Pictures of Tech Teams

[unmerged(15998)]

Hi!

Birch told me that you lacked a Pic for the spanish tech-team named CROSS.

I've been looking among a friend, and we found a pic that might work.

This pic is of the foundators of the company:

Additional info of the company can be found at:
http://www.ercros.es/ (section: Who are we? - History)

Ercos is the actual name of CROSS. In that page, you can find pics and info of other important spanish industries of the time, like the "Unión Española de Explosivos" or the "Compañía Española de Minas de Rio Tinto" (originaly, a british company).

And, by the way, the name is bad spelled. The company's name was not "CROSS", but "S.A Cros" (after his founder's name, Fracisco Cros).

Also, the Tech-Team is a bit underrated. The company is today one of Spain's principal thrusts. In the game it has only specialization in "chemistry", but could have also in "management" and "industrial engineering".

 

[Vacceo]

Hi; I´m the other partner working with Ivan the red for a better representation of spanish technology (both national and republican) in HoI 2

While the game itself is not released in Spain yet, there are several people in the spanish forum who actually have it; aslo screenshots are quite ilustrative of the situation and we would like to suggest some changes for the techteams as previously presented.

By now we have lots of ideas of what to change and what to keep. Cros, as previously seen is the first one. So for the ones who have played with this nations, we will gratefuly receive oll the comentaries you make and take note of them.

Here you have the first proposition:

REPUBLICAN SPAIN
*-CASA: 3 +aeronatics, mechanics, electronics, aircraft testing
*-S.A Cros: 3 +chemestry, management, industrial ingenieering
-Dr. Leret Ruiz: 3+rocketry, mathematics, piloting
*-Esperanza y Unceta: 4+general equipement, mechanics, training, artillery
*-Fábrica de armas de Trubia: 4+mechanics, artillery, training, technical eficiency
-Asensio Torrado: eliminated
-Miaja Menant: eliminated
-Rojo Lluch: 5+infantry focus, large unit tactics, decentralized execution, training
*-Hispano-Suiza: 5+ mechanics, electronics, aeronautics, industrial ingenieering, aircraft testing
-La Hispano: eliminated
*-SECN: 5+ naval ingenieering, naval artillery, electronics, mecanics, technical eficiency
*-Unión Naval de Levante: 4+mechanics, training, naval engineering, naval artillery, technical eficiency
-Buiza Palacios: 3+naval training, small taskforce tactics, seamanship
-González Ubieta: 3+naval training, large taskforce tactics, seamanship
-Hidalgo de Cisneros: Nivel 4+aircraft testing, fighter tactics, piloting, decentralized execution

New teams:

*-CEPSA: 4+management, chemestry, technical eficiency, technical engineering
*-Centro de Estudios Químicos: 4+mathematics, chemestry, nuclear physics, nuclear engineering
-Mendiola Nuñez: 5+aircraft testing, bomber tactics, piloting, centralized execution
-Modesto Guilloto: 4+centralized execution,small unit tactics, personal courage

NATIONAL SPAIN

*same as Republican Spain except for some names:
"Hispano Suiza" is "La Hispano"
"Centro de Estudios Químicos" is "Instituto Químico de Sarriá"
"Unión Naval de Levante" is "Maestranza de Artillería Ferrol"

-Dr. Areilza y Mtez.-Rodas: 3+mathematics, management, rocketry
-Franco Bahamonde: 4+infantry focus, large unit tactics, centralized execution
-García Valiño: 5+individual courage, samall unit tactics, infantry focus, decentralized execution
-Millán Astray: eliminated
-Cervera Valderrama: 5+naval training, large taskforce tactics, seamanship
-(chose an admiral): 3+naval training, small taskforce tactics, seamanship
-Kínderlán Duany: 3+aircraft testing, bomber tactics, piloting, decentralized execution
-García Morato: 4+aircraft testing, fighter tactics, piloting, centralized execution

 

[unmerged(15998)]

Hey, ¿could a Moderator please move this thread to the recently opened "HoI2 - Enhancement Suggestions" forum? Thanks.

 

[nachinus]

Can you guys provide suitable pics for the new teams proposed?. That'd would be just great.

Btw, why giving Mtez-Rodas rocket specialization?

 

[unmerged(15998)]

Well, there is my list of suggested modifications for the SPR tech teams. I give justifications for all changes.

I think that Nachinus' work is great. He has found the principal spanish teams. However, I find some details that could be pulished, due surely to the fact that Nachinus designed the teams when he still was not very sure of what exact use would have the specializations.

So I see several teams that have specializations in areas that, historically, they did not researched at. So there is the list of my suggestions: (I've marked with an asterisk the modifications I'd do)

- Hispano-Suiza: This one is famous for his automobiles. Also built aircraft engines. During the SCW it produced trucks and armored cars for the Republican Army. After the bankruptcy of "Hispano-Suiza" the factory at Barcelona formed a new company, PEGASO, famous for his Lorries.

