyway. But yeah seriously, not much happened here. Crazy people were crazy and it was sort of hard to follow.

WereWolf LXXIII: Coruscant Nights - wolf, WON. I had decided to try and sub in the lite game. I was ignoring the big game because it was in the middle of the game and I didn't really care. Suddenly EUROO7 sends a message telling me to ask to sub in the big game. I'm intrigued and join as a sub, immediately being subbed in as EUROO7's pack mate, unfortunately it happens right as EUROO7 dies. I had no idea if there was still a sorcerer alive and I was expecting a long hard struggle to survive when suddenly a stupid hunter, the enemy brutal wolf, and a sneaky sorcerer managed to all pull together and epic blood-fest of a night, giving me and Kathnar a surprising victory. Another example of werewolf at it's finest, though unfortunately I was only able to play through the last part of it. (Seriously though this win was the product of retarded goodies).

WereWolf LXXIV: The Quest for the Holy Grail - villager, LOST. I was lynched on the first day. There was a veritable f*** ton of pre-game conversation, based around a very stupid idea that we should have the deadline at one time, and the update almost a quarter of a day later. I still don't know how that registered in OrangeYoshi's mind as a good idea. There was an even stupider idea that the seer should have the ability to request the GM give his scan results to a different player, which would remove any and all doubt that the player receiving the PM from the GM is being lied to. jerard somehow failed to get it through his head that this was a bad idea. Also we were making pictures of babies getting launched out of canons and grenade launchers and rocket launchers... God this was the weirdest pre-game I've ever participated in. (And an example of why your "brilliant" new ideas for changing WereWolf shouldn't be implemented, ever).

WereWolf LXXV: Werewolf Rules - wolf, LOST(WON). Oh my God get out of my office. You're fired. That's it I'm done. I don't want to hear about it any more! Should I count the number of ways this game was just... wrong? There were hidden rules that weren't even hinted at. The GM sent my pack PMs that were outright lies. A wolf that wasn't in my pack was apparently able to send hunt orders for my pack. One of our pack mates was auto-lynched while a random villager received a sub on the very same day. To top it all off the GM was completely ignorant that he was f***ing anything up at all, and got pretentious as all f*** about everything. Had this been a proper game we would have won probably ten days earlier than it took for the game to end. Despite all of the setbacks (and every single setback was caused by the GM, not the village) we struggled in a long and hard uphill battle and killed off every villager. It was then that I had the pleasure to learn that the wolf, who had been in my pack since the start of the game, and who had sent hunt orders for us, was a member of a different pack since the start of the game... I could write a book about how many ways this game pissed me off. I consider it a moral victory at the very least, because damn it I played hard and wiped out the village with a team of people the GM had explicitly told me I should trust.

WereWolf LXXVI: Schools Out - cultist, LOST. I got hunted early on this one. Getting hunted early in a game right after you spend an entire game going all the way to the end only to have your rightful victory taken out of your hands hurts. It hurts a lot. I wanted that victory and here's a loss I can't do anything about. This is why you can't allow yourself to care so much about getting victories, there's always going to be some kind of BS that comes around and prevents you from winning. Still, it would have been nice to see myself winning the games I put that kind of effort into. It's funny because my original plan coming back into WereWolf was to not be such a weird insane person and to focus on calm, level headed analysis. These games made me pretty much snap. I was playing with childish obvious gambits by EUROO7, stupid inability to keep his mouth shut by Heimdall, one of the worst GM f*** ups by OrangeYoshi, and was surrounded by people claiming WereWolf was better in the old days and was being ruined by inactivity... in threads that were often times three or four times as large as old game threads despite having fewer players. *snap*

