PLAN BARBAROSSA / GREAT PATRIOTIC WAR: Who is stronger in multiplayer - SOV or GER?

[LodovicoAriosto]

Hi guys,

the question is quite simple to understand but harder to answer. I have these points:

GER strengths

+ easily optimized sliders (many historical events move to hawk and interventionism)
+ Excellent tech teams (especially important techs - assembly lines)
+ Much IC for free in time of massive construction of units (Austria, CZE, Poland, Netherlands, Belgium, France)
+ better espionage (smear campaigns, sab. tech teams...it can hurt
+ usually very powerful Luftwaffe (bombing routed units...) although the fact is forced by low manpower for building other units

GER weaknesses

- lower manpower than SOV (usual max growth around 1.5 versus Soviet 2.5; much time with low manpower growth in 1936-1938)
- more partisan activity
- must protect many beaches in Normandy, Italy and Greece against possible British or US invasions
- tends to have smaller oil stockpile than SOV

SOV strengths

+ high manpower in both growth and absolute numbers (see above about German manpower)
+ Gearing bonus
+ can have quite good sliders with Blue Emu's "Albanian, Polish, Danish etc. gambit" (maxed out interventionism by 39, 3 slider moves saved for standing army)
+ depth of territory (Transfer to Siberia -> Germany - partisan activity, overwhelmed TC)
+ can stockpile much oil from the US

SOV weaknesses

- bad tech teams (problems with assembly lines, air doctrines, land doctrines)
- slower production of armors in the crucial years 1939-1941
- tends to have more manpower losses in battle compared to GER (mostly due to large numbers of plain infantry) which partly compensates Soviet manpower supremacy
- cannot afford to build many airplanes, bad air doctrines - leads to manpower losses from bombing


Other things to consider:
- SOV switching to Spearhead?
- GER invasion of the British Isles?
- effect of military control over the allies (Romania, Bulgaria, Italy, Mongolia...)


My general point of view favorites hard and mobile core (around 50 armors) of the Red Army, not militia-based strategies. Massive use of militia is IMO feasible only for Nationalist China.

 

[unmerged(25131)]

Never tried, but I bet that if I met myself in a game, Russia would win. Long war probably. I think Germany would penetrate deep but never come close to actually winning, thanks to TC. Like in RL.

 

[cucurbitulae]

ACtually, in single player the best way to defeat SU is to encircle troops, thus, until reaching the volga river, one is expected to destroy about two thirds of Russian army. In multiplayer, no human player would allow that, and after 1,5 years or so, can bring overwhelming numbers in front of Germany. It is very hard for SU to lose in this occasion since it practically does not run out of manpower, IC, supplies and territory. The winter only adds up to the defense...
IMHO, Russia should win not quickly but easily.

 

[unmerged(132371)]

Very good question. Depends how deep and how fast the GER attack goes. Once the GDE of USSR comes up it is a new game. How much manpower and resources are lost assuming a Moscow to stalingrad to Grozny line of conquest. I know there is a lot of coal and metal in the Ukraine and rares north of the Caspian sea. If USSR loses these how much IC can be supported and with these how much IC can GER support.

 

[ve3609]

I think air power would be the decisive factor. If Germany can force SU divisions into encirclements b/c of interdiction/Ground attack missions and destroy them Germany could win. Also, I think the caucauses will be very important, if Germany can deprive the USSR of their oil, it'll make the game much easier for Germany

 

[LodovicoAriosto]

Yes, for a long war it is vital for SOV to stockpile at least 300k energy, 100k metal (loss of Ukrainian resources lead to huge negative balance in energy and metal).

In my games, Baku plays usually a minor role since both players stockpile several hundreds of thousand oil from the US, Venezuela, Persia, Romania...

 

[unmerged(189386)]

Historic vs Not

I find in a lot of multiplayer games the Soviet-German war doesn't really happen.

Neither side has incentives to open up that front when the Soviets have great opportunities to crush China, Japan and South-Asia, while Germany is happy to avoid fighting a war that is difficult for it to win without significant help from Italy or Japan.

The situation tends to be ahistorical by 1941 with the 1936 start anyways, I mean it all goes south when the UK and the US ally republican spain.

If the war does actually occur, I find Germany is usually in much worse shape as unless you are playing a mod or one of France/Britain is an AI who won't stop you in France. If Both France and Britain are human controlled, one tends to see a lot of British troops supporting the French positions, where the defensive line has been properly extended.

Without the suicidal AI attacks it is very hard for Germany to win against that tandem. Particularly since the allied fleet superiority tends to crush any attempt at forcing many English troops back to the mainland by transporting German troops there.