Therefore, I think that his specializations should be oriented to armored cars, mech/motorized infantry, and logistical techs.

My suggestions:
Mechanics: Already in
Industrial Engineering: Already in
Technical Efficiency: His cars are classics!
Rocketry: His engines where used for aircrafts anyway
General Equipment: This helps for "motorized/mechanized" techs.

- La Hispano: Heir of the "Hispano-Suiza", it was dedicated to Aircrafts.

So I suggest the following:
Aeronautics: Already in
Electronics: Already in
*Mechanics: Not need for Aeronautics . I'd use "Technica Efficiency" instead
*Industrial Engineering: No suitable
*Aircraft Testing: This one is for air doctrines, not aircraft researching

- Unión Naval de Levante:
This one was a shipyard that in the SCW produced the UNL-35, the by far most produced armored vehicle of the SCW. Production continued until the 50's. It should have specializations in naval and armor reserach.

My suggestions:
Artillerty: Already in
Mechanics: Already in
*Training: ¿Why this one? this is for infantry and artillery, neither of it things that the UNL made. It sould be susbtituted by Electronics, that is used for armor and naval techs.
Naval Engineering: Already in
Naval Artillery: Already in

- SECN (Sociedad Española de Construcciones Navales):
This one whas the principal shipyard company of Spain. It constructed battlecruisers and battleships, so their technical value is out of question.

My suggestions
*Artillery: ¿Why? This one is not related to Naval research. It already has Naval Artillery, that is the correct specialization. So I would simply Delete this one.
*Mechanics: This one is not naval, either. I'd substitute it by Technical Efficiency, that is used for Naval. The shipyards built Battleships and Battlecruisers so I think he is worth it.
Naval Engineering: Already in
Electronics: Already in
Naval Artillery: Already in

- Esperanza&Unceta (AKA ASTRA)
This one produced small weapons and troop equipment. Therefore should have tech oriented to the Infantry area.

My suggestions:
Training: Already in.
*Mechanics: This one is not very directly related to infantry. I'd use Artillery instead.
*General Equipment: This one should be the basic tech for a company like ASTRA, so I'd add it.

- Trubia:
This one was a state factory of Artillery, with a long tradition. It produced also some armor. Therefore it should have specializations in the Artillery and Armor area.

I've no suggestions on this one. It's Ok with what it currently has:
Artillery: Ok
Mechanics: Ok
Training: Ok

- CASA:
This one produced aircraft, specially heavy aircrafts, and still does it today.

My suggestions:
*Mechanics: This one is not used for Aircraft. I'd delete it.
*Aircraft Testing: This one is for Air Doctrines, not Aircraft Research. I'd use Technical Efficiency instead.
Elecronics: Ok
Aeronautics: Ok

- CROSS:
The first point about this one is that the name is bad spelled. It's real name was S.A. Cros. This one produced a wide amount of material, from fertilizers to steel and aluminium. So would have specializations related to industrial. In the 50's she absorbed several mining companies and today it's a very powerfull company.

My suggestions:
Chemistry: Already in.
*Management
*Industrial Engineering

...

And now, about Land Doctrine Leaders:

- Vicente Rojo Lluch: He was a militar academy specialist. He was teacher in the spanish militar academies before the SCW and later, in the exile, he teached academic doctrines in military academies of all south america.

Sy suggestions:
Infantry Focus: Already in
Decentralized Execution: Already in. This one is perfect, since historically he made the plans for the republican offensives, but delegated the execution in the lower-echelon commanders.
*Large Unit Tactics: I'm not very sure of this one. He was an acknowelded teorethical tactician, so maybe Small Unit Tactics fits him better.
*Individual Courage: I'm not very sure of this one. He was a militar academy professional teacher so definitely Training fits him.

- José Miaja Menant:
This old chap was not famous by his Academic labour, but he was the most famous republican general, so I think that he has been included for this. I'd substitute him for any other guy, but anyway that's what Miaja should have in my oppinion:

Infantry Focus: Already in
Large Unit Tactics: Already in
*Decentralized Execution: Miaja was a very possesive general, the type that never let his superiors to take troops from his front. He ruled his Front like if it was his personal little Kingdom. Centralized Execution fits him better.

...

I'll take a break, now. Latter I'll talk about naval and air doctriners, and abour sciencists.

 

[nachinus]

Thx, Ivan. Many of the changes you suggest have been already intruduced, but others will be of great help.

Oh, I can't add mechanics to Hispano or Hispano-Suiza, because it would make it the best team for tanks. And this doesn't suit them too much, true?

Do you agree with the new teams suggested by Vacceo?.

I found pics for all of the new teams he suggested, but could use a better one for Centro de Estudios Químicos and Instituto Químico de Sarriá.