WereWolf LXXVII : Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea - thief, LOST. The thief trait is an interesting trait. It allows you to steal the role of somebody after you kill them, but has a chance of killing you. This can be exploited. This game gave me an easily exploitable opportunity. Two wolves from the same pack were hunted on the first night. Another wolf from that pack was lynched on the third day, and brutalized the priest. A rival was killed and the rival role was neutral, so I contacted the surviving rival and formed a NEUTRAL JL, the sole purpose being we'd look out for each other and switch hard to whatever side seems most likely to win. At this point the wolves looked likely to win, with a pack that hadn't lost anybody and a weakened JL. One person was outed by our dying JL, but he was saved by a stupid leader. I stole that wolves role and was set to win with the pack. The pack was submitting hunt orders every day so I figured the first pack had been wiped out fairly quickly. This pack started getting outed by the JL and so I realized, with one pack dead, and with this pack weakening, I could sell all of them out and use my thief ability to jump back into a goodie role. I explained what was going on to the village and used the hunt from my pack to hurt our own pack. I then explained to them that when they lynched the final wolf there would be a no-kill night because I wouldn't hunt anybody. I didn't hunt anybody, but somebody was hunted anyways. The village thought I was trying to steer them with my absolute honesty being the only wolf left in the game, and I honestly couldn't explain why there had been a hunt at all. I was lynched before I could thief my way into a goodie role... As it turns out both packs sent hunt orders in once a day and both packs could hunt every night... and there was one final wolf in the other pack... This game was it. I was done. A stupid rule change that we were given no warning about that was directly responsible for me losing the game? I'm not going to claim a moral victory here, because it was still possible my thief attack onto a good role might fail, or that that final wolf would hunt me. But the fact that there were cursed people getting turned on nights when it looked like a normal one pack hunt night, and the fact that I had no control over promises I made because of strange rules that I couldn't have known about, well ugh. I throw my hands up in exasperation and leave this shit.

WereWolf CIV : When the saints go marching in - villager, LOST. Of course I can never leave this game forever. After living in the real world and being pathetic I come back and decide that, THIS TIME, I'll do it right. Only good analysis. No retarded weird actions and messing around. No, this time I will do it correctly... and I make a mess of things and get myself lynched on the last day to lose the game. In my defense I was going to my military drills during one of the most intense couple days of this game, and it was my school's finals week. I was running on no sleep. Have you ever had that feeling while you're typing something, that you know what you're typing is both completely unreadable and completely wrong? So you go through it two or three times trying to fact check, but forget how to speak English? That's basically what the buildup to the final days of this game was like. What's hilarious is that I ended up being right about who we should lynch for the end game. What's not hilarious is that it was impossible to trust me on that because I was also busy making arguments against a person who had been outright cleared by the JL, and couldn't articulate what it is that I found suspicious about them. It's a theme in my games it seems. When I'm right, nobody wants to listen to me, but they can't be blamed because I'm acting odd in the game. Anyway, I deserved the loss, but the village didn't deserve to lose, and it upsets me because I know if I had actually gotten sleep I think we could have easily taken this one in the endgame.

Werewolf CVII: LZ 129 Hindenburg - spiritually attuned wolf, LOST. Definitely a step up from the last game. I was nervous to join this one because it was EUROO7, and the theme reminded me of the last game I played before I rage quit. I was pleasantly surprised to learn there was nothing overtly terrible about the setup. I was scanned by three people in the first two nights, and learned that one of them was the priest. In this setup cultists could scan, but sorcs only had one scan to use once for the whole game. I therefore knew I had been scanned by a priest, and two of the following three: a stupid sorc, a cultist, and a seer. If scanned by the cultist I, as a wolf, would come out negative on his scan, so nothing bad would happen. The problem was I was almost certain I would be outed by the JL the second that seer found somebody important. In desperation I got with the priest, had him out the one other person who's name I had received (I didn't know this second person's role), and outed him as a cultist, forming my own JL around getting the cultist of our enemy pack lynched. I knew I was living on borrowed time and so I was desperately trying to get contact with as many people as possible so I could feed our pack good hunt targets. I managed to get the seer (?), the seers apprentice (??), a witness, and I still had the priest. Our pack was loaded with information before I got hunted by the enemy pack that legitimately thought I was organizing the JL. I guess I never had been scanned by the seer though...? Maybe that cultist scanned me twice after I said some interesting things in the thread. In any case I feel my actions directly contributed to my pack winning, and I enjoyed the game.

Werewolf CVIII: The Paradox StarLeague - rival villager, LOST. The rival as a role is stupid. The rival as a trait is broken. I learned the name of my rival. We contacted each other, and knew each other to be goodies. We protected each other in the voting and just tried to win for our team. I understand that, if one of us never got hunted, we'd eventually have to have a fight to get the other one lynched, but it's very likely that one of us is going to be hunted, and we can save our feud for the late game (which would be more enjoyable for both of us than one dying early and the other getting hunted early now that he's cleared as a goodie rival). Basically I'm saying get rid of rivals altogether. It's a stupid role and it doesn't translate well as a trait. I got lynched fairly early in this game, and Vainglory made a complete turnaround and started completely agreeing with and riding on my strategy and analysis. He couldn't have been a more obvious baddie if he had tried. I have this feeling Vainglory is going to be our next OrangeYoshi. I hope I'm wrong about that, but he's just so damn pretentious and... wrong...

Werewolf CIX: Budget Crunch - wolf, LOST. Quick death in a JL steamroll.

