Planet design leads to sameness everywhere

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Shadowstrike

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One thing I've noticed upon getting back into Stellaris with the new beta is how identical and non-distinctive each planet actually is. The only difference between any two planets lie in size, climate type, and district numbers (plus the occasional modifier and rare resource deposit). As a result, after the early game, we simply choose a designation and then develop out each planet as needed. There's a meta for an alloy planet, a CG planet, a research planet, a fortress planet, etc. But there's literally nothing that differentiates between any two alloy planets - we develop them the same way, because that's what gives us the maximum number of alloys. It's like the whole planetary development system breaks down to selecting a planet designation, and then slowly building it into its final form, while not running too far ahead of upkeep costs. I'd like to point out that I'm not nostalgic for the tile system, either. The issue with the tile system was that every tile was basically predefined based on its bonuses, so the optimal path was to build the building that fit the tile bonus. In fact, it was so straightforward and the sector AI so likely to mess up that I remember just building out every single building on a new colony when I founded it. What both of these systems lacks is any uniqueness to each planet, after you've selected what kind of planet you want it to be.

I can't help but feel like this compares unfavorably to other games where you have centers that constitute most of your production. The cities in Civilization for instance feel more distinct because there's a lot more to each one. Civ6 focused on the placement of districts that gave bonuses to advanced resources - so you wanted to maximize those bonuses. A spot with a great bonus for science would be a nice find, but it also didn't mean that it would crowd out other. But you had strategic choices in exactly where to place each city and how it might interact with your other nearby cities. Now a whole part of this is that Civ has a game map where all cities have a place in relation to each other, whereas each planet in Stellaris is essentially a distinct island. But even Master of Orion's system where each planet had different amounts of productivity for food/minerals kind of had more character, because not every job was the same everywhere.

I'm not sure how Stellaris' planets can be changed to make them more distinctive than just being "the science planet" or "the alloy planet", but I feel like that's a direction that's worth moving towards. One path that seems interesting to me would be to make ethics and species diversity on a single planet more important to the gameplay experience. It might mean something if your alloy planet was full of materialists in a spiritualist empire, for instance (and thus more vulnerable to separatism), or if the population had internal tensions because you just resettled a bunch of aliens there to boost alloy production. More planetary events would of course be interesting - the underground civilization, for instance, adds something to the uniqueness of a planet. But they can't just be flat modifiers or things without strategic choices, because all that does is push the player to make a planet "the alloy planet" just because it has a +5% bonus to alloy production. Perhaps a different approach might be to include some sort of simulation of where resources are coming from and moving to, rather than just being a singular national stockpile. Your alloy planet might get a boost if it is fewer jumps away from your mining planets, or your research planet might get a boost for being closer to a materialist neighbor. Or maybe each planet has two or three slots for specialization, so you'd end up with an alloy-science planet, and a unity-consumer goods planet, instead of singularly an alloy planet. I'm not sure if my ideas are really all that great, but I feel like each planet really could use more character and interest, as well as being a place to make more important strategic choices instead of just picking a designation based on what you need/what the planet modifier is.
 
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Side Hustle - every designation is about the one thing the planet does best, but that should never be enough to fill the planet's districts and building slots, so every planet could have a secondary function. This planet is Science + Aquaculture; that planet is Alloys + crystal farming, etc.

Post-Colonial Events - every planet gets an event, some get several, and these events give useful jobs. An example of what I mean here is the Dancing Plague chain where you can get 1 gas miner job per X pops. With more things like that, each planet could have something distinct even if it doesn't start with anything special.

Better Deposits - right now we have "strategic resource" deposits which can be replaced by 10 minerals, and an "alien zoo" deposit which just gets you a holo theater that you can't upgrade. These are ignored often because they're trash. Deposits could be meaningful, e.g. the dancing plague gas vent which gives 1 job per X pops, no building slot required.

Location, Location, Location - planets on the path between empire capitals should get events related to the people who travel between empires - merchant convoys, pirates selling loot from the other empire, spies, if the other empire is a slaver then underground railroad (which causes trouble for the other empire at a minimal upkeep cost to you), and so on.
 
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MatthewP

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I think it’s another symptom of stellaris’s ongoing ambivalence about how planets fit into the game. The core of the game currently is a planet management sim, but it seems like it was intended to be a grand strategy/rpg hybrid. There’s a constant tension between wanting things to be on a grand scale and be about relations with aliens, sweeping societal changes, etc. and enabling fine-grained control over what each pop is doing. I’m not sure there’s a good solution within this framework. Adding more detail and distinctiveness to planets will just make things even more unmanageable and overwhelming when you have 30 of them.
 
