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dhelmet99

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Bluestew said:
I doubt you'll get anyone in here arguing against limits but the moment limits are placed on stockpiles, I'll wager you'd have a host of people hopping mad about. You are proposing limits to fix the UK problem....what you may not be considering is the other problems it might create. For example, the axis nations must create a large stockpile for wartime or they are unable to even run their base economy. That is just one example.

While a nice idea on the surface, it seems you may be using a sledgehammer to kill a fly. I could be wrong of course.

Axis nations do NOT need large stockpile to run their economy. As Germany in the '39 scenario I have had no difficulty keeping the economy going by trading with the Netherlands for rares and taking Ploesti and Baku for oil (although during my ahead-of-schedule [Russia doesn't like you to take Romania, oops] Barbarossa the oil situation was tight for awhile). It is still possible even in this scenario to run up ridiculously large stockpiles as the Axis, though much more difficult.

Stockpile limits are urgently needed to provide some real impetus to a U-boat campaign, and to constrain the German player's use of Panzer's due to oil limitations. They have the added advantage of being realistic ;). This FIXES alot of problems. If you can think of any real problem that it creates let me know; I haven't thought of one yet. And making people mad doesn't count; the whole purpose of the game is to recreate, in broad terms, the actual environment in which we can pursue alternate realities.
 

unmerged(11633)

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Why should we hinder the AI when building up large stickpiles of resources is an extremely smart thing to do in a war game?
 

unmerged(39957)

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Gjerg Kastrioti said:
Why should we hinder the AI when building up large stickpiles of resources is an extremely smart thing to do in a war game?

It is smart no doubt but this isn't very realistic. All countries needed to boost their economy and get control on resources like Romanian oil for Germany

But France and UK were even in greater need of resources than Germany.

So for those who like HoI for historical aspects a great deal of realism is gone. Now I'm sure we can find some golden middle that satisfies everyone, both me who I like historical realism and you who like playability without too much realism. Perhaps there could be some events simply for that which turn situation closer to what it was. I mean any 1936 campaign got quite alternative outcome but certainly there must be some solution. Perhaps something that takes away certain % of Allied resources saying "warindustry eats more metal than we expected" and "mobilizing armies to stand against Nazi threat requires extra supplies". Something along these lines but with better reasoning ofcourse.

Concerning need of resources to keep industry running for Germany, don't forget every time you capture some capitol you get also nice resource depot. Luxembourgh, Amsterdam, Bruxells, Warsaw etc.

In first HoI you had to struggle for resources way harder and it made game more difficult, thus interesting.
Just my two cents.
 

talin

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Is the UK AI capable of ASW? Can it do an effective ASW campaign against German U-boats? If the UK AI cannot do an effective ASW campaign, a resource limit would be the end of the UK. And you end up with a more broken scenario.
 

egross

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As to blockading Great Britain:

Yes, it is difficult if not impossible to kill off all their transports and you can't do anything about their stockpiles. However, in my last game as Germany, when I flipped over to check out what was going on in the UK, they were building nothing but convoys and escorts to keep up with the destruction.

So, I considered the money spent on eight naval bombers well worth it to dictate the entire British production schedule . . . . (two groups of four naval bombers were killing an average of six transports and three escorts per day. . . .forget the subs!)

As to stockpiles . . . .

As much as I like accumulating huge stockpiles, it is a bit unrealistic. What I'd like to see is something like this:

1.) Base value of stockpile max linked to total IC.
2.) Modified by slider setter settings on command vs. free economy and hawk vs. dove.
3.) Option to build resource storage facilities as provincial improvements.

I doubt we'll see such extra complexity introduced into the game, but it's nice to dream.
 

unmerged(8351)

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I would just like to agree with the limited stockpiles idea. I think it has much merit, and could greatly improve some aspects of the game.