FINAL SCORE:

Games played as a goodie: 22.5(4 wins)
Games played as a baddie: 13.5(3 wins)
Total games played: 36(7 wins)
Games GMed: 1(1 goodie wins - 0 baddie wins)
 
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Ironhead 5

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: reviews the last ten posts :

Ah, jeez. This is sort of what I meant. I don't particularly care about the endless debates about activity, inactivity, RP, vote counts, and unjustifiable lynches. To me, that isn't the issue.

The problem as I see it is that WW has (or rather, had -- I won't judge the past seven months) become so overanalyzed -- it is difficult to recapture the naive excitement of the earlier games. The first dozen or so games I played was like driving on the autobahn at the speed of sound with a blindfold on -- you dare not take the time to think, and rely only upon instincts. This was fun, even if it did lead to some spectacular catastrophes.

The last few I played was like coasting through a parking lot at idle speed with one foot on the brake -- you dare not rely on instincts, and every step you take is slow and deliberate with an overabundance of caution. You trust no one, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. Even if you survive the game, it wasn't the same feeling of excitement.

I would like to see players in each new game enter the game with bona fide innocence -- even though we've all played before, it would be nice to see a game where we all acted in good faith as if we hadn't. As impossible as this is, it is the sort of goal I think the community should strive toward.

And yes, I hated being Ironhead 5. I carried my reputation around my neck like an albatross. Which is why I created a new account with the user name "OrangeYoshi" ;)
 

OrangeYoshi

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....various nostalgia.....

And yes, I hated being Ironhead 5. I carried my reputation around my neck like an albatross. Which is why I created a new account with the user name "OrangeYoshi" ;)
Blasphemy! Impossible! There is no way I could be capable of this level of deception. Right? I mean...I am good, but am I this good? Nah....
 

joebthegreat

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The problem as I see it is that WW has (or rather, had -- I won't judge the past seven months) become so overanalyzed -- it is difficult to recapture the naive excitement of the earlier games. The first dozen or so games I played was like driving on the autobahn at the speed of sound with a blindfold on -- you dare not take the time to think, and rely only upon instincts. This was fun, even if it did lead to some spectacular catastrophes.

The last few I played was like coasting through a parking lot at idle speed with one foot on the brake -- you dare not rely on instincts, and every step you take is slow and deliberate with an overabundance of caution. You trust no one, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. Even if you survive the game, it wasn't the same feeling of excitement.

I would like to see players in each new game enter the game with bona fide innocence -- even though we've all played before, it would be nice to see a game where we all acted in good faith as if we hadn't. As impossible as this is, it is the sort of goal I think the community should strive toward.

And yes, I hated being Ironhead 5. I carried my reputation around my neck like an albatross. Which is why I created a new account with the user name "OrangeYoshi" ;)
:eek:

OK, that's a valid point. People overanalyze things in this game a lot. Like when I call for marty to get lynched and he goes into what kind of "schemes" I might be planning if I'm a wolf and why I can't be a villager because my vote is just so "scheme"y. Of course, it was all part of my scheme to get a villager lynched so the JL would scan me and the wolves would keep me alive because of how "bad" my schemes are. :p

Still, I think the tension in these later games has been what made them so exciting. The buildup to the final votecount, where sniping can be done, waiting to see if wolves haven't killed you knowing there's nothing you could have done to stop them, other than convincing them without even talking to them or knowing who they are. It's like a painful slow terror movie where every action you take can have horrible consequences beyond what you can ever hope to see. It's exciting ;)
 
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OrangeYoshi

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OK, that's a valid point. People overanalyze things in this game a lot. Like when I call for marty to get lynched and he goes into what kind of "schemes" I might be planning if I'm a wolf and why I can't be a villager because my vote is just so "scheme"y. Of course, it was all part of my scheme to get a villager lynched so the JL would scan me and the wolves would keep me alive because of how "bad" my schemes are. :p

Still, I think the tension in these later games has been what made them so exciting. The buildup to the final votecount, where sniping can be done, waiting to see if wolves haven't killed you knowing there's nothing you could have done to stop them, other than convincing them without even talking to them or knowing who they are. It's like a painful slow terror movie where every action you take can have horrible consequences beyond what you can ever hope to see. It's exciting ;)
But why would you say something like that? Are you trying to defend what you have told yourself to believe about Werewolf? Do you really feel that way? Are you just trying to bring back an old vet (who may have been here the whole time)? Are you broadcasting your wolfish personality outside of games into your everyday life?

