Planes: Multirole or Specialized, whats better?

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Cavalry

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The practical multi role design has bomb lock or rocket rails. This way they don't have agility hit when do interception or escort.

Agility and Speed is important if you want to hit enemy fighters. The pure bomber or CAS can use machine gun turret to shot back the fighters and that is enough for air attack, the non BBA version have a few air attack too, but for fighter, the turrets looks not good.
 
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Gran Strategist

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There was a recent discussion on multirole or pure aircraft if you want to read through it

 
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Cavalry

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The top priority for air force is bomb the enemy land troops for successful land attack.

The question is not how to use CAS/bomber to shoot down the enemy fighters and win air superiority, but how to bomb the enemy land troops and still survive.

If you have number parity or advantage, then you should concentrate on bombing the enemy. Though you can use all three kinds: fighter, fighter bomber, CAS. Fighter bomber flying CAS mission can increase the mass number needed, while still help CAS bombing, because the +35% combat bonus from air support come from planes number, not ground attack.

The more headache I currently play is how to bomb the German troops as the Greek. So far what I research:

- The fighter bomber is great for air support and survival and shoot down some fighter. They have +65% air bonus from Battlefield doctrine and spirits on CAS mission bonus (vs 25-30% of air superiority fighters), and they can use the Fighter Designer. But don't expect miracle because you are outnumbered and one less slot for air attack. Try hard for not to reduce agility here.
- You still need a small escort (air superiority mission) to reduce disruption and attract the enemy fighters away from your CAS. Detection is still benefit for escort.
- The CAS still need a few air attack of their all to reduce disruption, as your small escort fighter team will not be enough.
- The factor for planes doing CAS mission to reduce disruption, from wiki: air attack, air defense, speed. The figher bomber already have the air attack from main slot, so no need to use the machine gun turret, because it lower agility that affect the survival. The pure CAS should better have the turrets because they already lose the agility comparison vs enemy fighters.

So as a minor, you can have 50% escort fighter- 50% pure CAS, or better use 20% escort-80% fighter bombers. All the planes should be build on survival first, firepower second, think twice before you put anything that reduce agility. And need to stop bombing periodly when the enemy fighters gather too many. Don't forget to build some state AA, they kill supply transport planes too.
 
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blahmaster6k

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Hello,

if you have 200 planes.
what is better?

100 with 2 machineguns
100 with 2 bombs
or
200 with
1 bomb
1 machineguns


Thanks.
If you have 200 planes, AA in your divisions will be more valuable than any configuration of 200 planes.

Joking aside, for a 1936 plane with only 2 top-row module slots, it's best to go with specialized planes. Any number of specialized fighters will fight better and specialized bombers will bomb better compared to twice the amount of planes putting half effort towards two tasks.

It's really a far too complex topic to boil down to a simple question of "which is better?" because the answer always depends on context. What is the player's goal? What is the economic situation? Multirole planes with the right min-maxing of buffs are the best planes in the sky in air combat, but only 1940 and later air frames, and only when they are supporting land battles. If those planes need to fight over sea zones or intercept bombers, a standard specialized fighter would be better. And specialized CAS/tactical bombers are going to be much, much better at inflicting damage on ground troops compared to any multirole plane. But if you only care about getting the air superiority and air support buffs, any plane will do.
 

Gyrvendal

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IMO specialized is almost always better. Maybe with late game planes it's workable, when you unlock more slots and rocket rails, but then they won't be able to upgrade your early-game wings which is super annoying. The UI also makes it a chore, because their is no multi-role designation, so the game will always label them as either fighters or bombers depending on your primary weapon.
Maybe if you play a nation that only gets planes pretty late, like China, you might consider it.
 

Cavalry

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Play it as Greece, the fighter CAS with rocket lacks the lovely ground damange punch. From my calculation, a 1940 fighter-CAS in Battlefield doctrine (+65% CAS mission efficiency) can have a module with -15 or -20 agility and still have agility comparable with enemy 1944 fighter . So l can finalize the design of fighter CAS here, just one module to reduce agility: the anti tank cannon.

