Planetary Habitability Overhaul

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Seomis

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Oh, and why don't you make a mod out of this model? You could even give Humans a Gaia preference (the Gaia habitability trait already exists in vanilla).
 

PAnZuRiEL

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Oh, and why don't you make a mod out of this model? You could even give Humans a Gaia preference (the Gaia habitability trait already exists in vanilla).
I've already argued that "Gaia preference" shouldn't exist because no species is equally well-adapted to every single climate on a Gaia world.
 

Sopbucket

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I wouldn't hold my breath for getting this implemented in Banks, but it's a pretty interesting idea. I agree that Gaia worlds as implemented go against common sense, and I like that this gives a fitting explanation for them. It also brings back the climate wheel, which I like for gameplay reasons, because you can generally get the pops you need to settle all the planets in your borders just through migration treaties. I think the problem with the old wheel was that they wanted to put more extreme habitats on it as well (arctic, desert), but they didn't really have a place, which led to oddities like Ocean and Arctic being similar. Here they do.

You can just get habitability from the interface while playing, so I wouldn't worry about the system for determining habitability being too complicated. I don't think it is in any case - it's just -20% for each step from the starting hex, and an additional -20% for the extreme habitats on the points.
 
Last edited:

zukodark

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Look, frankly the most important thing in terms of actual planetary habitability isn't temperature or moisture, but chemistry. How much oxygen is in the atmosphere? How much hydrogen and nitrogen? How abundant is carbon? A planet might be "temperate" and "moist" but it's no good to us if all the "moisture" is in the form of hydrocarbons like petroleum and ethanol. But a system based on chemistry is too complicated for Stellaris and would mean far less habitability in general as well as mandatory terraforming. In reality, building orbital habitats is much easier than colonising the surfaces of other planets.

The thing is, making the system much more realistic is not the only way to go. Going by prior feedback, it is not really the most popular either. It being "too complicated" isn't the only reason it is not in the game.

The main problems with realism is visual representation, possible removal of flavor and how to balance it in a more interesting manner. I do however think there are ways to make it better than it currently is.

There are three main features people believe the habitability system should have: flavor/options, interesting balance and/or realism. It is quite probable any system won't satisfy all of these, and it might have to take a stance. Still, a downgrade in any of these regards feels terrible for a lot of people.

The goal of the system should probably be to make one of the three areas awesome, while keeping the other two at a similar or better level than the current one. I have yet seen a proposed system that fit that.
 

zukodark

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I wouldn't hold my breath for getting this implemented in Banks, but it's a pretty interesting idea. I agree that Gaia worlds as implemented go against common sense, and I like that this gives a fitting explanation for them. It also brings back the climate wheel, which I like for gameplay reasons, because you can generally get the pops you need to settle all the planets in your borders just through migration treaties. I think the problem with the old wheel was that they wanted to put more extreme habitats on it as well (arctic, desert), but they didn't really have a place, which led to oddities like Ocean and Arctic being similar. Here they do.

You can just get habitability from the interface while playing, so I wouldn't worry about the system for determining habitability being too complicated. I don't think it is in any case - it's just -20% for each step from the starting hex, and an additional -20% for the extreme habitats on the points.
I don't see how a world couldn't be terraformed or by extreme coincidence be naturally formed in such a a manner that it would itself adapt to any life forms. I think that is what it is.
 

genrtul

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Try drawing a graph for the current system. You get something like:
image.png

With your dry, temperate and wet worlds around the edges and an empty node in the middle necessary to make all the habitability consistent (Your homeworld type has 80% habitability, every step is -20%). All that's needed to make Gaia worlds fit is to give them 60% habitability for all species, in other words put them into that middle node. It makes sense, it's a planet that's decent for everyone, but not great for anyone. It also makes it really good for xenophiles and poor for isolationist builds, which is IMO more interesting than just being amazing for everyone.

Actually, as a modification, if you wanted to still have Gaia worlds being a big reward for everyone you could just weigh them to have more tiles and less tile blockers. That's a bigger factor for how good a planet is than habitability, and I think such weighing is done in the current version of the game anyway.
 
Last edited:

Sopbucket

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I don't see how a world couldn't be terraformed or by extreme coincidence be naturally formed in such a a manner that it would itself adapt to any life forms. I think that is what it is.

I never thought of it that way, a planet that cares for each of it's inhabitants, and may even have a consciousness of its own! It makes the word "Gaia" even more appropriate. Honestly, they should put something like that in the flavor text, it makes a lot more sense than an "ideal" planet.

With your dry, temperate and wet worlds around the edges and an empty node in the middle necessary to make all the habitability consistent (Your homeworld type has 80% habitability, every step is -20%). All that's needed to make Gaia worlds fit is to give them 60% habitability for all species, in other words put them into that middle node. It makes sense, it's a planet that's decent for everyone, but not great for anyone. It also makes it really good for xenophiles and poor for isolationist builds, which is IMO more interesting than just being amazing for everyone.

The issue with the current system is that it's too much of a stretch to imagine a "common ground" planet when the three main climate types are completely inhospitable to one another. At least for me it is. The actual habitability of such a planet doesn't really matter as much as that - I think changing Gaia planets to 60% is just going to make them less special without making them any more realistic.

The proposed system makes more sense in this regard because the common planet types are more similar to one another. I wouldn't recommend changing a system just to get the interpretation right, but it is a nice bonus.
 
Last edited:

genrtul

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The issue with the current system is that it's too much of a stretch to imagine a "common ground" planet when the three main climate types are completely inhospitable to one another. At least for me it is. The actual habitability of such a planet doesn't really matter as much as that - I think changing Gaia planets to 60% is just going to make them less special without making them any more realistic.

The proposed system makes more sense in this regard because the common planet types are more similar to one another. I wouldn't recommend changing a system just to get the interpretation right, but it is a nice bonus.

It's a stretch to imagine a world that's better than the perfect world for any given species, for every species. It's much easier to imagine a world that has many different environments on it. I mean, I guess a place like Earth would be considered a Gaia planet. I imagine humanity would do better on a planet with more coastline than Earth has, so that would be continental.
 

The Founder

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I think the current System is close enough.
Any more detaield graph would not realy add alot and just cause add complexity without adding any depth.

I've already argued that "Gaia preference" shouldn't exist because no species is equally well-adapted to every single climate on a Gaia world.
Actually the opposite happens. Gaia/Ringworld Habitability gives no habitabiliy anywhere else. That habitabilty is by far the worst one, the life is the most frail of all. It is like "super mega not-adapted to anything".
Tombworld Habitability has secondary Habitability value on all other climates.