 

[{LD}Firestorm]

Everytime I've played against a Human Soviet, they always strat redeployed out of soon-to-be pockets (very gamey, I stopped playing with those people).

The one time I played as the Soviets, I built a fort wall from Estonia to the Crimea. Let him run up against it, then did massive pincers that took out 60% of his army, and drove for Berlin. It was the perfect time for him to run out of oil and MP too.

Peaced, for gameplay sake, only to be at war 10 years later yet again. This time, it was nukes, but I had more

 

[unmerged(194877)]

I played my last official game of HOI II the other day. Everything went great for me. I was Germany, a friend was the USA, and another was the UK. Our USSR player dropped out at the last second so I figured, I have this game in the bag. Everything went according to plan, all the right events fired, rolled over Poland, and France. Slapped Yugoslavia around, and trapped the Brit Mountain divisions in Greece. I decided to wait to attack the USSR until I had the right amount of armor and infantry to cover flanks, however this took longer than I wanted it to, since I was busy pumping out interceptors. Which in the long run probably lost me the game. So as I wrested control of the skys from the Allies, it was the spring of 42, and the USSR DOWs me. Thats ok. Since then the Allies have been trying to contain the Japanese, Italians, and my sub fleet. So, the Allies lost strategic control of the Pacific, and the Japanese have landed in Australia. There is a strong American garrison at Guam that is tying down almost the whole American fleet keeping the convoy lanes open. My 2 naval bomber fleets are making the UK pay dearly in the Atlantic, in combination with my sub fleet.

In the SU, I launch 16 panzer divisions backed up with about 9 mtn, and nearly 90 infantry infantry divisions to crack a whole in the center of their front around the Pripyat marshes. After a whole summer campaign gone, its October of 42 and I've gained little or no ground, for a loss of about 550 manpower. Precious manpower in this game. In the Spring of 42 the Italians join me too. But the UK was prepared, and so they gave alot of ground. I sent 3 tac bomber squadrons and it made the UK pay for every inch of ground. In the summer of 42 I also began regularly bombing England with rockets, knocking about 75 IC off for a few weeks, to a cost of about 33 IC to me.

Throughout the winter of 42/43, the SU pounded my lines. I became ground down in a war of attrition. In 42, with the influx of about 125 axis divisions, I was able to advance towards the Kiev and the Crimea in the south, and Minsk and Riga in the north. It was a very costly advance, as now the US was involved in the air war over Western Europe. Which meant I had to continue to pumping out interceptors, at the detriment to my ground forces. In anycase, I was crippling the RN, and scaring the US into over committing in the Alantic....ill write more later....

 

[unmerged(194877)]

I played my last official game of HOI II the other day. Everything went great for me. I was Germany, a friend was the USA, and another was the UK. Our USSR player dropped out at the last second so I figured, I have this game in the bag. Everything went according to plan, all the right events fired, rolled over Poland, and France. Slapped Yugoslavia around, and trapped the Brit Mountain divisions in Greece. I decided to wait to attack the USSR until I had the right amount of armor and infantry to cover flanks, however this took longer than I wanted it to, since I was busy pumping out interceptors. Which in the long run probably lost me the game. So as I wrested control of the skys from the Allies, it was the spring of 42, and the USSR DOWs me. Thats ok. Since then the Allies have been trying to contain the Japanese, Italians, and my sub fleet. So, the Allies lost strategic control of the Pacific, and the Japanese have landed in Australia. There is a strong American garrison at Guam that is tying down almost the whole American fleet keeping the convoy lanes open. My 2 naval bomber fleets are making the UK pay dearly in the Atlantic, in combination with my sub fleet.

In the SU, I launch 16 panzer divisions backed up with about 9 mtn, and nearly 90 infantry infantry divisions to crack a whole in the center of their front around the Pripyat marshes. After a whole summer campaign gone, its October of 42 and I've gained little or no ground, for a loss of about 550 manpower. Precious manpower in this game. In the Spring of 42 the Italians join me too. But the UK was prepared, and so they gave alot of ground. I sent 3 tac bomber squadrons and it made the UK pay for every inch of ground. In the summer of 42 I also began regularly bombing England with rockets, knocking about 75 IC off for a few weeks, to a cost of about 33 IC to me.

Throughout the winter of 42/43, the SU pounded my lines. I became ground down in a war of attrition. In 42, with the influx of about 125 axis divisions, I was able to advance towards the Kiev and the Crimea in the south, and Minsk and Riga in the north. It was a very costly advance, as now the US was involved in the air war over Western Europe. Which meant I had to continue to pumping out interceptors, at the detriment to my ground forces. In anycase, I was crippling the RN, and scaring the US into over committing in the Alantic....ill write more later....