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Adding more detail and distinctiveness to planets will just make things even more unmanageable and overwhelming when you have 30 of them.

Maybe the AI will get good enough that we can have a small number of managed planets and a bunch of vassals which create basic resources for us.

(A man can dream...)
 
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Frydendahl89

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Frankly, I would really like to see planets become a lot more rare, but substantially more unique. Having 30+ planets is completely unmanageable.

Alternatively, have planet designations become more extreme, giving a different set of buildings and districts available. Rural worlds could be similar to thrall worlds. They don't support city or industry districts, and have a fixed set of buildings, but they crank out pops to the rest of the empire.

Unique resources from specific planets would also help 'spice' up the game a lot (get it? Spice?). Right now I never care about conquering a specific part of an other empire, except maybe a system with a ruined megastructure.
 
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Maybe the AI will get good enough that we can have a small number of managed planets and a bunch of vassals which create basic resources for us.
In my opinion, the philosophy behind the first versions of Stellaris (i.e. with a limited number of directly managed planets and a forced devolution to AI managers via sectors) wasn't bad per se. However, at that time, other parts of the game were too crude to give the player an enjoyable experience:
- management of planets was super shallow, and despite that the AI was completely unfit for the task
- internal politics was unexistent (just like now, actually)
- also federations were basically nonexistent in terms of mechanics, there was no galactic community and there was only one type of subject
- there was no espionage and very few ways to interact with other entities in the game (empires, enclaves etc.)

Letting aside the current reaction of the community to even a light malus to the "wide" gameplay, if this type of design were re-introduced today it wouldn't be that bad. After all, CK2 is built around indirect management and it's ok. A Stellaris that gives the players a lot of indirect ways to control its empire and the galaxy would allow for very in-depth planetary management mechanics.

On the other hand, if devs insist in giving player direct control of tens of planets and habitats (habitats are a real problem in late game in this regard) then no, I don't think there is space for detailing planets even further.
 
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MatthewP

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Alternatively, have planet designations become more extreme, giving a different set of buildings and districts available. Rural worlds could be similar to thrall worlds. They don't support city or industry districts, and have a fixed set of buildings, but they crank out pops to the rest of the empire.

In my opinion, the philosophy behind the first versions of Stellaris (i.e. with a limited number of directly managed planets and a forced devolution to AI managers via sectors) wasn't bad per se. However, at that time, other parts of the game were too crude to give the player an enjoyable experience:
- management of planets was super shallow, and despite that the AI was completely unfit for the task
- internal politics was unexistent (just like now, actually)
- also federations were basically nonexistent in terms of mechanics, there was no galactic community and there was only one type of subject
- there was no espionage and very few ways to interact with other entities in the game (empires, enclaves etc.)

Letting aside the current reaction of the community to even a light malus to the "wide" gameplay, if this type of design were re-introduced today it wouldn't be that bad. After all, CK2 is built around indirect management and it's ok. A Stellaris that gives the players a lot of indirect ways to control its empire and the galaxy would allow for very in-depth planetary management mechanics.

On the other hand, if devs insist in giving player direct control of tens of planets and habitats (habitats are a real problem in late game in this regard) then no, I don't think there is space for detailing planets even further.
I think either of these could be a good solution. I don't want to scale down the number of planets. If anything I wish the Stellaris galaxy felt bigger. But the player shouldn't be expected to manage more than a handful in any detail. If that's done by handing them off to a semi-competent AI with some early version of the sector system, great. If it's done by only allowing players to hand a handful of core worlds and requiring the others to be given some designation that makes managing them hands off, also great. An advantage to the latter idea is that it could help the game engine as much as the player if the majority of planets behaved in a much simpler way.
 
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Cat_Fuzz

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It’s an unpopular suggestion to most here (because of m’min/max) but I think they need to take some control away from players when it comes to planets, in particular with pops and societal events.

The ‘situations’ changes that are on the way may go some way to fixing this, but I digress. Planets would feel more unique if you had less certain control over pops, what jobs they do, and their reaction to things you are doing.

Right now, you can get pops to work whatever job you want (from disabling jobs to promote others, building districts etc). Unhappiness can largely be dealt with by occasionally building an entertainment district on all planets, or tweaking some policies at the flip of a switch.

