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TheLand

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aglozier said:
Let's face it, HOI 2 has a very simplistic economic model. Rather simplistic calculations are used to model what is really a very complex reality. Ad-hoc resources limits would be a mechcanism to try to better simulate economic reality better.

Agree entirely. As it stands, you don't have to have much skill to avoid scarcity. And if scarcity does occur, it is crippling - a shortage of any one resource screws you. I'd prefer either a more complicated production function 'behind the scenes' - allowing more substitution between the different resources - or a model like Viki's where your military consumes twenty different resources and a lack of one of them stops or slows your production of a few unit types. The first need not be much more complicated but would allow resources to be scarcer without mucking us about too much. The second would be very complicated.

In terms of Germany vs the UK:

I find that ASW by destroyers/cruisers is very effective and that convoy raiding is also very effective.

I have lost whole stacks of U-boats after one or two encounters with destroyer-heavy RN battlegroups.

Equally I have found that a fleet of 6 Type IX squadrons under Donitz managed to sink 74 transports and 5 escorts in 24 hours.

My main advice after 1 game is:

- Build subs heavily. Start in Germany '36 with two or three very long (20+) serial runs of SS3 (Type VII). Keep building SS3 after you develop SS4 - they are still cheaper, particularly with the gearing bonus. Start a few long runs of SS4 as well, but keep going with the SS3s.

- Get some Naval Air units. They complement the subs well.

- Avoid the Channel. The radar stations along the British coast and the inevitable fleet in Portsmouth make it suicide for your subs, and for surface units unless the whole Kriegsmarine sorties at once. Until you have conquered France, this means telling your subs to Move to somewhere NW of Scotland and then Convoy Patrol down south. Be careful about their return journeys as well.

- Once you have conquered France, rebase a lot of units to Brest and Bordeaux. Much safer and more convenient, though the UK will try to launch air raids against the harbours; station some fighters there as well!

- Issue your U-boats Convoy Raiding orders in Bay of Biscay or Cape Finnisterre. Both are heavily populated by convoys ad cose at hand. Tell your subs to attack only at night to increase their chances and to break off at a strong strength level (40%ish).

- When a sub group returns to port, cancel its orders until it has regained plenty of strength and org. You should ideally have two sub groups to each area you are patrolling; one on patrol and the other recuperating at any time.

- Expect heavy sub casualties. You will probably not be able to withdraw if engaged by a superior surface fleet and it may feel like you are getting a very poor rate of exchange. Your only option is to have another sub squadron standing ready. Don't forget that a British Light Cruiser costs as much as 3 U-Boat units. Also don't forget that your subs are trying to sink high-value enemy units and often won't even fire at the enemy's screening units. After your initial 20 subs are sunk, the gearing benefit from those long runs of SS3s becomes very apparent.

- Use Naval Bombers for daytime convoy interdiction in those sea zones or the English Channel. Switch their orders to Naval Strike if you detect an Allied fleet nearby. They will inflict decent Org losses on you but very few Strength losses.

By doing this you will inflict heavy transports and escorts losses. You will also be wearing down the Royal Navy, which is forced into continually patrolling and engaging your units. Their Org and Strength levels will fall to the level where your subs start sinking their combat ships in some numbers, and your own battle fleet can start engaging the Home Fleet and winning.


Just some thoughts...
 

SickMonkey

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not sure if it has been mentioned, but one problem is that while for instance england and usa gets huge peacetime penalties on IC, the resource production is at full steam. of course the US are going to build collossal stockpiles when they only use about 20 rares a day.

the obvious solution would be to make peacetime effects extend to resources as well, or scrap peacetime IC penalties and replace them with an artificially huge consumer goods (and/or supplies, perhaps, though that might seem strange) demand.
 

egross

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jonnyincognito said:
I wasn't arguing FOR limits, agaisnt them and giving another suggestion. But you make good points. I understand the idea of a flexible limit, but what happens with the resources after you reach that limit?
joshua

Ah, good question, and I realize I left something out of my earlier post. (Hey, I had just gotten up and was eating breakfast, trying to come to life before going to work.)

If I was designing things, in addition to the above flexible resource cap, I would give players the option to build a provincial improvement that expands storage capacty -- in effect, building tank farms and underground reservoirs for oil, warehouses for supplies and dumps for energy, metals and rare materials. I'd probably price the improvement at 3 IC for one year for 5000 tons capacity, for a *specific* resource. You can build multiple levels of each per province, but if the province falls, you loose the resources there.

