We are not talking about any of those things, exactly, this comes under industry standard for both Paradox and strategy games as a whole. They chose not put the feature in then there was demand for it so they put it back but at a cost.
Pings and Minimap are payed content?
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Just treat it like an old HOI3 expansion. If you don't pay for it you don't get the patches.
So what? As far as DLC practices go, Paradox actually tries to make sure their content has good value. What other company would have enlarged a season pass because they thought it wasn't giving enough value (and I really wish I bought it as a result)? Waking the Tiger has a ton of content, it's more than worth it. Not to mention it'll have been 20 months since release, they clearly never planned originally to have a mini-map, so it's not as if they're adding something they cut out to put back in later. Podcat didn't want it in originally, but because of some interest in it, they put resources into adding it. There is nothing wrong with charging money for that, especially when Waking the Tiger is probably the largest expansion they've done since they transitioned to their current post-release content strategy. WTT could cost $30 USD and I think it would be good value still (it's better value than Civ. 6's recent expansion, which is $30).
I play hoi4, therefore I buy hoi4 dlc.
It will never be a question of “do I want this dlc, or am I satisfied with right game as is?”
It will always be, “am I still playing the game? Then I’ll get the dlc.”
With that I am not sitting their pro-rating every feature and assessing if my $2.78 that went into the stability system was worth it.
I play hoi4, so I buy new content as it is released...I don’t really see how it is more complicated than that.
I guess what I’m saying is, in a cynical way (?), I don’t see myself getting a free patch. I see myself as paying $15 for the latest content. The latest content is the dlc and patch. I can justify the allocation of money (in my head) however I want, since I will never be getting just the patch...it’s all moot.
It will never be a question of “do I want this dlc, or am I satisfied with right game as is?”
It will always be, “am I still playing the game? Then I’ll get the dlc.”
With that I am not sitting their pro-rating every feature and assessing if my $2.78 that went into the stability system was worth it.
I play hoi4, so I buy new content as it is released...I don’t really see how it is more complicated than that.
I guess what I’m saying is, in a cynical way (?), I don’t see myself getting a free patch. I see myself as paying $15 for the latest content. The latest content is the dlc and patch. I can justify the allocation of money (in my head) however I want, since I will never be getting just the patch...it’s all moot.
While I will buy Waking the Tiger for the other features and the massive changes that it will make to the game, this sort of behavior is the reason why I've often considered not buying Paradox games anymore. The fact than an industry and genre standard like a minimap is put behind a paywall is very disheartening and frankly money grubbing.
And for those who are going to say that the Paradox needs to make money, all I have to say is "No Really". But this isn't going to make or break their profit from the expansion. Waking the Tiger is already by far the most anticipated Hoi4 expansion and one of the most anticipated Paradox products in general. Its going to sell well no matter what and acting like asking that an industry standard be part of the free patch is such a terrible thing is just plain anti consumer. Making the minimap and pings free is not going to mean the will devs starve or are going to be out of a job, and if you really believe that, no offense but I'm going to have to ask what reality you live in. This is one of the minor features of what is a massive expansion and if was free it would not affect sales at all or to an extremely negligible degree.
I understand the enthusiasm and appreciation people have for Paradox, and I share it to some degree, but you still have to think as a consumer and not a fan. Nobody else is looking out for you as a consumer except you. (And before someone says the government does, no they don't, anything they do is because the general citizenry are sometimes powerful enough to force them to do consumer friendly things. The government does not inherently want to take care of the average citizen in this field or any other.)
EDIT: Just fixed my grammar
And for those who are going to say that the Paradox needs to make money, all I have to say is "No Really". But this isn't going to make or break their profit from the expansion. Waking the Tiger is already by far the most anticipated Hoi4 expansion and one of the most anticipated Paradox products in general. Its going to sell well no matter what and acting like asking that an industry standard be part of the free patch is such a terrible thing is just plain anti consumer. Making the minimap and pings free is not going to mean the will devs starve or are going to be out of a job, and if you really believe that, no offense but I'm going to have to ask what reality you live in. This is one of the minor features of what is a massive expansion and if was free it would not affect sales at all or to an extremely negligible degree.
I understand the enthusiasm and appreciation people have for Paradox, and I share it to some degree, but you still have to think as a consumer and not a fan. Nobody else is looking out for you as a consumer except you. (And before someone says the government does, no they don't, anything they do is because the general citizenry are sometimes powerful enough to force them to do consumer friendly things. The government does not inherently want to take care of the average citizen in this field or any other.)
EDIT: Just fixed my grammar
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I agree, the developers will not starve if the minimap is a free feature. The question is just, why would they do it? Would they sell more copies of WTT if the minimap was suddenly a free feature?
I mean let's take a look at OP's argument:
He seems really dedicated. This argument is a Paradox: "I am gonna buy it, if I get it for free".
And sure no one is looking out for consumers, but consumers are not looking out for the people behind a company either, OP's post kinda proofs this thesis. Most people just see "(Big) company = Bad".
I mean let's take a look at OP's argument:
He seems really dedicated. This argument is a Paradox: "I am gonna buy it, if I get it for free".
And sure no one is looking out for consumers, but consumers are not looking out for the people behind a company either, OP's post kinda proofs this thesis. Most people just see "(Big) company = Bad".
