Plan Z and other alternative strategies...

[Alexander Seil]

Did anyone ever try the historical German plan for a build-up phase lasting until 1943?

It seems like it would make for a very interesting war - a massive, technologically advanced German navy and airforce versus still larger Allied forces, and a possibly volatile and aggressive Soviet Union in the East...On the other hand, it is quite possible that the Allies would be busy in the Far East and unprepared for a general European war.

 

[blue emu]

Did anyone ever try the historical German plan for a build-up phase lasting until 1943?

I'm trying a major Naval build-up in my current 1936 German game... not sure how closely it corresponds to the Z-plan, though.

It's late '36, and I have four parallel runs of CV-III's going, one of BB-IV's, one of CA-IV's, one of CL-IV's, two of DD-III's, one of SS-III's, and one of CVL-I's.

Lots of Navy in the pipe-line... aside from that, I'm building only INT-III's, HQ's, AA-guns, convoys and escorts. Ground forces are waiting on new Techs.

 

[unmerged(44211)]

I'm trying a major Naval build-up in my current 1936 German game... not sure how closely it corresponds to the Z-plan, though.

It's late '36, and I have four parallel runs of CV-III's going, one of BB-IV's, one of CA-IV's, one of CL-IV's, two of DD-III's, one of SS-III's, and one of CVL-I's.

Lots of Navy in the pipe-line... aside from that, I'm building only INT-III's, HQ's, AA-guns, convoys and escorts. Ground forces are waiting on new Techs.

Germany's Z-plan consisted of building the Kriegsmarine up too.

- 13 battleships and battlecruisers
- 4 Carriers
- 15 Panzerschiffe
- 23 cruisers
- 22 Spähkreuzer

And hundreds of other smaller ships (destroyers, mine sweepers, tugs, et cetra)

 

[Alexander Seil]

More specifically, plan Z *was* the plan for naval build-up and nothing else. I am also suggesting beefing up the airforce and trying to get as far up the nuclear tech tree as humanly possible.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

it would not work very well. both american and russian land doctrine trees are beginning to be better than german. also by this time the russkies woudl have upgraded all of their troops. and in peace time all ai build ic.

also events in the game files have certain trigger dates that will trigger no matter what.

 

[unmerged(45491)]

Yeah there is no event to keep Japan from dowing the US and allies which allows them to fully gear for war, and wreck your chances of pulling ahead.

 

[unmerged(30761)]

I would venture a guess that you might suffer from a case of severe indecisivness, may be prone to procrastination and like to save and reload.
When i play '36 campaign I am willing to shoot myself it takes so long to gear up. But then again there is no other way i know to have the usa go axis.

Now, I am not a psychiatrist, and this is not a diagnosis

 

[Mahrabal]

I am not convinced you can become a dominant naval power as germany becasue the US will easily outproduce you, they will have doctrines and Russia will DOW you if you don't DOW them first so you will need to have a significant and modern land force ready. I do believe you can defeat the RN, but only if you start soon becasue once they research some doctrines their carriers will pwn, so if you beat them down early I reckon you can keep them down.

I have a german naval question.
I want to complete sealion and conquer eire. I also want to grab some on the islands in the med and get Iceland (before I go for kolding). How many convoys/escorts will I need to keep these areas supplied?

 

[unmerged(55451)]

Germany gave up the Z-Plan in 41, I think, and set a new focus on U-Boots. They tried to build the "Graf Zeppelin" air carrier, but never finished. After the war, it was used as a restaurant and later sunk.

 

[unmerged(51738)]

I am not convinced you can become a dominant naval power as germany becasue the US will easily outproduce you, they will have doctrines and Russia will DOW you if you don't DOW them first so you will need to have a significant and modern land force ready. I do believe you can defeat the RN, but only if you start soon becasue once they research some doctrines their carriers will pwn, so if you beat them down early I reckon you can keep them down.

I have a german naval question.
I want to complete sealion and conquer eire. I also want to grab some on the islands in the med and get Iceland (before I go for kolding). How many convoys/escorts will I need to keep these areas supplied?