 

[Bummy]

On our games (I'm pretty much as good as they are too) and games have been UK, Ger and SOV but interesting thing is that the Germany have nearly always won, no matter who has played it. It is so much better in -40-41 than Soviets by doctrines and by -42 it can easily get its manpower growth nearly to 2 with that 25% MP minister. I have faced that Germany is really hard to win as Soviets even with 500 divisions and with armors and interceptor force.

 

[midget_roxx]

Boy do I have some advice for you :

PARATROOPERS. Seriously they really win games especially against UK if they're not expecting it. In MP you have to be gamey to win as Germany. Do the usual 3 serial runs of IC to boost that IC of yours and focus on INF and ARM. MOT, while handy, don't really have that punch as ARM but build some anyway to get that combined arms bonus which can turn battles, especailly when defending.

Now I'm not sure on how many players you have but it seems that there is a US, UK and SU player. US shouldn't join too early (1942/3+) but when they do make sure you're ready in France because it will be nasty.

When doing the attacks on Poland try and do it within weeks so you can move ASAP onto France. The extra IC from France and air bases will really help along the war effort for SU. If you can take out UK quick enough the do so, but it will be in Winter so watch out there. Now a really neat (and gamey ) tactic is to land paratroopers into Cardiff (doesnt have a beach so no garrison) and quickely rushing 20 Divs into the province. If the UK isn't expecting it then you can cut off a lot of their forces and effectively remove them from the game.

For SU it can either be a real stalemate or a slow advance. Totally depends on how well the SU player is and how well you play. Try to go for the Pripet marshes encirclement and in the south around Sevestapol. Now the biggest problem that the SU will do is defence in depth. This seriously plans for an encirclement so you will have to attack all your armour into a big blob for it to survive the onslaught from the Russians. Again paratroopers will be invaluble for making that sneaky encirclement where the SU player thought he was safe.

For your air force bomb the infrastructure to absolute shit. This is another game deciding factor in Barborassa. Having the SU regain ORG at a 1/10 of yours means you can constantly keep attacking, while they struggle just to get their ORG back. Don't bother with ground attack and sometimes Interdiction because the SU player will have their INF in big stacks which seriously hurts your planes for little gain.

Make amphibious assualts into Finalnd and Leningrad if you can support a navy in the baltic. If the SU player has all his troops at the border you can easily amphib assualt and do some serious damage to his supply which will have him freaking out and you will also gain a pshocological advantage .

Just some things to watch out for: You ally Italy is a piece of trash and will get eaten up easily by UK if you're not careful.
SU player can do a very nasty trick. Since you have a non-agression pact (if you sign the Ribbeton-Molotov), the SU player can DoW on Slovakia which forces you to declare war on them. This will give you 5% dissent and an open path for SU to eat up Germany and Poland. If this happens bomb the hell out of the infrastructure to slow down his advance.

For navy don't really bother since UK or US will easily outclass you and destroy whatever you have. Just spam subs for holding UK in the channel so you can get your troops across if you plan to invade UK

Oh and using Military Control is an excellent way of holding France so make sure those Hungarians and Romanians get work done. Make sure Italy doesn't stack 100000 divs into North Afrika as it's completely useless in HOI2 (besides the Suez of course)

 

[LodovicoAriosto]

PARATROOPERS. Seriously they really win games especially against UK if they're not expecting it.

Yes. Against the human UK they can be surprising. I was rather wondering who is stronger in one-on-one battle GER vs SOV.

MOT, while handy, don't really have that punch as ARM but build some anyway to get that combined arms bonus which can turn battles, especailly when defending.

I am not a fan of MOTs. They are viable only if you cannot afford enough ARMs for emergency defense moves.

For your air force bomb the infrastructure to absolute shit. This is another game deciding factor in Barborassa.

This is my nightmare in the MP duel because I play SOV. I decided not to build a single aircraft so infra bombing will hurt. I hope that the GER player won't use it much and will rely on less useful ground attack or interdiction.

SU player can do a very nasty trick. Since you have a non-agression pact (if you sign the Ribbeton-Molotov), the SU player can DoW on Slovakia which forces you to declare war on them. This will give you 5% dissent and an open path for SU to eat up Germany and Poland.

Nice but we play a strictly historical game which means that Barbarossa starts on 22nd June 41. I can use the guarantee gambit only.



Anyway, thanks for advice.

 

[unmerged(160706)]

Hello,

alright, the answer to your question very much depends on the given situation. You already told us that you are playing a historical game, also assuming all major countries (including National Spain) are actually controlled by humans, I would say Germany is way stronger then the SU.