If disabling jobs had some sort of consequences (disgruntled pops, economic dips due to lack of labour diversity), or more work was needed to settle unhappy pops, that would at least give the impression of something happening on each planet, and that’s excluding factors like crime, planetary features that could also interact with pops in unique ways.
 
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You remember adjacencies? What if each building gave small but broad bonuses for other buildings on the same planet. That way having a big variety will give uncommon bonuses. Maybe that could encourage more diverse mixed planets.
 
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Ferrus Animus

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It’s an unpopular suggestion to most here (because of m’min/max) but I think they need to take some control away from players when it comes to planets, in particular with pops and societal events.

The problem with taking away control is that it has to work for the player.
First the player has to know what happens and be able to influence it, or the game is basically an idle game.
Second the player has to to benefit from the things he hands off still, which is something the game has struggled with. Depending on version "letting" the AI manage planets (which was not optional in plenty of them) ranged from "quite bad" to "literally making your empire worse than if that planet didn't exist".
Third, the game still needs gameplay for the player to play the game, and outside of planetary management the game is kinda lacking.
Fourth, changing the game in that way is a lot of work, when Stellaris has always struggled with major redesigns and has attempted similar in the past which didn't work out. So the idea itself is basically "return to older design but this time make it work, when before you couldn't" which is not really the smartest way to approach design.
 
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Cat_Fuzz

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First the player has to know what happens and be able to influence it, or the game is basically an idle game.
The problem with taking away control is that it has to work for the player.
You’re right in that a player needs to understand events before they happen, but that can already exist. If you have low-stability, you have a higher chance of having revolts or crime taking place. You have an unhappy faction, there’s a chance of a regime change or a coup. Disabling jobs causes no issues with your pops. There should be ways to deal with these things as well.

As it is now, none of these things do anything other than reduce your production capacity, which is a temporary barrier to doing what you like with planets anyway.


Second the player has to to benefit from the things he hands off still, which is something the game has struggled with. Depending on version "letting" the AI manage planets (which was not optional in plenty of them) ranged from "quite bad" to "literally making your empire worse than if that planet didn't exist"

True, but I don’t see why the improved AI since then can’t just be transposed over to sectors, along with improved ways of funnelling resources to them. I’ve suggested before a well-worn trope in 4x games where you can apportion a percentage of your resources to you determine to your sectors. Stellaris should also do this and allow to allocate and adjust as needed.
Third, the game still needs gameplay for the player to play the game, and outside of planetary management the game is kinda lacking.

Well, you have warfare, diplomacy, espionage, building things like habitats or megastructures, the GC, research choices, tradition choices, edicts and decisions. Automating or relinquishing SOME control of planet development doesn’t mean there is no game left.

I’m also not really advocating for complete automation, but just that there should be some factors that are not wholly in your control, and should be due to decisions you make as a player (eg if I run at a zero energy deficit for several months, there SHOULD be consequences to that that affect your pops)
Fourth, changing the game in that way is a lot of work, when Stellaris has always struggled with major redesigns and has attempted similar in the past which didn't work out. So the idea itself is basically "return to older design but this time make it work, when before you couldn't" which is not really the smartest way to approach design.
Well there have been many improvements in the last several years, and sectors and pops events have largely been off the table in this regard. I mean AI had only JUST started to improve after 5+ years of complaints about it. It’s not beyond impossible for something similar to happen with this feature.

EDIT: Multi-quoting from a phone is incredibly annoying so apologies for the formatting (but I’m not going to change it)
 
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Shadowstrike

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Thinking this through a bit, cross-pollination of building bonuses might be a good way to go in terms of raw production. In the real world, most cities have a smattering of different industries, along with perhaps a few things they are really good at. For instance, New York City is well known for being a financial center, but it's also a port and a cultural center (Broadway, TV production, etc.). Los Angeles might best be known for Hollywood, but it's also an oil town, and a transportation terminus. The combination of different industries have synergistic effects. To build on @klopkr 's suggestion above, perhaps there could be buildings that give bonuses to different fields on the basis of how many structures of one field there are. For instance, you might imagine an "agricultural research facility" give bonuses to society research for each farming district. That would encourage worlds to have more than one specialization. There are probably lots of pairings that make sense (the three basic districts to the three types of science, mining to alloys, science to alloys and unity, unity to different kinds of output, etc.)

