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Kamiran

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May 27, 2015
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A lot of people call for a game mechanic that destroys development to control the skyrocketing development of minor nations but in my opinions there can be too much damage, especially for the player, if development can be destroyed by looting.

Instead there should be a new peace treaty term "pillaging". This term will permanent reduce the development of provinces from nations that accept the term and will increase the own development of provinces. I would suggest one of the two options:

1. Provinces can be selected and in these provinces 15% of development is stolen (randomly if adm/dip/mil), minimum 1. Province with 1/1/1 cant be selected.
2. 10/7/5% of total development is stolen, depending on rank of enemy nation dutchy/kingdom/empire. The greater the development of a province, the more likely it will lose points in development.

The gained points are randomly spread over the nation within a radius around the capitol.

The downside of this term is the need of a high warscore and a big AE cause its barbaric to pillage.

This would increase the the reason why nations, even minor nations, declare war each other. And increase the options to play tall.
 
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Danfish77

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How is the "stolen" development distributed? Does it go into some kind of common pool to be added to your provinces? Do you get ADM/DIP/MIL points? Cash?

If we're talking about transferring the development to your own provinces, while it sounds okay in game terms... what's this supposed to model? Looting a cathedral and then moving it stone-by-stone back to your province and wiping the soot and blood off of it?
 

Kamiran

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May 27, 2015
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How is the "stolen" development distributed? Does it go into some kind of common pool to be added to your provinces? Do you get ADM/DIP/MIL points? Cash?

All gained development is randomly distributed over the provinces you have. To prevent these points are invested in useless oversea provinces, the center of these distribution is your capitol. The farther away a province is from your capital, the lower the chance.

If we're talking about transferring the development to your own provinces, while it sounds okay in game terms... what's this supposed to model? Looting a cathedral and then moving it stone-by-stone back to your province and wiping the soot and blood off of it?

ADM development is the economic power of people and is represented by taxation. If the soldiers steal gold, clothes, spices, food, furniture, etc, and bring them back to their home cities those people are richer and have to pay more tax.
DIP development is the production and economic power of the province. If your soldier steal horses and bullocks, tools, vehicles, raw materials, tradeships, etc, it increase the economic power of a province.
MIL development represents the military power of a province. If your soldiers steal horses, weapons, armor, warship, etc, it increases the ability to equip your soldiers.
 

Knoxos Aurelius

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It doesn't make sense that by pillaging another nation, somehow your own lands immediately become more built up. It would make more sense contextually if the settlements raided provided the nation pillaging with greater knowledge of certain technologies, and so the ability to tech up more quickly, perhaps suggesting that a temporary reduction in tech cost would be a more fitting benefit of pillaging, alongside immediate monetary gain?
 

Mattius

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I don't think pillaging is really the right term to use. Then again, what do I know :D
 
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Kamiran

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May 27, 2015
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It doesn't make sense that by pillaging another nation, somehow your own lands immediately become more built up. It would make more sense contextually if the settlements raided provided the nation pillaging with greater knowledge of certain technologies, and so the ability to tech up more quickly, perhaps suggesting that a temporary reduction in tech cost would be a more fitting benefit of pillaging, alongside immediate monetary gain?

Keep in mind you use the same currency to improve technology, improve your provinces, negotiate peace deals and change your government.
Please now explain what magic power increase the manpower, productivity or tax generation of a province. In my opinion only rising population would declare this, but then all factors would rise at same time but it doesnt happen.

Stealing horses, tools, raw materials, wood, slaves, weapons etc. and send them to one of your provinces will definitly improve the economic power or the ability to equip your soldiers.
How can the ability to negotiate peace deals improve the productivity of a province? My explanation make more sense then the system it is now.
 
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Monarch points are not magic. They represent the combination of beuracratic capability and political capital neccessary for your government to institute reforms(tech and ideas) and generally get things done.

When you develop a provinces base tax you are investing you governments effort into developing that province, rather than investing in new methods of production(tech), instituting laws that create a more humanist state(ideas), or improving the general runnning of the country(stability) its an abstraction like development, warscore, or ae
 
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SignedName

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Only makes sense for slave-trading powers like Genoa, Ottomans, Spain/Portugal, Netherlands, West Africans, Hordes, etc. If France were to attack Elsass and enslave part of its population, that would pretty much unite the world against them. This kind of mechanic, if it were used in Continental Europe, would only make sense if EUIV were placed in antiquity.
 