So, players can adjust their resource stockpiles in a number of ways throughout the game:

1.) Adjust economic and military policies via the slider

2.) Build more IC; expanding your economy expands the stockpiles inherent in the system.

3.) Build dedicated storage facilities.

4.) Aquiring stockpiles, IC and storage facilities through conquest.

Barring these things, once a cap has been reached, you are either trading off the unstorable excess for something else, or you effectively aren't harvesting any excess resources. Though in game turns the "unused" resources are "lost," it doesn't represent the actual wastage of a resource, since resource supplies aren't finite in the game; Province X's 45 metal is always there, whether it's being used, traded, stored or left in the ground on a daily basis.

Last but not least, (though repetitive, I realize) I have always thought there should be a penalty applied to underutilizing IC capacity. In the game it is a benefit, since your idle factories aren't consuming resources, letting your stockpiles grow. However, in real life idle industrial capacity is very bad business, since you are losing gobs of money through depreciation, overhead and reduced income. It is also very bad social and political business as well, as idle production capacity means reduced hours, reduced wages and ultimately unemployed workers, all up and down the commodity chain.

So, letting IC go idle should begin to acrue a dissent penalty. Let's say -.001 per day for each idle IC. For instance, I'm America in the '36 scenario and I start with (IIRC) 281 IC. I let 50 go idle (why, I don't know, but I do) -- that's nearly an 18% reduction in manufacturing output -- a very bad economic state of affairs! Suddenly, I'm acruing -.05 dissent per day. For each month that continues, I'm going to gain 1.5 dissent.
That will certainly give the government some incentive to stimulate the economy and get the factories back on line and the workers back at the job.
 

unmerged(1207)

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egross said:
So, players can adjust their resource stockpiles in a number of ways throughout the game:
.
.
3.) Build dedicated storage facilities.

Would the AI be smart enough to do this? Probablly not. This would become another edge for the humans.

Also how likely would it be for Paradox to add this? I think they would much more likely go for a simple change.

I vote for a simple cap based on IC and some sliders the applies equally to humans and AI, and which Paradox would be likely to do.

George
 

unmerged(40008)

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I found that building 3 Wolfpaks consisting of 12 x Mk5 & 6 subs will decimate the Royal Navy.
I had the RN down to 1 DD.

Wolpak 1 to cover the Gibralter entrance.
Wolpak 2 to scout the North Sea
Wolpak 3 (Mk6's) to scout the English Channel
 

MikeC

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The main issue with respect to Britain is that not nearly enough of the raw materials needed to run British factories comes from overseas. Mainland britain should have very limited resources and be forced to ship the majority of the resources needed to run her factories from overseas and from trade relationships from the commonwealth.

An example of the ludicrous situation was with my first game, and playing as Canada. The British were actually shipping raw materials TO ME!!!! Totally ahistorical. If the Atlantic war is to have any impact at all in the game, mainland Britain MUST be stripped of her resources and have them come in from overseas or trades which WILL be affected by German sub fleets.

Otherwise as one poster pointed out, forget the subs, build Tigers instead.
 

yiapap

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aglozier said:
Would the AI be smart enough to do this? Probablly not. This would become another edge for the humans.
Exactly!
As if the British AI is not severely limited right now! This proposal will undoubtedly make the AI even worse.
I do not disagree with the logic behind putting caps to resources, but I really think that this will criple many (if not all) AI controlled countries (Germany,Japan,GB come to mind).
 
Last edited:

X_MasterDave_X

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so much work for nothing.

Go and Invade UK !!!

Thats it. No more no less !!!

In HoI2 its so simple as it was in HoI1.

Invading AI-England is a cakewalk for germany in singleplayer. Even on "very hard". If you have 6-12 Transports, there is nothing who could stop you.

That is the bad news about HoI2........ :(
 

Spruce

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I've found out you can't hurt supply levels of troops.

the only thing you can do is deadlocking the enemy's industrial capacity - he needs to build escorts and convoys.

Well the convoy raiding seems to have a strategical impact and not a tactical impact. In other words, you'll only hurt the enemy when you've killed ALL of his transports - which can be very difficult.

I hope they'll improve on this! :p
 

unmerged(16695)

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in all this talk about extremely large stockpiles, i'm surprised no one suggested that strategic bombing should affect the stockpiles as well.

whether or not strategic bombing raids should affect a province's resource production is arguable, but does it not make sense that STRATEGIC bombing should target resource stockpiles/warehouses/transportation infrastructure? i think it'd make the micromanagement of running strat bombing worthwhile if it actually damaged some of the oil, metal, and rares the enemy has stored up.