1677064666560.png


This have advantage vs pure CAS:
- high agility to survive but still good ground punch. (ground attack = 31)
- use the agility designer of the fighter, and can have the cost discount of fighters.
- hight air attack to reduce disruption and occasion shoot down enemy fighter.

As Greece I use them as CAS mission only, with some pure fighters for escort. About 200 pure fighter-500 fighter CAS.

With the Air designer, we can keep the 1940 frame very long, when we have new 1944 frame, use them as pure fighter and switch the 1940 fighter/CAS production line to fighter-CAS or pure CAS to keep the production efficiency.
 

Cavalry

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A quick bonus for minors air player, when we decode the enemy but don't reveal, then we have a big +25% interception mission efficiency that boost air attack- air defense-agility. Use this to shoot down CAS, bombers. The detection mechanic allow a small fighter on intercept can fight bigger enemy. All heavy machine gun for fighter is a safe bet, but when we have agility advantage, we can try 1 cannon-2 machine gun and see. No need to go all in 3 cannon slots, this can be disvantage when fighting fighters.



1677077187467.png
 

blahmaster6k

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Play it as Greece, the fighter CAS with rocket lacks the lovely ground damange punch. From my calculation, a 1940 fighter-CAS in Battlefield doctrine (+65% CAS mission efficiency) can have a module with -15 or -20 agility and still have agility comparable with enemy 1944 fighter . So l can finalize the design of fighter CAS here, just one module to reduce agility: the anti tank cannon.
This misses a couple of important points, and your design is honestly not good at all if you're looking for a plane that can bomb ground troops well and still be good at air combat(spoiler, no such design exists). If your main goal is to maximize damage dealt to ground troops you're never going to be able to get a plane that is competent in air combat simply because every module that you spend on CAS weapons means one fewer module that you get to allocate to air combat. Since you literally can't have a single plane that is good at both, it's best to just pick one and focus completely on it. In other words, just build a regular CAS plane with full CAS weapons instead of a mostly-CAS plane with a single module of 4x HMGs.

And if you really wanted to make the plane you designed better at air combat without really changing the design you would put the bombs or AT cannon in the first slot to make it a CAS plane to benefit from battlefield support's CAS agility modifier. If you're going battlefield support for the mission efficiency you're not getting 10% fighter agility from doctrine - so you should make sure to get the 20% CAS agility by making it count as a CAS plane.

The design you posted would be decent (though not optimal) for bombing ground troops, but the only reason to make a design compromise like that in the first place is to have it be good at air combat too. But here's why that design will be terrible at air combat:

In your post you mostly talk about agility, going into some math on how your mostly CAS plane can keep up with 1944 fighters on agility. You seem to think that having good agility by itself will make the planes able to perform well in air combat. But that is simply not the case. Agility for its own sake isn't very important anymore now that there is a large variance in what each air frame is capable of. Agility acts as effectively a stat multiplier for damage taken, but it's the total damage values that are the important parts of the formula. If your agility is the same as the planes you're fighting then neither side has an agility advantage and the agility does nothing. What air combat boils down to then(as it always has really) is your air attack and defense vs the enemy's air attack and defense.

Before the air rework, there were really only "1940 fighters" etc and they all had the same attack and defense by default. Increasing attack reduced agility for only a moderate gain in attack but increasing agility had no drawback. This combined with defensive modifiers mathematically being superior to offensive modifiers means that increasing agility first was the best way to ensure you get favorable air trades. Increasing weapons was helpful, but only after maxing out agility. This long history of "upgrade agility first, agility is the most important plane upgrade" being the main commonly spoken advice has led to a misconception that agility itself is the single most important stat that a plane can have - and it's simply wrong.

Now, however, the base air frame provides no attack and only a small amount of defense. You can increase the attack and defense of your planes so much more by adding modules that the agility multiplier really is not very impactful compared to just having much higher base attack and defense.