I am a FM edition owner so I get everything, but I am definitely annoyed that the minimap and pinging were paid features. I have complained about it before but damn. It's such a standard strategy UI feature, and minimaps have been in most previous paradox titles. This expansion already has plenty of value in the paid features compared to the somewhat anemic Death or Dishonor, I get the thinking that they need to have features included to make the expansion seem worth it but in this instance, with the full contents laid bare, it's just not necessary.
I think I remember @podcat saying in the Dev Diary about this that the reason the minimap and pinging are paid features is because Chain of Command is a free feature, and they had to include the former two in the DLC to balance the content.
They explicit said they made the game without a minimap in mind, they don't use it, don't see it as necessary but put it in because a part of the community wanted it. This is the far a feature can be of "essential cut content" even the devs themselves said it is superfluous.
I don't understand why the OP got so many disagrees for this. Both pings and minimaps are basic features in my eyes, and also have always been in PDX games. The "something needs to be in the DLCs" excuse is so thin, too. As if there was a lack of features they could put in DLCs.
Would make more sense for CoC to be a DLC feature to be honest.
Maybe from your point of view, but probably not from the developers point of view.
When you look at how complex the CoC feature is maintaining 2 separate versions of the CoC would very likely be a nightmare, leading to alot fewer features in future expansions ( as they have to do double work to everything including AI on both the free version and DLC version of CoC ). This in turn leads to more future fans being angry that too few things being in the free patches and too many things in paid DLCs.
CoC as a paid feature would raise an even greater stink, and rightfully so. I'd argue it's far more a core feature of the series than a minimap, since it actually effects gameplay, and not how much you have to scroll with your mouse.
I guess because other people don't agree with that opinion. I have never noticed it wasn't there and have not felt it's absence. The "this feature is objectively necessary and I will boycott all future products over it's inclusion as a paid extension feature" here is probably part of the reason for the disagrees, it certainly was a large factor in my disagree marking.
There's a dev diary floating around where they said something along the lines of "if a feature is wanted by some of the players and others couldn't care less, that's prime for a DLC feature".
People complained from day one there was no mini map in HOI4, and now they are complaining because it is being added as a feature in a DLC that has so much content and is so game changing you are playing a completely new game?
/facepalm
/facepalm
Of the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of copies that were sold, there are a dozen or so people who claim they know what is best: what should be paid or free.
While the remaining silent majority are millions of decebalus louder than ya'll will ever be with every post you make.
Speaking for myself (and hopefully others) I trust Podcat, the team and PDX to decide what is paid and free. They have been nothing but upfront, communicative, hard working, game loving, fan base friendly for years now. For me to have to think that now, all of a sudden, after all this time, after all their success, they all have turned into money grubbing, price gouging, fan hating, customer hating people overnight is IMHO, moronically ridiculous.
You want to talk about other game companies and other people acting the way you insinuate, being anything but upfront and forthright, I may be able to get on board with that. However, Podcat, the team & PDX set the bar. By any standard PDX is as highly regarded as it gets in the gaming community.
No offense, but I will 100% of the time know they are correct and you are incorrect on this subject
This is of course just my opinion and as we all know opinions are like butt holes, everybody has one.
While the remaining silent majority are millions of decebalus louder than ya'll will ever be with every post you make.
Speaking for myself (and hopefully others) I trust Podcat, the team and PDX to decide what is paid and free. They have been nothing but upfront, communicative, hard working, game loving, fan base friendly for years now. For me to have to think that now, all of a sudden, after all this time, after all their success, they all have turned into money grubbing, price gouging, fan hating, customer hating people overnight is IMHO, moronically ridiculous.
You want to talk about other game companies and other people acting the way you insinuate, being anything but upfront and forthright, I may be able to get on board with that. However, Podcat, the team & PDX set the bar. By any standard PDX is as highly regarded as it gets in the gaming community.
No offense, but I will 100% of the time know they are correct and you are incorrect on this subject
This is of course just my opinion and as we all know opinions are like butt holes, everybody has one.
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The only time i've griped about content being put behind a paywall, that I was going to buy anyway, was the addition of Development in EU IV's Common Sense DLC.
Pings and a Minimap don't compare on the same level as a Core Mechanic that allows you to improve your Nation in ways other than Expansion. Hell when they released it, they also changed the math surrounding buildings from a base value to a percent, which meant high development was the only effective way to use most of them. It was a pretty significant addition that you had to pay money to get access to.
When I mostly play Single Player, a Ping system that the AI won't even use to notify me of things just doesn't register on a level of "Essential Must Have".
Pings and a Minimap don't compare on the same level as a Core Mechanic that allows you to improve your Nation in ways other than Expansion. Hell when they released it, they also changed the math surrounding buildings from a base value to a percent, which meant high development was the only effective way to use most of them. It was a pretty significant addition that you had to pay money to get access to.
When I mostly play Single Player, a Ping system that the AI won't even use to notify me of things just doesn't register on a level of "Essential Must Have".
Like I've said before: I am fine paying for the continued development of this game. I don't pay for a DLC just to get certain content, I pay to also make sure that future content is provided. Even if the minimap and the pinging were in the free patch, you still would have indirectly paid for it by purchasing the previous DLC, and by paying for this DLC you increase the chance that a Naval-revamp is coming. Stop paying and those free patches stop coming, too, eventually.