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Canute VII

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Only makes sense for slave-trading powers like Genoa, Ottomans, Spain/Portugal, Netherlands, West Africans, Hordes, etc. If France were to attack Elsass and enslave part of its population, that would pretty much unite the world against them. This kind of mechanic, if it were used in Continental Europe, would only make sense if EUIV were placed in antiquity.
This is rather an issue of assigning AE, a drop in legitamacy and reputation, based on the culture and religion of the pillaged province. France would get a harder hit of AE etc. for pillaging Alsace than for pillaging some west african province.
 
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Kamiran

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May 27, 2015
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When you develop a provinces base tax you are investing you governments effort into developing that province

How can bureaucracy instantly increase the tax rate to four times if you click 3 times adm development in a 1/1/1 province? And why does this improvement only improve tax and not productivity or the amount of soldiers you can gain?

Only makes sense for slave-trading powers like Genoa, Ottomans, Spain/Portugal, Netherlands, West Africans, Hordes, etc. If France were to attack Elsass and enslave part of its population, that would pretty much unite the world against them. This kind of mechanic, if it were used in Continental Europe, would only make sense if EUIV were placed in antiquity.

I do not know why you limit the development of a province on slavery. Pillaging is the robbery of equipment, horses, materials, vehicles, trade ships, weapons, armors, furniture, tools, ....
All this help to improve the economy of a city. More horses and plows help to increase the agriculture. More weapons and armors help to equip your soldiers. More tools and materials help your workforce to produce goods. I see no contradiction that all this is stolen from a city and delivered into another city.

The developers advertise you can play now tall, but all you do is pressing 3 buttons. With the ability to steal development you have more to do.
And i already suggested you get a lot of AE if you use this term. This will also increase the risk in playing this playstyle which make it more intresting. Also minor nations have an additional option, why they should go to war.
 

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M
How can bureaucracy instantly increase the tax rate to four times if you click 3 times adm development in a 1/1/1 province? And why does this improvement only improve tax and not productivity or the amount of soldiers you can gain?

Because you aren't investing in that. It makes more sense than loot suddenly making a province permanently more productive.

I'm honestly a fan of attaching a 25 or 50 ducat cost to the button. It allows development but heavily restricts it for poorer nations.
 

Kamiran

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May 27, 2015
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Honduras Weltkarte mit Finanzen.jpg


Look at the size of my empire, the income and my treasury. I could have more money if i hadnt run 13 colonies at same time even i had only 5 colonists.
I run lvl 3 advisors since 200 years. I build manufactories everywhere. All buildingslots are used. I conquered all what i wanted. I built the panama channel. Ive enough money to build one through africa.

BUT.... Even i am a giant economic world power, i cant develop more then one adm/dip/mil every 5 month cause this development its paid with imaginary magic monarch power.
MAKE THIS SENSE??
Why in gods name Iam not allowed to spend money in the development of my provinces and instead have to use bureaucracy and diplomatic power?
Your complaining pillaging wouldnt improve the economy of a province, even stealing equipment would do this, but its impossible to speed up the development with money? Please explain this??
 

Danfish77

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...but its impossible to speed up the development with money? Please explain this??

I don't think anybody's saying it's "impossible" to increase the development of a real-world province using money, that's ludicrous. But we're talking about game mechanics, specifically how development is tied to monarch points. Are you arguing that development should be increased with money? Possibly the most important point of the development system was to take the building system away from money and move it to monarch points to help out smaller empires; large empires, like in your example, don't really need the extra help; and, like in the real world, such huge sprawling empires require a lot more effort to maintain and control. The limit of monarch points is meant to make unrealistic world conquest less likely, or at least to stop the conquest->taxes feedback loop.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the current system is perfect, but I'm pretty sure that your original suggestion is not, either.
 

Kamiran

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I don't think anybody's saying it's "impossible" to increase the development of a real-world province using money, that's ludicrous.

The people are griping that pillaging a province dont leads to an economic benefit. But there is already the game mechanic "looting" that is nearly exactly the same. You steal gold from the province and you gain money. And spending money into a province (in real) will always lead to a economic development (sometimes only short-term but never with negative or no effect).

But we're talking about game mechanics, specifically how development is tied to monarch points. Are you arguing that development should be increased with money?