In your post you see a plane with 54 agility (that would be boosted to about 89 while on close air support given 165% air support mission efficiency). I see a plane with 12 base air attack and 21 air defense(not shown in your screenshot but it would go up to 25 defense while on a CAS mission thanks to the dive brakes), that would be boosted to 19.8/41.25 by CAS efficiency modifiers. Compare that to a standard 1940 fighter with strategic destruction doctrine and light air designer:
1677102844928.png

With 120% air superiority mission efficiency, the stats of a standard 1940 fighter go up to 76.8 agility, 62 air attack, and 25.2 air defense.

The mostly-cas plane will have a 15% agility advantage, a 63% air defense advantage, and a negligible speed advantage. But those defensive modifiers are nowhere near strong enough to compete with the 62-19.8 advantage in air attack owned by the dedicated 1940 fighter. The standard fighter has over three times the air attack of the CAS plane and will shoot them out of the sky like the great turkey shoot.

Your design also only has 810 km of range, which may end up lacking or struggling for mission efficiency in larger regions or when trying to project power. The standard fighter has drop tanks to get up to 1080 range, a 33% advantage. The armor is much better for air combat, but if you can't reach the combat zone it's not providing any stats at all. A standard fighter if it replaced the fuel tanks with a second armor module would drop in range significantly but would be even better at air combat compared to your CAS design. In fact, when building a test with your design it could barely even gain full coverage of Western Germany from the airfield on the Maginot Line, and was unable to get full coverage from any airfield further away. Meanwhile a design with drop tanks doesn't have to worry about efficiency penalties like that. Compare the smaller circles (your design) to the one big circle which is my preferred multirole design, which I will go over later:
1677105958843.png


Or compare to a standard fighter, which can cover the entirety of Northern France from five airfields within Germany and can get near-full coverage from another several:
1677105700225.png


Since I've said a bunch on this already, I thought I may as well do some testing to prove my point. 6000 v 6000 plus radar for full detection, fully trained. Germany gets standard fighters(pretty much the best fighter design you can make with 1940 tech without sacrificing range), full strategic destruction doctrine, light air designer, no air spirits (since none help air superiority when mission efficiency is already at 100%). France gets the Cavalry Multirole design, full battlefield support doctrine, and the continuous strike air spirit.

After a month of combat, the Cavalry multirole design lost 1462 planes, and the standard fighter design lost only 666 planes. Unfortunately I lost the in-game screenshot by letting the game play on so you'll have to do with a slightly less accurate screenshot of the past 12 month losses instead of the last 30 days. Doing the cost analysis on the planes, France lost 1.991 times more IC worth of planes than the Germans did, making the Cavalry Multirole design only about half as good as a normal fighter - not something that should be relied upon if the air war is anywhere near parity in numbers.

1677110395222.png



Now let's try my favorite multirole plane design - I lovingly call it the "Cas-Fighter Cheese" design. It benefits from +20% CAS agility by having rocket rails in the 1 slot, replacing a 4x HMG module that would be on a standard fighter. It also swaps out an armor module for dive brakes, which saves some range and cost but provides the same air defense while on CAS missions. Otherwise the design is the same as a fighter, with 4x cannon Is, drop tanks, and self-sealing fuel tanks. With the 165% air support mission efficiency, this plane will have 34.65 defense, 104.94 agility, and 66 air attack in combat. That's slightly more attack, way more defense, and way more agility compared to a standard fighter - at least when on CAS missions. On any other mission it is quite a bit weaker, so only use these in their intended role if possible.
1677104484508.png
Let's see how they perform in combat. Fair warning, I forgot to save the game before the first test which is why I lost my screenshots and to save time training another 6000 planes, I just carried on. So the Germans have a very slight experience advantage and several flying aces to begin this combat, which should in theory give them an advantage.

1677111198709.png

Any advantage the standard fighters got from mistakes made while testing is still heavily outweighed by how much better the cas-fighter cheese design is when used for air support. They may have only done 170 bombing compared to the 751 of the cavalry design, but they completely shredded the enemy fighters. 1613 cheese planes were lost, but they shot down 2476 standard fighters. Doing cost-efficiency math shows that the cheese plane is 61% more cost-efficient in air combat compared to the standard fighter - and that's including testing errors that favor the standard fighters.

