Plan Z and other alternative strategies...

[seattle]

My last "appeasement"-game dates back to HoI1.
I kept peace until 1945. Fortunately I could then wipe out 529 russian divs with one nuke, otherwise it could have turned out to be a rather devastating experience for me.

Germany should start war between 1939 and 1940, no sooner, no later.
The Blitzkrieg tech-tree is the best in the early years, don't waste that advantage. There is no need to have a grand navy at the outbreak of war.
My experience tells me that it's best to start war in mid 1940 (with all assembly techs except for rockets researched, 1941 tanks and infantry techs).
You can easily conquer all of Europe between May 1940 and May 1941, then take out Russia and in the meantime focus on building a modern navy.
After Russia you will be able to field 20 carriers and so on.
Destroy the RN and USN in 1942/1943 and there you go.

 

[PackMan]

My last "appeasement"-game dates back to HoI1.
I kept peace until 1945. Fortunately I could then wipe out 529 russian divs with one nuke, otherwise it could have turned out to be a rather devastating experience for me.

Germany should start war between 1939 and 1940, no sooner, no later.
The Blitzkrieg tech-tree is the best in the early years, don't waste that advantage. There is no need to have a grand navy at the outbreak of war.
My experience tells me that it's best to start war in mid 1940 (with all assembly techs except for rockets researched, 1941 tanks and infantry techs).
You can easily conquer all of Europe between May 1940 and May 1941, then take out Russia and in the meantime focus on building a modern navy.
After Russia you will be able to field 20 carriers and so on.
Destroy the RN and USN in 1942/1943 and there you go.

Though I agree with you 100% on this being the "best" and most "efficient" way of whiping out your enemies (playing as Germany), I don't think that's what Alexander Seil ment. I think he reached out for an alternative perhaps more interesting path to get the upperhand...

Personally I tend to repeat the pattern you describe 8 out of 10 times when I play Germany.

 

[Alexander Seil]

My idea of an "efficient" strategy as Germany doesn't even involve a war with the Allies, which is what an alternative build-up plan would bessentially geared towards (that is , a grand air-sea battle versus the British Empire).

 

[seattle]

Personally I tend to repeat the pattern you describe 8 out of 10 times when I play Germany.

... and I thought my plan was rather original...

As for the Z-plan.
Doomsday finally enables you to abandon doctrines which in turn lets you develope the "Base Strike"-doctrine (USA).
Unfortunately neither Doenitz nor Raeder are suitable for researching it and the best techs are from 1942 onwards.
In my first DD-game as Germany I chose that path and thus neglecting important other techs (such as land and air).
Built up a massive fleet and still didn't notice a real difference between the old 1.03 vanilla surface fleet.
Somehow, back then it was easier to sink entire enemy fleets than it is today, even with the proper techs.
Somehow those allies are harder to get today than before.

_________________

If you want to go for late war then I would propose the following approach:
1. build between 15 and 20 factories each year (depending on difficulty setting)
2. conquer small nations on the way (Luxemburg, then Denmark - save game - Sweden, Norway, Finland - create Scandinavia if you get away with it, Yugoslawia, Bulgaria).
Ally with as many nations as possible.
Exploit the early conquest strategy with Hitler's perk of -0.2 belligerence peacetime-modifier.

 

[TheLand]

The ISH Battleships can take quite a pounding, but their screens can't, so I have to withdraw to port after every battle.

Have two fleets of screens.

 

[Permanganate]

Starting the war on the historical date is probably the best plan. The Soviet Union is strong and gets stronger over time...you cannot afford to give them past 1941 to build up, and preferably not past 1940. In MP, if you notice them doing a massive factory building programme, they're going to be totally unbeatable in 1942, and you'd better go in before 1939!

With the benefit of hindsight, the Z-Plan was not a good plan, and HoI2 does not simulate naval war very well, so there's little point in emulating it. Just build CV, DD, and TP, and get Base Strike blueprints from Japan.

 

[unmerged(38177)]

Germany's Z-plan consisted of building the Kriegsmarine up too.
- 13 battleships and battlecruisers
- 4 Carriers
- 15 Panzerschiffe
- 23 cruisers
- 22 Spähkreuzer
And hundreds of other smaller ships (destroyers, mine sweepers, tugs, et cetra)

Just for history (my source is long gone, but was on a german website):

Battleships (/ battlecruisers)
2 Scharnhorsts
2 Bismarcks
4 H-class, to be started 1939/1940 completed 1944
3 H-Class, to be started aprox 1943, completed 1947

Tank Ships...
3 existing "Pocket battleships"
12 P-Class heavy cruisers, production rate 4 every 3 years, start 1940
- Scheduled starts for 1940, 1942, 1944

Lt Cruisers.
5 existing
18 new, staggered production

Carriers.
4 CV.... 2 completions 1940 and 1942, 2 additional by 1947

 

[unmerged(53569)]

I think there are alot of big obstacles to delaying war as Germany.

One is the Dove move you are forced into by declining Danzig and declining the invasion of Norway. These forced dove moves can put a serious crunch on some of your naval build up....however, since it is DD and you have an extended time line I don't see why it cannot be overcome, it just keeps you from touching the Standing Army slider for a few more years really.

Another big problem is the SU may just be too uber to take by 1943. Therefore, you have to somehow take them out but not the Allies, but you aren't going to supply 200 divisions with convoys going into Elbing.....so you need Poland, so you cannot avoid war with the Allies. Perhaps getting Poland into the axis early is the solution there, but in that case SU will probably come after you in 1940.

The third problem I can think of is you cannot count on having France under wraps quickly in you wait until 1943 to attack them. You will not get Vichy quickly when the French have 120 divisions.....so you will be fighting a two front war with the SU on one side and American supported allies on the other and that war you may not win Navy or not.

 

[Moltke]

Did anyone ever try the historical German plan for a build-up phase lasting until 1943?

It seems like it would make for a very interesting war - a massive, technologically advanced German navy and airforce versus still larger Allied forces, and a possibly volatile and aggressive Soviet Union in the East...On the other hand, it is quite possible that the Allies would be busy in the Far East and unprepared for a general European war.

I actually did this, I did everything historical until Danzig where I chose to back down.

Japan conquered China in late 39. Europe was very quiet... I did eventually invade and annex Yugo without a peep from anyone. In 42 Japan attacked the Netherlands, UK, and USA simultaneously. As far as I can tell they are holding their own.

Meanwhile I had built 20 carriers, level 4, 5, and 6; dozens of level 5 cruisers, destroyers, and a handful of heavy cruisers. I was thinking about supplying them to Japan, but I haven't played that particular game in a week or so. My army consumes 800 supplies a day and I have so many options I can't decide what to do!

*As some of you have touched on though, the USSR is quite a beast. I outclass them by about 70 IC thanks to my early factory builds and Albert Speer, but no doubt they have a much bigger army. My spies say 240 infantry... which is 90 more than I have. I think the spies underestimate though.