I think the planetary designations are really pushing us towards single-product planets though. If you have a bonus towards one output, then it makes sense to specialize a world entirely in that product. The same kind of happens with singular planetary modifiers though: I see the titanic life modifier and that world is going to be my science world. I see harsh weather, and that's going to be an energy world, etc. On some level, the cross-pollination buildings would mitigate that somewhat.

But beyond that, we really need more consequences about factional loyalty and cultural assimilation/tolerance of different species (as well as more tools to mitigate/modify/direct those changes), which would add a different dimension to planetary management. I've suggested some models before (see signature), but that does seem like an area that could really be expanded on.
 
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DanielPrates

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Maybe the AI will get good enough that we can have a small number of managed planets and a bunch of vassals which create basic resources for us.

(A man can dream...)

Galciv4 may be on the right track with their new system. There you have less proper planets, like we are acostumed to, with the usual buildings, pops, unique things etc. The more numerous things are now "colonies" which are blander, simpler resource-makers. The idea is to give a feel that you are expanding everywhere and at the same time not managing all thay much. Yeah you are present in hundreds of celestial bodies but you only really manage half a dozen of them, the rest are tributary entities. A great idea if you ask me.
 
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Galciv4 may be on the right track with their new system. There you have less proper planets, like we are acostumed to, with the usual buildings, pops, unique things etc. The more numerous things are now "colonies" which are blander, simpler resource-makers. The idea is to give a feel that you are expanding everywhere and at the same time not managing all thay much. Yeah you are present in hundreds of celestial bodies but you only really manage half a dozen of them, the rest are tributary entities. A great idea if you ask me.

Is that like how 1.x did a "mining colony" vs. "core world" choice when you expanded?

I do like the distinction.
 

DanielPrates

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Is that like how 1.x did a "mining colony" vs. "core world" choice when you expanded?

I do like the distinction.

Oh yeah something like that.

The fully develoled planet, of which you can build a few (because the opportunity presents itself less often) is rarer. Then there are, around the major planets, other planets that are liable to settlement as "colonies". You interact with them via a simpler interface. No pops, tiles, buildings. Yeah they develop, but in a simpler tiered way, like our stations in stellaris. They are tied to the closest planet and send their produce over there. Some are agri colonies, some mine worlds etc.

A great idea. Totally doable in Stellaris, if they were willing to to YET ANOTHER 180 DEGREES TURN.
 
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@HFY to go further....

I wouldnt change a comma on how the stellaris map and planets are right now.

But to reduce micro, and make the player's choices more challenging, I would make it so that there were some cap (sprawl? Bureaucracy? Idk) on how many core planets you can have or is able to manage. Those would be the ones we have now, with the pops and jobs and whatnot.

So say you can have five or six of them main fully developed planets full of people, factions, alloy factories, etc. "Shitte, there are 49 other colonizable planets on my territory, what a waste!". Not so fast! On those you can put the lower-tier thingy, the.... oh damn how do we call it? Colony? Outpost? Whatever the name, it is also a presence in the planet. But with a mere symbolic interface, like the one we have with stations. You would use it for the simple management you intend for that planet, like "agricolony" which yields say 25 food if the planet is suitable - see they are still the same planets as before, with the same modifiers, some are suitable for some things and some for others.

And same as starbases, there could be improvements, modules etc.

You would just assume there is enough people there to manage an automated agricultural enterprise - way, way less than what it takes to fully form a single pop. Of course you could invest in the colony, so the more you invest in it, the more it yields. I am not saying it should be a thing that you colonize and forget. Some micro will still exist. But not the micro that a full planet represents. Only the micro proportional to a starbase, so modules, buildings, 3 or four tiers etc.
 
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Right now there is no reason to build balanced planets as even if you lose a local Food or CG planet during a war as long as you have a decent stockpile and another world at the other end of your empire it's all good.

Maybe we should put the whole Trade network system to work and have it be a real trade network. I live in Canada, and in the last year we have had major highways destroyed by floods and shutdown by protests with immediate, tangible effects on the distribution of our goods. When the Ever Given blocked the Suez Canal there were worldwide effects from the backup of the transport network. Covid. While these recent events have mostly highlighted the fragility of our supply chains, they have also brought to the forefront the consequences of hyperspecialization in manufacturing and the loss of local production capabilities.