That's why I call it a cheese design - It's over 60% better than the best possible fighter in air combat. This is almost certainly a design oversight, and it doesn't make logical sense either - a plane only partially dedicated to air combat should not be better at air combat than dedicated fighters of the same tech level - but it is. Exploit it as much as you want.

You don't build them primarily for bombing ground troops, but for destroying enemy fighters. The bombing that it does do is a nice side benefit. Once the enemy fighters are taken care of you can send in dedicated CAS planes to mop up the enemy ground forces. You can continue using your cheese planes for the small amounts of bombing that they do provide, or can even convert some of your cheese planes into full CAS planes once you've won the air war to rapidly expand your CAS forces, since you won't need as many fighters anymore.

End Essay.
 
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Cavalry

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just build a regular CAS plane with full CAS weapons instead of a mostly-CAS plane with a single module of 4x HMGs.
The purpose is to bomb and air support vs Axis troops as Greece. With 400 planes, I can build 200 pure fighter and 200 CAS, or 100 pure fighter and 300 fighter bomber. It looks like the later case give more help to land, 200 CAS vs 300 fighter bombers?

If you're going battlefield support for the mission efficiency you're not getting 10% fighter agility from doctrine - so you should make sure to get the 20% CAS agility by making it count as a CAS plane.

Fighter bomber get the +10% agility and speed from designers, and DLC Greece have a fighter designer with +20%.

After a month of combat, the Cavalry multirole design lost 1462 planes, and the standard fighter design lost only 666 planes.

Well do you use that fighter bomber as CAS with no escort? While they are fighter bomber, I use them as CAS only. I still have pure fighter for other purpose. I did try the fighter-rocket (no AT cannon), but shoot a few more enemy fighter is not as satisfy as bomb more enemy troops.

That's why I call it a cheese design - It's over 60% better than the best possible fighter in air combat. This is almost certainly a design oversight, and it doesn't make logical sense either - a plane only partially dedicated to air combat should not be better at air combat than dedicated fighters of the same tech level - but it is. Exploit it as much as you want.

Nice. But Greece have only 400 planes to fight Axis 2000. So I can only fly a few days to bomb enemy then ground all planes. The damn British cannot provide me air cover.
 

blahmaster6k

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The purpose is to bomb and air support vs Axis troops as Greece. With 400 planes, I can build 200 pure fighter and 200 CAS, or 100 pure fighter and 300 fighter bomber. It looks like the later case give more help to land, 200 CAS vs 300 fighter bombers?



Fighter bomber get the +10% agility and speed from designers, and DLC Greece have a fighter designer with +20%.



Well do you use that fighter bomber as CAS with no escort? While they are fighter bomber, I use them as CAS only. I still have pure fighter for other purpose. I did try the fighter-rocket (no AT cannon), but shoot a few more enemy fighter is not as satisfy as bomb more enemy troops.



Nice. But Greece have only 400 planes to fight Axis 2000. So I can only fly a few days to bomb enemy then ground all planes. The damn British cannot provide me air cover.
I feel like I've said this before, but if you have 400 planes vs 2000 you should focus 100% on fighters since any planes you have on CAS will be interrupted and not bomb anything very well. A better and cheaper option would be to just ignore air and have AA to mitigate enemy CAS, and focus on having good divisions.

The multirole cheese design I use would be your best bet, just have 400 of those and eventually you will win the air war, though it will take a very long time and might not be worth it in the short term since you will still be under red air the whole time.

As for the Greek air designer being 20%, that's almost irrelevant unless you're making pure fighters and using a fighter doctrine. For CAS it's the same agility either way. Speed can help but it isn't a very big part of the combat formula since it's an offensive modifier rather than defensive.

And even if your design was specific to Greece, this thread is about air combat in general. Special cases can't be generalized.
 