As for that comment about naval bombers...I really really think there needs to be some consideration of changing the convoys default routes as they defintely did sail farther out from the French coast and probably woudld have sailed much farther out if they were getting constantly harassed by naval bombers.
 

unmerged(15332)

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As human player playing US it´s no problem to pile up more that one million of Supplies before going to war (26 scenario) and also crush the rare materials market by buying everything.
Unrealistic was the name, when going to war you´ll have Canned Beef taking you through the whole war without having to devote any IC to can more beef for your troops.

/Sharky
 

Frontenac

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The fact is that submarines hinder normal troop transports for Britain. With an agressive sub campaign (about 24 subs in Sept 1939 and 30 in May 1940) the were less than 12 divisions in Britain when I launched operation Sealion in the first days of May (France surrendered after a daring ten day campaign) and only half were mobile divisions, and two of them were French troops salvaged fron the disaster... There were no Canadian, Australian, South African Indian or New Zealand troops at all. A dozen german divisions managed to occupy the island in three weeks. And I inherited the unrealistically large British stockpiles...

I still believe that there should be a cap on the max stockpile value, from one month worth of production peace time free market economies to up to six months (or maybe a bit less) for planned wartime economies.
 

Kyril

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My experiences in Multiplay make starving the UK nigh on impossible. Even if you start hitting out heavily on the convoys to the UK, all the UK player has to do is put a huge series of Convoys and Escorts in que, and for the grand total of about 8 IC, perhaps 12 or 16 if the Germ really goes out of it's way to stop your shipping, and your pretty save. Also, playing UK, I would love to get head to head with a German in Convoy Bombing / Convoy Raiding vs my Royal Navy. All those resources spent on denying me some resources and perhaps 16 IC tied up will not be spent on a campaign in Russia, so as UK I get to fight Gerry, even though I'm in no position to attempt a D-Day without future US help.

On the other hand, I find good use of convoy interception in order to starve non-home islands / territories. Instead of denying raw materials ending up in the UK or Japan, I much rather deny supplies reaching Singapore or India, or any of those Pacific island bases. Even as a reasonably experienced UK player, I must admit having had my excellent prepared defenders in Singapore on zero org due to a lack of supplies reaching them. Luckily my Japanese counterpart was still intimidated by the large stacks and not aware my troops were busy foraging for food 24/7.
 

unmerged(39957)

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talin said:
Is the UK AI capable of ASW? Can it do an effective ASW campaign against German U-boats? If the UK AI cannot do an effective ASW campaign, a resource limit would be the end of the UK. And you end up with a more broken scenario.

It probably is, I had Britain Navy on my back faster than you can yell "ALARM"!
:rofl: Compared to 5 escorts I killed I lost 2-3 subs flotillas.
Another possibility is that AI is just cruising randomly all across the North Atlantic.

By the way those African troops UK brings to defend island ... in one came I had nearly no operations with subs and once I launched Sealion there was only a handful (less than dozen even) divisions defending it. No colonial troops. Only one division of South-Africa appeared when I reached Scottland. Italy wasn't in war neither if I recall correct so it's another evidence how randomly AI acts.

I think too there woun't be any solution with this problem which would satisfy all equally, until with some mod like C.O.R.E. maybe. What I'm going to try is to edit savegame file once war starts and set supplies/resources of all majors (me as Germany included) way lower. This was AI might play more agressively. I know I will! :p
 

dhelmet99

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As it currently stands there are only two reasons to do convoy raiding:

1. Interrupt the UK supply route to Africa and Asia, and hence weaken those troops.

2. Manipulate the UK into wasting a large portion of his IC rebuilding his convoys. (Note that this is not really necessary except to enable his supply route as the resource stockpile situation otherwise obviates this need)

Neither of these was really historical. The first was to a limited degree but it was primarily a matter of eliminating the UK's importation of food and resources to starve him into surrender. By placing limits on the stockpile it becomes possible, even if unlikely, to get a situation where the UK's ability to produce more convoy's is reduced enough by the blockade such that he cannot replace his losses and will thus starve. As it stands this is NOT possible. It should be difficult to do this but it should be a viable Axis strategy for victory, not just as an annoyance.