I usually do just one series of transports, starting from '37 to '41, never got problems even with 3-4 oversea-fronts at the same time. Escorts the same, butcut off earlier.

 

[unmerged(48068)]

Yeah there is no event to keep Japan from dowing the US and allies which allows them to fully gear for war, and wreck your chances of pulling ahead.

Really? Just trying do to just that, playing Aug 1940 USA and still on best terms with Japan, lets see how long this will work.
In HOI2 I played a similar setup with drawing a pacific perimeter while keeping diplomacy and economic relations with Japan open door and extending my influence in Latin America meanwhile. As far as I remember I supported the Brits in Europe, bashed Nazi Germany myself in 44 and still the Japanese stayed to mainland Asia.

 

[Zebedee]

Just done it as Germany - I have not made a single sub and currently have no subs in the Kriegsmarine.

Vichy November 1939. Sealion April 1940. Bitter Peace July 1942. China July 1944.

USA beats me on doctrines but I out-tech them on CV class. I also outnumber them. They've barely got an army after several bridgeheads on the Indian sub-continent were snipped off. Invasion of USA is just beginning as I'm island hopping across the Pacific so I can annex the UK and Netherlands while I'm at it.

Kriegsmarine in August 1944 consists of (roughly) 20 CVs (16 more on their way), 5 BBs, 20 CAs, 30 CLs and a lot of DDs. 10 NAVs ought to be mentioned too I guess - although they are in stacks of 2 and operating in different areas to avoid 'gameiness'. Got 100 manpower and 40k oil left. WC by 1947 maybe.

 

[unmerged(55727)]

I focused on Super Heavy Battleships, and now, in 1945, I have about 13 of them, 10 of which is Improved SH, and a lot of Semi-Modern CL. I haven't been able to do Sealion yet, though I've all but wiped out the RN, according to my spies. arbarossa has been put on hold indefinately, but _all_ of Africa is Axis or axis controlled by now. Half of India has fallen to the Japs, and most of the Philipines too. The Mediterranean is an Axis sea now, and Jugoslavia will follow soon.

The ISH Battleships can take quite a pounding, but their screens can't, so I have to withdraw to port after every battle.

 

[Alexander Seil]

I think my thread title was somewhat misleading, I was more referring to a general than exclusively naval build-up (with no war) lasting until 1943. If you build exclusively industry until 1939, you may be able to compete with the Allies in the long run, as the Allies will be crippled by peace-time modifiers until 1943. Even if they do go to war against Japan, that only means that whatever output gains they will have from that war will have to be devoted to the Pacific theater, rather than Europe. I'm not saying it will be easier than the traditional approach, of course.

And, Tarakan, while I am sure you are not a psychiatrist, you may well be a psycho. Just a thought...

 

[unmerged(55727)]

You can't avoid having the allies gearing up a little, as you HAVE to remilitarize the Rheinland or suffer permanent dissent. Also, taking Czechoslovakia and Austria helps your IC quite a lot.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Even after Czechoslovakia and Austria, the Allies are not fully geared-up and won't be until late 1941, possibly 1942, if Japan DOWs (which isn't certain). The question is whether in relative terms Austrian and Czech industries allow you to stay ahead of the Allied build-up. There may be some justification for skipping those altogether.

 

[PackMan]

Is there any hardcoded event that triggers the allies to DoW you if you settles with getting Austria? I'm pretty convinced I've tried a similary strat as you describe Alexander (alteast up until 1941 without the allies DoW'ing me).

If you've tasted victory the same way over and over it's always fun to approach the game in a different angle.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Whomever posted about an event that makes the Allies DOW Axis is simply wrong. It's up to Germany when to start a European war, although it can start as early as October, 1938 if you are unlucky. The last event in the "pre-war" chain is Danzig or War, which is up to Germany to press, and Poland can *still* agree to German demands (although that is unlikely).

 

[unmerged(55727)]

Speaking of which, Germany can't demand territory of Poland if they are allies.
Allying with Poland before 1939 is quite easy.

 

[Alexander Seil]

Danzig or War triggers if Poland is Allied, and that is the only event that can give Germany cores on Polish provinces.