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As for the Greek air designer being 20%, that's almost irrelevant unless you're making pure fighters and using a fighter doctrine. For CAS it's the same agility either way. Speed can help but it isn't a very big part of the combat formula since it's an offensive modifier rather than defensive.

And even if your design was specific to Greece, this thread is about air combat in general. Special cases can't be generalized.
Are you sure the agility from designer don't help if the fighter go CAS mission? The design symbol appear if the 1st slot is for fighter. It is not easy to check the real effect.
Other country have the +10% for fighter and that is OK enough.

For general, fighter bomber can do multiple jobs if we want. They can bomb better than fighter and survive better than pure CAS! :D The gun in the first slot allow no need for a gun turret that reduce agility and save place for more armor. CAS/bomber need air attack to reduce disruption. But for Greece game just use them as CAS because we don't need intercept very much. This game I will try the intercept game when waiting for the Germans to go East. Fighter bomber to use as intercept will need to drop AT cannon/bomb bay and use rocket or bomb locks.
 

blahmaster6k

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Are you sure the agility from designer don't help if the fighter go CAS mission? The design symbol appear if the 1st slot is for fighter. It is not easy to check the real effect.
Other country have the +10% for fighter and that is OK enough.
The agility does work. I'm saying that the 20% fighter agility from the Greek light air designer and the 20% CAS agility from battlefield support doctrine are mutually exclusive equal buffs. So they both affect the plane the same way in terms of agility, and you can only have one or the other. The only difference is the extra 10% speed from the fighter designer, but it's a pretty small buff. Typically in fighter vs fighter matchups both sides have it so it cancels out. In fighter vs multirole matchups it helps the fighter but not enough to overcome battlefield support's broken bonuses. For countries other than Greece that go BS doctrine, they miss out on the 10% agility from SD/OI doctrines. This means that in all other scenarios the 20% CAS agility bonus is just better than the only 10% agility/speed bonus from a generic light aircraft designer.

If you combined a Greek fighter with Strategic Destruction or Operational Integrity, you could stack the two to get a total of 30% bonus agility. But if you go Battlefield Support then it doesn't make a difference in terms of agility whether you have a fighter with the designer or a CAS plane with the doctrine boost.
For general, fighter bomber can do multiple jobs if we want. They can bomb better than fighter and survive better than pure CAS! :D The gun in the first slot allow no need for a gun turret that reduce agility and save place for more armor. CAS/bomber need air attack to reduce disruption. But for Greece game just use them as CAS because we don't need intercept very much. This game I will try the intercept game when waiting for the Germans to go East. Fighter bomber to use as intercept will need to drop AT cannon/bomb bay and use rocket or bomb locks.
You're still falling into the pitfall here of trying to be a jack of all trades. Jack of all trades, master of none is how the saying goes. They fight worse than fighters and bomb worse than CAS. CAS doesn't need air attack to reduce disruption, they need supporting fighters. Turrets are never worth it except maybe on strategic bombers. They cost too much, provide too little air attack, and lower agility. It's much better to make CAS/bombers with only bombs and then non-strategic materials to make them as cheap as possible. Dedicate fighters for taking down enemy planes, and dedicate your CAS 100% towards bombing the enemy.

The design I use fights better than fighters while still doing some bombing, which is why the design is used in the first place.

My air warfare plan that works in every single game is basically a flow chart with the end goal of "win the air war". The number 1 priority of the air war is destruction of the enemy air force, and this goal is to be prioritized above all others. If you can win the air war, the ground war will soon follow. And while the enemy air force is still a threat, do not invest in ground attack or bombing. Note that these rules in gameplay also more or less translated to real life strategy as well - countries that focused on bombing the enemy without having air superiority were usually unsuccessful. Even when the allies had air superiority, their unescorted bomber raids over Europe were usually not worth the cost in bombers shot down and air crews lost for the damage they did to the Axis industry. And Germany paid dearly for focusing its efforts on bombing English cities without destroying the RAF first(if it was even possible to destroy the RAF at all) - the Luftwaffe was decimated in the Battle of Britain.