Your argue it is ok and realistic when diplomatic power is used to negotiate peace deals, invent shipyards or improve the production of a province, even all these things have no real, plausible connection. Cause its simply the game mechanic.
But when i suggest a game mechanic that make sense (You can already loot a province in war that leads to money, which you can spend to build a temple or workshop that increase your tax and income = more developed province), your aguing with real world facts (the posts before) and deny a good option for tall players to have more fun in game.

The limit of monarch points is meant to make unrealistic world conquest less likely, or at least to stop the conquest->taxes feedback loop.

Successful conquest leads to the ability to conquer even more. Spending ducats to build temples and workshops will lead to more money. Spending money to build marketplaces leads to more money from trade. Spending more money in colonies will lead to more income from colonies.

That is capitalismn. The effect of interest. That is the real world. Why do you accept these fact in all matters but not in this one?
 
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I do not know why you limit the development of a province on slavery. Pillaging is the robbery of equipment, horses, materials, vehicles, trade ships, weapons, armors, furniture, tools, ....
All this help to improve the economy of a city. More horses and plows help to increase the agriculture. More weapons and armors help to equip your soldiers. More tools and materials help your workforce to produce goods. I see no contradiction that all this is stolen from a city and delivered into another city.

The developers advertise you can play now tall, but all you do is pressing 3 buttons. With the ability to steal development you have more to do.
And i already suggested you get a lot of AE if you use this term. This will also increase the risk in playing this playstyle which make it more intresting. Also minor nations have an additional option, why they should go to war.
Development =/= better production. That's represented by technology and production efficiency. Development represents the manpower necessary to create either finished goods (production), armies (manpower), or tax base (base tax). One could say it also represents the land's ability to support industry, but that can't exactly be transferred via raiding, can it? Pillaging of materiel would be represented by either a tech discount, development discount, or at its most basic level extra monarch points, which is already implemented in-game via the power projection system and the Native American Humiliation CB. Besides, looting of enemy materiel is already represented by demanding gold in war goals and the looting mechanic. That gold can be invested into development indirectly through advisers or buildings, and the enemy does not have that gold with which to develop themselves. To make a permanent change in development instead of a temporary modifier like Looted, something big must have happened, like a population change/exchange. Getting lots of plows might be useful in the long run for research, but without a skilled production base, how is that going to increase development?
 

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I don't think anybody's saying it's "impossible" to increase the development of a real-world province using money, that's ludicrous. But we're talking about game mechanics, specifically how development is tied to monarch points. Are you arguing that development should be increased with money? Possibly the most important point of the development system was to take the building system away from money and move it to monarch points to help out smaller empires; large empires, like in your example, don't really need the extra help; and, like in the real world, such huge sprawling empires require a lot more effort to maintain and control. The limit of monarch points is meant to make unrealistic world conquest less likely, or at least to stop the conquest->taxes feedback loop.

I don't think anyone is arguing that the current system is perfect, but I'm pretty sure that your original suggestion is not, either.

Your stated purpose is inaccurate. By removing the monarch point component on buildings, the development system favors large, rich nations the most in the absolute sense. A small nation can't front 20000 manpower worth of buildings, but a large one can do so. The price of acquiring an additional province is still less in monarch point terms than developing it (and from a design perspective it must be).

But this suggestion is just creating a different way for war to give you money, essentially, while reducing core costs. Development doesn't carry the engagement that war has, and making it depend on piggybacking war brings us back to war rather than making development itself engaging.

So long as you're making a decision wrt development that requires significant thought only rarely, it'll always be a weak mechanic. If they really wanted to make it engaging they'd have given it some peacetime-only minigame. Instead, it adds exactly nothing compared to the old buildings system from a strategy/frequency of decisions standpoint.
 

Jomini

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It doesn't make sense that by pillaging another nation, somehow your own lands immediately become more built up. It would make more sense contextually if the settlements raided provided the nation pillaging with greater knowledge of certain technologies, and so the ability to tech up more quickly, perhaps suggesting that a temporary reduction in tech cost would be a more fitting benefit of pillaging, alongside immediate monetary gain?

What do you think happened during most of the Eastern European raids? That the skilled craftsmen were left when the slavers went by?