Edit: Another important impact of stockpile limits is to force the Axis player to consider resources in the formulation of his grand strategy. The Axis must gain access to vital materials (oil and rares) by conquest and not by ridiculous pre-war stockpiles. BOTH of these effects I consider gains.
 

jonnyincognito

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I think everyone is talking about a bit of a bandaid for a problem. If you think the ability to create stockpiles is unrealistic, then instead of making an arbitrary limit (also unrealistic in my mind) the real solution is to cut back the amount of resources available in the game. The reason huge stockpiles exist is because there's more resources available then your countries IC can use. To limit stockpiles on the basis that a country wouldn't do so when not at war or not aggressive like Germany would also imply that you should limit production of military units for the same thing.

Why would I stockpile resources when there's no war going on?
Why would I have a massive military buildup if there's no war going on?

Exactly how the US ended up caught with our pants down. But that's history, this is a game. Players want to be able to do as they please without decisions being forced on them. If I want to build up a huge military and vast resource reserves in preperation for a war I believe is coming and I'm more then likely to cause, then I should be able to.

If you limit the resources, you limit the ability to stockpile, but you don't make it impossible. By limiting resources, you make it the players choice, not something forced on them. He can either produce supplies to trade for more resources, turn off his IC to save up resources, or just risk it and keep his industry at full steam until war breaks out and hope that he's lucky enough to keep the resources flowing back home. This would probably be more agreeable to most players, but you'll still have those that are hopping mad.


Joshua
 
Last edited:

unmerged(17664)

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Im playing Brazil in the Axis.My electro subs with max sub doctrines have small victories.Improved naval bombers had massive impact. Italy took Suez and marched to Liberia and Congo. My convoy interdiction cut the supplies of UK armies in Afrika and Asia. Of course Japan is at peace with starting political geography reinstated. Its 42 and UK has huge stockpiles...except for oil.

Reduced resources

Conquored resources are reduced. The world total output falls as the war goes on. World IC continues to rise until 40-42 when it stabilizes.(this is based more on opinion than actual playtesting :) )Better tech,building factories vs occupied factories.Lets be careful with suggesting reducing resources.

stockpile limits

So what can a Dove/Democracy do with excess resources? Will I have to search out countries with storage capacity to trade with?All those resources just waisted. :eek:

Just trying to play devils advocate


Mort
 

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I am not even sure supplies rule applies to the AI, I think they can maintain their org regardless of whether they are supplied so it really proves how worthless sub warfare against comp is.
 

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Frontenac said:
The fact is that submarines hinder normal troop transports for Britain. With an agressive sub campaign (about 24 subs in Sept 1939 and 30 in May 1940) the were less than 12 divisions in Britain when I launched operation Sealion in the first days of May (France surrendered after a daring ten day campaign) and only half were mobile divisions, and two of them were French troops salvaged fron the disaster...


Whoah! You mean the AI actually had some French div's evacuate to the UK, just like in the historical Dunkirk? Thats awsome! :)
 

Fawr

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I'm not keen on the fixed stockpile limit like in HOI1. That made you start to do silly things to preserver your stockpiles (like as Germany you start traiding Coal for Oil/Rubber at a rate worse than your conversion rate to allow you to have full stockpiles in everything when the war starts).

OTOH I think that IC that isn't being used for "war purposes" should still consume resources. That way you will stop the UK/US stockpiling stupid amounts of resources while its IC is so limited in the early part of the game.
 

egross

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jonnyincognito said:
If you thing the ability to create stockpiles is unrealistic, then instead of making an arbitrary limit (also unrealistic in my mind) the real solution is to cut back the amount of resources available in the game. The reason huge stockpiles exist is because there's more resources available then your countries IC can use. Joshua

The ability to create stockpiles isn't unrealistic -- nations do it all the time, and have through history. In large industrial economies stockpiles resource stockpiles exist due to at least three factors:

1.) intentional decisions by the government to stockpile essential resources for emergencies, military or otherwise

2.) decisions by private industry to maintain stockpiles as cushions against production demands, uncertain supply or fluctuations in resource cost

3.) the "pipeline" effect -- there is always a certain amount of resources in the process of transit and/or processing between supplier and user. The longer the distance of transit, the larger the stockpile.