The whole air warfare plan hinges on the question of, "How many planes do I have compared to the enemy?" If the answer is none or very few, I then ask myself, "How much industry do I have?" If the answer to that is "very little" then I do a no-air build and focus on building AA to put in my divisions. I will have red air everywhere, but I aim to have close to 100 air attack in my offensive divisions to fully mitigate the penalty from red air. Even if my offensive divisions on a minor are just 2-4 tank or SPG divisions, or even just a few divisions of infantry special forces, giving those divisions 80-100 air attack and having at least support AA in my other divisions will work to stabilize or win the ground war in the absence of friendly air. Once I have stabilized the front, or if the answer to the industry question is "enough for now/a lot", The plan is to build exclusively fighters and then periodically reevaluate the first question.

"How many planes do I have compared to the enemy?" If the answer is "fewer, but not overwhelmingly so" then the plan is simple: build more fighters, and build only fighters. Trying to build any other type of plane with a numbers disadvantage is a losing strategy. CAS or bombers will be shot down and disrupted before carrying out their mission, so building CAS is pointless. Therefore, we build fighters. Then, we compare the quality of our fighters to those of the enemy. If our fighters are much better than those of the enemy, we can fly our planes and gradually grind down the enemy air force with attrition. This will typically be the case in single player, as the AI does not make good plane designs. As long as we are producing planes faster than we are losing them and have positive k:d, we can fly our planes. Otherwise, keep the planes in the stockpile or deployed but exercising to regulars.

If we finally start to approach parity with the enemy in numbers, then the air warfare plan gets a little bit more complicated. We should still build mostly fighters, but if we have the same number of fighters as the enemy we can start to produce a few CAS planes. Now that we have fighter parity there is a much lower chance of our CAS being disrupted, so we will actually be able to bomb ground troops while the fighters fight each other.

Then, keep looping back to the first question again. If we get to the point where we have more planes than the enemy, we can afford to drop fighter production and switch some over to CAS and/or bombing. Our CAS will operate unimpeded at this point as we have air superiority, so focusing on bombers will help quite a lot in winning the war on the ground. Also on the table (unless banned or removed in multiplayer) are logistics strike and strategic bombing. I don't usually advocate for strategic bombing in single player because the goal is usually to conquer those factories for yourself, but strategic bombing can be useful at times if you are playing an overall smaller country and want to even the industrial odds. It's usually not as good as just building CAS and plowing through enemy lines though. Unless you're the USA or a Germany incapable of naval invading the UK but winning the air war, strategic bombing is not usually worth investing in. Logistics strike can often have a more immediate impact on the enemy's quality of troops at the front and you can do it with the same planes that can do CAS missions, so it's usually a no-brainer to do Logistics strike when you can, especially while on the defensive.

At this point the air war is pretty much won, and you should be able to push on the ground with full help of CAS and logistics strike.

Lastly, there is one other decision that is relevant at all points of the game, and that is the question of range. If you're Japan or another country that has to fight in large air regions, investing in heavy fighters and tactical bombers instead of light fighters and CAS can be a wise decision. Light fighters gain a lot of range with drop tanks and with later tech, so it's not always necessary to go for heavy fighters. But in some situations it can be better to invest in high range.
 
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Znail

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There is one other reason to go muiltirole, small frame doesn't allow you to use all your weapon slots for CAS, meaning that adding some fighter weapons only cost the small extra production.
 
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Kanitatlan

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Something that hasn't been mentioned in this discussion is that if you design both your fighters and CAS on the basis of having a CAS weapon in the first slot (ie rockets for fighters) then you have an aircraft type that can be switched efficiently in production between the "multirole" fighter and "multirole" CAS variant with a much more limited production penalty than switching between actual fighters and CAS. Alternatively you can use the same logic with a fighter weapon in the first slot for both fighters and CAS. Any strategy where you are intending to switch production when you achieve air dominance is going to benefit significantly from this production flexibility.
 
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