Now, if it was the first, you are just lying to yourself. That is the worst of all. If it is the second, there may be a few people who think you are plain Werenuts. If it is the third, you would be a hero. Is that what you want? Immortality? You might get it that way. If it is the last, you are certifiably addicted, and you need professional help.

Lastly, if it is the first, that is bad. The second is normal, the thrid is wonderful, and the last is bad again. So which is it?

How's that for over-analysis?

I would tend to agree with your assessment of the current excitement levels, however.
 

EUROO7

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But why would you say something like that? Are you trying to defend what you have told yourself to believe about Werewolf? Do you really feel that way? Are you just trying to bring back an old vet (who may have been here the whole time)? Are you broadcasting your wolfish personality outside of games into your everyday life?

Now, if it was the first, you are just lying to yourself. That is the worst of all. If it is the second, there may be a few people who think you are plain Werenuts. If it is the third, you would be a hero. Is that what you want? Immortality? You might get it that way. If it is the last, you are certifiably addicted, and you need professional help.

Lastly, if it is the first, that is bad. The second is normal, the thrid is wonderful, and the last is bad again. So which is it?

How's that for over-analysis?
joeb lives in Utah.
 

EUROO7

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What does that have to do with the price of eggs in Timbuktu?
You've never been there, have you?

We should stop using this thread for discussion, it's supposed to be for player history.
 

OrangeYoshi

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You've never been there, have you?

We should stop using this thread for discussion, it's supposed to be for player history.
Llywelyn puts the post links in the first post, so I don't see a problem with it. Besides, this is about player histories. This is about the history of the entire game.

Either way, I'll follow the discussion in whatever thread or group it is in.
 

joebthegreat

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But why would you say something like that? Are you trying to defend what you have told yourself to believe about Werewolf? Do you really feel that way? Are you just trying to bring back an old vet (who may have been here the whole time)? Are you broadcasting your wolfish personality outside of games into your everyday life?

Now, if it was the first, you are just lying to yourself. That is the worst of all. If it is the second, there may be a few people who think you are plain Werenuts. If it is the third, you would be a hero. Is that what you want? Immortality? You might get it that way. If it is the last, you are certifiably addicted, and you need professional help.

Lastly, if it is the first, that is bad. The second is normal, the thrid is wonderful, and the last is bad again. So which is it?

How's that for over-analysis?

I would tend to agree with your assessment of the current excitement levels, however.
Nicely done, though I think you went over EUROO7's head. (Or did you get inside it instead?)

But still, why would I say what? That it's exciting to feel terror? That it's exciting to not know? That it's exciting to have to rely on your ability to convince people you aren't even talking directly to? What's crazy about that? It's an adrenaline rush without having to waste your time falling out of an airplane.

EDIT: If you want to discuss further just PM me or something, that way we can get off of everyone elses nerves.
 

OrangeYoshi

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Nicely done, though I think you went over EUROO7's head. (Or did you get inside it instead?)

But still, why would I say what? That it's exciting to feel terror? That it's exciting to not know? That it's exciting to have to rely on your ability to convince people you aren't even talking directly to? What's crazy about that? It's an adrenaline rush without having to waste your time falling out of an airplane.
It appears I went over EURO's head with the Timbuktu joke, but it appears I went over your head with the whole post. None of that was real. I agree with you that all that stuff is exciting and an adrenaline rush. I was just fake over-analyzing to be funny. :p

EDIT: If you want to discuss further just PM me or something, that way we can get off of everyone elses nerves.
Nah. I'm good. Just a big failed joke apparently. :p
 

joebthegreat

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Nah. I'm good. Just a big failed joke apparently. :p
Damnit that's you and EUROO7 that I've failed into convincing to have a PM conversation...

I'm going to start getting lonely :(
 

johho888

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About the nostalgia thing. Sure there is a rosy (or maybe bloodred?) mist around my memories of my first games. I remember staying up late waiting for the role assignment PMs and the tension with each update whether you lynched the right guy and whether you survived yourself. I also foundly recall the shock of my first PM received (from snoopdogg where he threatened to shoot me/have me lynched - me, a poor innocent villager!?). I think these effects wear off with time and games played. You need a game or two to get into things, then you overdo everything for another game or three before settling on "your" playing style.

In Ye Olden days there was also fun, tight, innovative or well-balanced games mixed with landslides victories and bad ideas just like there is now. I am pretty sure the RPing has gone downhill since I first started playing though but OTOH there are less appearent meta-gaming going on nowadays. I also feel the the average age of WW players have decreased over time but maybe that is just me getting older.

Usually the late spring and summer games are the worst (least activity, fewest players) - I'm assuming this is because we have better things to do than sitting at computers playing WW. But this happens every year.