However, unlimited stockpiles is another thing entirely. There are natural limits on the ability to stockpile resources, the two most basic being storage facilites and inventory economics.

The question is, what is an "arbitrary limit" and what is reasonable? Perhaps unanswerable. In HOI1 the 100,000 cap was definitely arbitrary, and was just as unreasonable as no cap at all.

Reducing the amount of available resources isn't really realistic, either. In fact, a good argument could be made in HOI2 that there aren't enough resources available -- many areas that produced resources in real life during the period have no resource values at all in the game. Also in RL the question wasn't always about resources not being available, but about not having the need or ability to gather and process them. For example, in the US there was far more coal and iron ore and other metals lying around available for mining than there was ever a need to mine (and this is still the case). They could have been tapped if necessary, but it wasn't necessary. Since in the game the resource value of a province is automatically gathered at full value in your home territory whether you need it or not, there really isn't a way to represent the capacity of actual gathering/production and the choices that attend it. I'd love to see a game system where the player was allowed to make some choices about expanding or contracting resource production, with an attendant cost. Say, some factor to dissent for failure to gather at full capacity (unemployment) and the option, with appropriate expenditure, of increasing resource production in a given province by expanding mines, wells, power plants, etc.

But, given game play decisions, this level of detail isn't supported or likely. That's why, IMHO, some flexible system of determing resource stockpiles actually seems like the least arbitrary solution. I'm thinking something like this:

1.) Each point of base IC gives you 1000 tons of inate stockpile

2.) For each point from center towards "free market" you have a -.05 modifier; for each point from center towards "planned" you have a +.05 modifier. This represents the tendency of free market economics to reduce excess inventory and the ability of planned economies to require greater stockpiles.

3.) For each point from center towards "hawk" you get a +.10 modifier and for each point towards "dove" you get a -.10 modifier. This represents government intervention to prepare strategic stockpiles for the advent of war.

So, your actual stockpile may fluctuate, but within a range of base IC x 1000 x -.75 to +.75 depending on your economic and military policies.

So, for example, a pure free market economy with extremely dovish policies would have a relatively small stockpile, while belligerent planned economies could accumulate a much larger one.

Anyway, the whole exercise is probably just academic, but at least it's fun to discuss.

So,
 

jonnyincognito

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egross said:
The ability to create stockpiles isn't unrealistic -- nations do it all the time, and have through history. In large industrial economies stockpiles resource stockpiles exist due to at least three factors...

I wasn't arguing FOR limits, agaisnt them and giving another suggestion. But you make good points. I understand the idea of a flexible limit, but what happens with the resources after you reach that limit?


Joshua
 

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jonnyincognito said:
I wasn't arguing FOR limits, agaisnt them and giving another suggestion. But you make good points. I understand the idea of a flexible limit, but what happens with the resources after you reach that limit?

Joshua

The resources, in effect, aren't mined and stay in the ground. This simulates production being scaled back to meet the demand for the resources.

Let's face it, HOI 2 has a very simplistic economic model. Rather simplistic calculations are used to model what is really a very complex reality. Ad-hoc resources limits would be a mechcanism to try to better simulate economic reality better.

Let's go back to basics. Why have resources in HOI2? They are in the game because during WWII many countries had real resource shortages. These lead to war in the case of Japan. Shortages hampered the Axis war effort. The game's design is an attemp to simulate this.

If unlimited resource stock piles has greatly reduced or eliminated resource shortages, then that defeats the purpose having resources in the first place. This should be addressed.

One final note. Compared the starting recources levels in the 1939 scenario to those reach in 1939 in the 1936 scenario. I bet they aren't eveny close. You would think they should be roughly the same if the scenario designs and the resource calculations were resonable.

George