Ping-pong-passing in peace conferences

[General Dookie]

Yesterday we had a 3 guy LAN-session playing the Czech Entente (v.1.7 Hydra beta [d12e]). We won against the axis with the help of the allies.
After a long and hard fight it was time to split the cake.
First we thought it was bugged in multiplayer, but soon we recognized it's intended:

"The country with the highest score gets to make demands first. From then on the turn passes to whichever other country has the highest remaining score. This means that lower scoring countries may never get their turn if higher scoring countries pass frequently or have enough score from the beginning to take everything."
Source: https://hoi4.paradoxwikis.com/Peace_conference#Turns

I don't really get the idea of the possibility to ping-pong-pass with the second best nation, resulting in both getting nearly infinite warscore and thus most of their demands. My friends were super frustrated about this, because they were close regarding the participation, but being the third and fourth you nearly get nothing from that conference.

Why doesn't passing lead to every other nation to have their turn, then starting over from the top of scores in the new order again?
Or is the whole thing indeed broken? Because everything was resolved in only 1 big turn (with a lot of passes).

Please help me get the idea of those weired peace conference rules. Or is it just bad design? It's a very critical core mechanic, so it should work fine!

 

[Mr_Dimento]

Because Hungary being allowed to eat up all of the Soviet Union would not be a good idea when germany did all the work

 

[NormieCamo]

Because Hungary being allowed to eat up all of the Soviet Union would not be a good idea when germany did all the work

I think what he's saying is that apparently the first two players can lock everyone else out of the peace conference by passing back and forth. Say player 1 has 803 points, player 2 has 802 and player 3 has 801, the first two can pass back and forth gaining points without allowing player 3 to gain any points from passing. The first two can gather enough points to grab everything and give player 3 nothing, despite having almost identical war participation to start.

 

[Adolf - Finite War]

Because peace conferences are still bonkers. No nation should be forced to give up territory that's claimed and occupied by its troops - sure it might result in further war goals for opponents (causing world tension is probably enough after a major war for that) but if the USSR conquered Germany by itself what but another war or the threat of one would make it give up its prize?
Or if a Nationalist China starts a war against the USSR while Barbarossa is underway why would it accept that Mongolia becomes a fascist satellite of Italy rather than keeping its conquest?

 

[Meglok]

The peace conference system is not optimal and could use some work. There are a few mods out there that help fix some of the issues. Player led peace conferences and enhanced peace conferences iirc.

 

[General Dookie]

I think what he's saying is that apparently the first two players can lock everyone else out of the peace conference by passing back and forth. Say player 1 has 803 points, player 2 has 802 and player 3 has 801, the first two can pass back and forth gaining points without allowing player 3 to gain any points from passing. The first two can gather enough points to grab everything and give player 3 nothing, despite having almost identical war participation to start.

This was exactly what I was complaining about. Thanks for clarifying!

The peace conference system is not optimal and could use some work. There are a few mods out there that help fix some of the issues. Player led peace conferences and enhanced peace conferences iirc.

Unfortunately both mods doesn't help with the ping-pong problem.

So how do you get to turn 2 in a peace conference?
I tried passing and finishing.
As you can see in my screenshot, everything is handled in only 1 turn. It's a loooong list of actions, and I never see a turn 2.
Could this be a new game breaking bug in version 1.7.0 hydra [d12e]?
Or do you get to turn 2 only of everyone passes, which never happens with many participants in the peace conference?

EDIT: Same behaviour in 1.6.2. Complete peace conference has only 1 turn. I don't think this is working as intended!
Can anyone confirm this for the current and older versions? If yes, I will report this as a bug.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

^ This was also an issue in WTT and before. I'm not sure if it's technically a bug or not, but it's certainly not working well.

 

[Goliathe]

I personally think it is good that the game works this way. I would rather they spend asses on something else as really this is a "who you were playing with problem".

If you have 80% of the war score with the AI and the next guy on the list has 15% then basically two people should decide the outcome. Those little 4% guys should have done more if they wanted something.


In short you shouldn't be playing a MP game with jerks .

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I personally think it is good that the game works this way. I would rather they spend asses on something else as really this is a "who you were playing with problem".

If you have 80% of the war score with the AI and the next guy on the list has 15% then basically two people should decide the outcome. Those little 4% guys should have done more if they wanted something.


In short you shouldn't be playing a MP game with jerks .

AI can ping pong too. In my "ships don't lie" run I declared on Japan, invaded the home isles (the only nation to set foot there offensively, ever), and capitulated them. I was in own faction so taking land I held should normally cost 10x normal amounts. I only had ~12% war score because idiots throw bodies to the meat grinder and apparently being the only nation to actually capture core provinces is only worth that much. FWIW I had also inflicted the most casualties on Japan, because they had lost convoys and had >> 100 divisions at home (don't know exactly how many due to the decryption bug).

I never got a single turn, on turn 1 the conference was already over and all I could do was press "done" while nations took land that I occupied after killing > 5M soldiers...

Part of this is because the WS system itself is broken, but it really shouldn't be the case that only the top 2 nations in any war get anything at all.

Also when it comes to MP, there is a reason griefing options are usually not allowed unless it's prohibitive to stop them. The fewer chances the better.

 

[Goliathe]

I was just mentioning this in a different thread but I would love to see a modifier for war participation based on how many of the enemy you killed.