Perhaps having consequences for doing the same in game, through events and wars, would give incentive to players to add some variety to our planets in a natural way. Not to say every world should be self sufficient, but at least incentives for doing so on a system/sector wide basis.

Give us civilian and military supply chains, and local stockpiles that can be depleted through use or sabotage, that can be disrupted actively and passively during wars and events. Look at the French invasion of Russia in 1812. The abandonment or wholesale of overseas territories that could not be realistically held or maintained. The German advance in Russia being stalled, the massive Luftwaffe operation to supply the 6th Army once it was cutoff and surrounded in Stalingrad. The Berlin Airlift. The Pacific theatre of WWII. Sieges throughout history have been almost entirely dependent on how well stocked and supplied the aggressor and defenders have been, and on the scale of the wars we have seen in the last few centuries and the galactic scale of Stellaris, a conflict of empires is not much different from a siege.

That said I would love more unique planet types, more reasons to build them, and a bit more depth(Resort, Penal, and Holy worlds are a thin veneer of flavour) to planet management in general.
 
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Right now there is no reason to build balanced planets as even if you lose a local Food or CG planet during a war as long as you have a decent stockpile and another world at the other end of your empire it's all good.

Maybe we should put the whole Trade network system to work and have it be a real trade network. I live in Canada, and in the last year we have had major highways destroyed by floods and shutdown by protests with immediate, tangible effects on the distribution of our goods. When the Ever Given blocked the Suez Canal there were worldwide effects from the backup of the transport network. Covid. While these recent events have mostly highlighted the fragility of our supply chains, they have also brought to the forefront the consequences of hyperspecialization in manufacturing and the loss of local production capabilities.

Perhaps having consequences for doing the same in game, through events and wars, would give incentive to players to add some variety to our planets in a natural way. Not to say every world should be self sufficient, but at least incentives for doing so on a system/sector wide basis.

Give us civilian and military supply chains, and local stockpiles that can be depleted through use or sabotage, that can be disrupted actively and passively during wars and events. Look at the French invasion of Russia in 1812. The abandonment or wholesale of overseas territories that could not be realistically held or maintained. The German advance in Russia being stalled, the massive Luftwaffe operation to supply the 6th Army once it was cutoff and surrounded in Stalingrad. The Berlin Airlift. The Pacific theatre of WWII. Sieges and wars throughout history have been almost entirely dependent on how well stocked and supplied the aggressor and defenders have been.

That said I would love more unique planet types, more reasons to build them, and a bit more depth(Resort, Penal, and Holy worlds are a thin veneer of flavour) to planet management in general.

Agreed. And I feel like you could use the trade mechanic that's already in the game to do it. Right now, trade bases are linked by trade routes and have a radius in which they collect trade. So, expand that mechanic to just include all resources.

If a system is connected to the capital through the trade network, then it is connected to the empire's stockpile. It adds its resources and can withdraw from them. If it isn't in the collection radius of a trade base, or if its trade network doesn't connect to the capital, then it can't connect to the empire's stockpile. It can only use local resources.

Local stockpiles might be a good addition, although I worry that this might add a lot of complexity for relatively little payoff. Plus, given just how many resources empires generate in Stellaris, they also might defeat the purpose. It won't matter if a planet is cut off from the empire if it can just coast for the next decade off its stockpiled food.

I would expand this to all systems though, not just planets. Right now uninhabited systems (most of the galaxy map) are just dead space, so most empires end up with huge backwaters that they just kind of ignore. Needing to build and defend trade networks in those areas, along with keeping an eye out for piracy, would add a little depth to those systems.
 
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But to the OP's point, I agree completely. Originally the player wasn't really supposed to pay much attention to their planets, except for the handful of core worlds, so they didn't need to feel like anything special. They could be just cogs in the machine, because your characters happened higher up.

Personally, I did actually love what the original sector system was supposed to do. Managing the personalities and politics of your empire, while also dealing with the threats of a broader galaxy, was a great idea. The AI couldn't handle it, and they never actually built that strategic or RP gameplay, but I thought the idea they had on paper would have been terrific.

That said, 100% agree. The current version of the game doesn't do that. In fact, most of the player's time is spent directly managing their planets. It would be great if those planets felt like something dynamic and alive, instead of just stamped out resource engines.

Although personality in general is something that Stellaris does still struggle with. From empires down to leaders, arguably the biggest problem I would say I have with the game is that everything in it just feels like a series of stats and bonuses.
 
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