Likewise, if my raiders make off with all your oxen, why wouldn't some of my farmland become more productive with more manure and animal power for ploughing while yours became weaker? Iron implements, books, and even whole structures were carried off on a regular basis. Stealing capital goods (including in this era enslavement) was a major way to acquire physical and human capital which did lead to massive increases in the goods production, manpower, and tax revenues of the raiders. We can see this quite well by looking at what happened in border raiding areas once the raiding stopped. The Scottish border, for instance, went into decline once the raiders there could no longer plunder England. Crimea was built almost entirely on raiding and stopping the Tatar raids was one of the biggest things that allowed for development of Southern Russia. Horde cities routinely fell in productivity and economy when their patrons moved the border too far from them to support a raiding economy. The Barbary pirates managed to build a large base of economy off piracy.


Frankly, if we were being realistic, major wars should result in major development burns. There would be some gains to the aggressor (the carried off loot and people), but also gains to states to which war refugees would flee.

Development =/= better production. That's represented by technology and production efficiency. Development represents the manpower necessary to create either finished goods (production), armies (manpower), or tax base (base tax). One could say it also represents the land's ability to support industry, but that can't exactly be transferred via raiding, can it? Pillaging of materiel would be represented by either a tech discount, development discount, or at its most basic level extra monarch points, which is already implemented in-game via the power projection system and the Native American Humiliation CB. Besides, looting of enemy materiel is already represented by demanding gold in war goals and the looting mechanic. That gold can be invested into development indirectly through advisers or buildings, and the enemy does not have that gold with which to develop themselves. To make a permanent change in development instead of a temporary modifier like Looted, something big must have happened, like a population change/exchange. Getting lots of plows might be useful in the long run for research, but without a skilled production base, how is that going to increase development?
Pretty much the way it happened every time it ever happened in history, by allowing economic and population growth. I get a one-off gift of $1,000,000 odds in 5 years that the difference between me and a me-without-the-gift will only be $1,000,000? 0. Because I'm not just going to sit on the goods. I will use it to grow the nest egg. Similarly, stealing the oxen will not just be a one off now, but it will allow for more fields to be put to the plow, which means more food for the village, which means lower infant mortality, which means higher population. Given the nature of food production in the era, getting another 20 or so farmers means that the village economy supports another artisan. This artisan in turn provides additional benefits to society.

This also works in the reverse on the looted province. Losing the plow doesn't just mean you have less food now, it means that you can till fewer acres and thus will be more likely to have population loss during the winter (particularly if it is bad and the looting wrecked the crops). This in turn means that you lose artisans, which often meant that capital improvements, like canals, quarries, or lumbermills, can no longer be supported because the local price of food has risen too high to make these specialized labors profitable (and this is an era in which food prices are VERY local).

The economy of the EUIV era largely boils down to just three components:
1. Who is getting high value on trade from very disparate goods exchanges - what we call trade.
2. How much grain is being grown and how many peasants/animals live off of it.
3. How much bullion is being mined.

#2 was by far the most important for most states in the era. (#1 was an issue for places like England, the Netherlands, Venice, etc. while #3 was only an issue for a few places like Serbia, Spain, and the like).

Development was virtually never about new technology historically, it was almost always about having enough food to support specialized workers to build and maintain infrastructure. Anything that increased food supply would ultimately increase the number of workers would could then go build and maintain capital improvements.
 
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Ilightmaster

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I have to agree that development is nicely working until 1700 (for me) but after that you pointed out some issues that administrative efficiency doesn't completly solve. But i can't stand for any of your solutions. I hope Paradox would find something whereas i rather like to see +4 advisor than "pillage" or new mecanics creating weirdness in the game.
 
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Kamiran

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What do you think happened during most of the Eastern European raids? That the skilled craftsmen were left when the slavers went by?

Likewise, if my raiders make off with all your oxen, why wouldn't some of my farmland become more productive with more manure .................

Great commentary, couldnt explain it better.
My main intention was to enable more options to tall players (which can make currently nothing more than colonize and press 3 buttons) and give minor AI nations more reasons to go to war.

I have to agree that development is nicely working until 1700 (for me) but after that you pointed out some issues that administrative efficiency doesn't completly solve. But i can't stand for any of your solutions. I hope Paradox would find something whereas i rather like to see +4 advisor than "pillage" or new mecanics creating weirdness in the game.

Yeah i still hope they will find a way to balance it but as long as they use only monarch power and only change some values I dont think they will be able to do it.
 

Maq

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The very idea that diligent government helps development is widespread but completely wrong.
The most diligent government of all times was the Soviet Communist government, and the experiment failed precisely because it proved unable to stimulate development.
On the other side of the scale, once upon a time there was a country which experienced so called benign neglect...
 
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