Here is why. Although it is true that the MP growth of the SU is higher than the one of germany this is mostly offset by the Doctrine path. Soviet doctrine pushes you to wave attacks, so at least once, normally more often you will attack a (in terms of organisation) superior enemy and your losses will be heavier. Also Germany has way higher IC after the fall of France (although a big part of that is consumed against the british). And normally you also deal with another 50 Italian Mountaineer divisions in the Caucasus. The SU is a very important part in an MP but it will seldomly be the main cause for victory (i.e. pushing Germany on its own back). The main role is to hold off the Germans long enough so that the US can intervene in Europe or in Africa, freeing Suez and thus threatening Italy directly. So it mainly has to buy some time for the western Allies.

 

[LodovicoAriosto]

the answer to your question very much depends on the given situation.

Two human players - GER and SOV.

Almost exact historical route - GER can defeat POL, FRA, BEL, NET, LUX, DEN, NOR, no invasion to AI Britain (!), GER can have military control over HUN, BUL and ROM (no control of ITA), cannot invite Japan to Axis

SOV cannot annex FIN in Winter war, can control MON and TAN military, can use guarantees to raise interventionism

In this setup, AI Italy is likely to lose in Africa.

Barbarossa - start on 22nd June 41

your losses will be heavier.

Yes. The only way to avoid this is to build as many ARMs as I can. But I still need at least 300 INF divs by summer 41.

I plan to build cca 20 ARMs and 300 INF and no planes for the initial defense. I will save 1000 manpower for later use, primarily for ARMs, reinforcements and INTs.

Also Germany has way higher IC after the fall of France

Hmmm, higher IC allows him to build 30+ ARMs and 30+ airplanes. In this context I am worried about two situations:

1. 50 German ARMs could be a problem
2. Infra bombing can cripple my higher org regain

 

[unmerged(160706)]

I would worry very much about the second point.
Infrastructure bombing can just totally cripple you and since the DR player is not obliged to maintain huge airstack against UK, he will almost surely have air superiority.

Doing Infrastructure bombing will give him an oppurtunity to conducted a successful offensive in the Ukraine and may be he can even cut off the caucasus from the north.
As long as you are not controlling Persia this is a huge probelm.
In 42 he can mop up the rest since you probably had already quite some losses in the south

 

[KevinG]

1 on 1 in unmodded HOI2 there is no denying that Germany will beat a USSR every single time unless the USSR player is better skill wise. The answer is pretty simple: there is no way the USSR can contest the skies and unmodded CAS attacks will kill every moving stack. In terms of ground forces Germany has a HUGE lead in GDE and doctrines and can get almost numerical parity in 41 so there's just no way the soviets can win with inferior everything and only a few dozen more obsolete infantry divs.

Germany loses a lot in MP cuz its allies are more like minor nations than majors. The Allies have 3x the IC of Italy/Japan so Germany has to spend a lot of its IC fighting the Allies AND the Soviets.

 

[B. Rodriguez]

Germany loses a lot in MP cuz its allies are more like minor nations than majors. The Allies have 3x the IC of Italy/Japan so Germany has to spend a lot of its IC fighting the Allies AND the Soviets.

Hmm. Sounds strangely familiar......

 

[midget_roxx]

Yes. Against the human UK they can be surprising. I was rather wondering who is stronger in one-on-one battle GER vs SOV.

Germany. So much potential for other gains against the AI which the SU player just doesn't have. Higher IC means more ARM and TAC's which is what you need against SU

 

[unmerged(194877)]

So anyway, I lost the war. The SU was AI controlled. Thats why it was so weird for me. They kept me in check. And the year and a half that I was on the offensive with them broke me. I couldnt reinforce my units. I was very tempted to invade the UK while they where tied down in Asia, but I just didnt do it. Then I knew for sure the US was going forward with its nuclear program. I was too, and was ahead for a while. Then I got stumped when I realized the rules where different for DD. I had accumulated 3 nukes, but I couldn't load them onto my strat rockets.

So the SU is at the gates of Berlin, I'm holding them. At that point my only goal was to ensure the Allies(the 2 human controlled players) did not land in the West. They where repelled in southern France, and then tried Italy. Here they succeeded in landing nearly 50 division in southern France. My last reserve, 30 divisions of full strength and battle hardened panzer and infantry divisions where ready to meet them in Italy. Our first major land engagement. In less than 2 weeks, I annihilated the Allies and threw them back into the Mediterranean.The Brits lost almost 20 divisions, the US lost almost 10. A few days later my reactor in the Sudeten mountains fell, and then Berlin fell. Some event popped up which forced me to surrender, and that was that. I think I beat the Allies, but the AI controlled SU whipped my ass. This hasn't happened in a very long time. So it was a blah game.