It's pretty obvious for example when you kill 5 million and the AI has just been ninja capping with a few hundred thousand kills who was actually winning the war. If countries that took lots of land but didn't do much killing got a hefty penalty on their war score that would make a lot of sense.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I was just mentioning this in a different thread but I would love to see a modifier for war participation based on how many of the enemy you killed.

It's pretty obvious for example when you kill 5 million and the AI has just been ninja capping with a few hundred thousand kills who was actually winning the war. If countries that took lots of land but didn't do much killing got a hefty penalty on their war score that would make a lot of sense.

Realistically, both taking land and casualties need to be worth points. Same for other sources of damage to the enemy. The devil is in the details of how much each *should* be worth, but not counting inflicted casualties directly has been an egregious flaw since HOI 4 release regardless.

This also means troop transport convoys that get sunk should count...I'm not sure those are even displayed in the casualty report right now.

 

[George Parr]

I was just mentioning this in a different thread but I would love to see a modifier for war participation based on how many of the enemy you killed.

It's pretty obvious for example when you kill 5 million and the AI has just been ninja capping with a few hundred thousand kills who was actually winning the war. If countries that took lots of land but didn't do much killing got a hefty penalty on their war score that would make a lot of sense.

You just create a whole different issue with that approach.
Lets say Germany would sit at its border with the Soviet Union in a line of bunkers, and does nothing but let the Soviets waste millions of men on that line, and Japan take the entirety of the Soviet Union without Germany ever doing a single attack, your idea would lead to a scenario where Germany gets all the territory while Japan, which actually went on an offensive and took all the land, gets nothing out of it. That obviously doesn't make any more sense than the current situation.

Generally, the whole concept needs an overhaul, as it doesn't really work at all, no matter how you tweak it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You just create a whole different issue with that approach.
Lets say Germany would sit at its border with the Soviet Union in a line of bunkers, and does nothing but let the Soviets waste millions of men on that line, and Japan take the entirety of the Soviet Union without Germany ever doing a single attack, your idea would lead to a scenario where Germany gets all the territory while Japan, which actually went on an offensive and took all the land, gets nothing out of it. That obviously doesn't make any more sense than the current situation.

Generally, the whole concept needs an overhaul, as it doesn't really work at all, no matter how you tweak it.

Germany shredding USSR equipment badly would indeed be at least as valuable as wading through 1/2 strength units. They both need to count.

 

[General Dookie]

Did anyone of you ever see a peace conference turn 2? I didn't.
How do you get there? Only a few nations in a pc and everone passes?
In every other game I know "passing" means I don't do anything else in the current turn. Let all other players do their move until the next turn starts.

So is this a bug in HOI4 or intended?

I saw a lot of complaints and discussion about peace conferences, but no one ever thought about peace conferences being bugged and not working as intended...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Did anyone of you ever see a peace conference turn 2? I didn't.
How do you get there? Only a few nations in a pc and everone passes?
In every other game I know "passing" means I don't do anything else in the current turn. Let all other players do their move until the next turn starts.

So is this a bug in HOI4 or intended?

I saw a lot of complaints and discussion about peace conferences, but no one ever thought about peace conferences being bugged and not working as intended...

It's either a bug or an oversight. Each turn you get a set number of points based on war score (itself a bad mechanic right now). However, if you pass it goes to the person with the next highest points, then they get a turn.

If the top two nations keep passing, they will keep passing to each other, and they will each get more points/turn than anybody 3rd or lower. They could therefore in principle attain infinite turns --> war score by loop passing.

Even if the mechanic is working in accordance with original design it's given degenerate outcomes where it's possible that having 30% contribution gets you nothing, so it should be addressed.

 

[CaesarVincens]

Maybe take a page from Stellaris claim system. Each participant gets a turn claiming land and puppets. Anything that is uncontested is taken, anything that is contested goes to a second round, repeat. If you pass, you claim nothing that round, so no incentive to not claim what you want. Point system would need lots of adjusting of course.

 

[davidc929]

Realistically, both taking land and casualties need to be worth points. Same for other sources of damage to the enemy. The devil is in the details of how much each *should* be worth, but not counting inflicted casualties directly has been an egregious flaw since HOI 4 release regardless.

This also means troop transport convoys that get sunk should count...I'm not sure those are even displayed in the casualty report right now.

I'm pretty sure troops killed via sunk convoys are displayed. I've seen tens of thousands of Egyptian casualties appear when I've been playing Germany and at a time the only combat on my part is convoy raiding.

However warship and aircraft casualties are not shown and should be.

 

[Delpheus]

I know this is an old thread but this problem ruins multiplayer. Does anyone know if there has been a Dev response to this issue or will peace conferences remain forever cursed as the worst possible system ever conceived?

 

[bitmode]

I know this is an old thread but this problem ruins multiplayer. Does anyone know if there has been a Dev response to this issue or will peace conferences remain forever cursed as the worst possible system ever conceived?

It is on the roadmap: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/hoi4-dev-diary-1-6-2-and-roadmap.1164580/ :

Improving peace conferences

I don't remember seeing anything more concrete than that. The next time we will hear of it again is likely when they finished it, which could be anytime between tomorrow or in a few years

Edit: it was not tomorrow

 

[Selzro]

I'm pretty sure troops killed via sunk convoys are displayed. I've seen tens of thousands of Egyptian casualties appear when I've been playing Germany and at a time the only combat on my part is convoy raiding.

However warship and aircraft casualties are not shown and should be.

I'm sure there's a "ships sunk" parameter when determining warscore. Strategic bombing also counts, and few AI nations do it so that's a way to increase your warscore.

But yeah, the peace system is bonkers.