 

[unmerged(15998)]

Thx, Ivan. Many of the changes you suggest have been already intruduced, but others will be of great help.

I've something more.

Ladies and gentlemen... Welcome to the webpage of BIOGRAPHIES OF FAMOUS SPANISH MATHEMATICIANS

http://www.divulgamat.net/weborriak/Historia/MateEspainiolak/Indizea.asp

I'd remark the following names:
- JOSÉ BARINAGA MATA
- Juan López Soler (this specially fits as matematician for the nationalists)
- Puig Adam (republican)
- Julio Rey Pastor (this one is a Big guy)
- Lluís Antoni Santaló i Sors

All of them, except the fist, have pics in that page. I can look for a pic of Barinaga if required.

Oh, I can't add mechanics to Hispano or Hispano-Suiza, because it would make it the best team for tanks. And this doesn't suit them too much, true?

Uhm, I thought that don't giving her "artillery" would be enough. But maybe we could change "mechanics" for a tech more directly related to mech/mot infantry. The Hispano-Suiza built a lot of trucks and some armored vehicles.

BTW the General Motors Peninsular S.A. (located in Barcelona) was responsible of producing the "Chevrolet 1937", a vehicle very similar to the UNL-35. About 70 where built. Not bad. In the design of this one the Hispano-Suiza was also involved.

Do you agree with the new teams suggested by Vacceo?.

That depends about the limits for Game Balancing. I've tried to avoid too much boosting of the teams, just modifications to stick them to their historical role. If you tell me that we can enhance the teams, then...

 

[nachinus]

The spanish teams don't need boosting, IMHO. With the lattest revision based in your and Vacceo's suggestions I'm quite happy with them.

EDIT: If you want to add some math guy to both SPA and SPR, I suugest removing the math specialization of Instituto Quimico de Sarria and Centro de Estudios Quimicos.

 

[unmerged(15998)]

"Hispano" issue: I've just realized that "La Hispano" refers to the factory of Seville, while "Hispano-Suiza" is the one at BCN. Ok then, I'd take Mechanics out of "La Hispano" without any problem.

Also, I think that "rocketry" don't suits "Hispano". I've changed my mind, because the construction of the "HA-200" and all that was due to the fact that they "enlisted" Willy Messerchmidt and several other german engineers in 1951, so...

Now the problem comes with "Hispano-Suiza", that represents a completely different research team.

I've edited my previous post, therefore.

The spanish teams don't need boosting, IMHO. With the lattest revision based in your and Vacceo's suggestions I'm quite happy with them.

About Vacceo's sugestions, I dissent in:
- Giving "mechanics" to CASA. She doesn't need them, that spec is used for a lot of tech don't related to Aeronautics. Better to have "Tech Efficiency".
- Giving "mechanics" to Espe&Unceta. She already has "Training" and "Artillery". With "mechanics", Espe would be used to research Armor&Artillery techs.
- Giving "Tech Efficiency" to Trubia, too much boosting. Also, "tech efficiency" is not related with Artillery research. If you want to give him another spec, I'd choose "chemistry", that is related to Arty. But I don't find it necessary.
- About Rojo, I've already pointed my debate about "small" or "large" unit tactics.
- SECN don't needs mechanics, not used for naval techs. The problem with SECN is like the one with "Hispano". Having tech efficency and electronics, and skill 5, it's very likely that the player will use it for non-historical purposes.
- UNL: She has to have arty for armor research. Training don't suits for her. I think that it's better to give her "electronics" than "tech efficency", with "electronics" she will have the same bonus for armor and naval and seems less "powerfull" than "tech eff".

About the "Centro de Estudios Químicos"... difficult issue. Vacceo, could you justify?

About the land/sea/air doctrines, still I have to take a look. I think that Lister suits better than Modesto as a "soviet-type" doctriner. However if SPR starts already in the "firepower focus" path, then we don't need them (can't be used).

About "research teams" of the nationalists, still have to take a look. Mainly are the same. However the "Maestranza de Artillería de El Ferrol" should not be a copy of the "Unión Naval de Levante". Should be more focused to arty and less to armor.

If you want to add some math guy to both SPA and SPR, I suugest removing the math specialization of Instituto Quimico de Sarria and Centro de Estudios Quimicos.

Yes. I've seen that generally the majors have a "math guy", maybe for computer and encription/decription techs. The IQS seems too overrated. It should be limited to the two nuclear techs if Vacceo can give a convincent argument.

 

[Vacceo]

The cientifical revolution of the 30´s (at least in the theoretical part) was the abandonement of "classic physics" (Newton style I mean).
As you all know, the main characters of this story are Fermi, Einstein, Heisemberg and Oppenheimer...
But the important part; IQS was perhaps the only academycal institution that teached that kind of theories. In fact IQS was at that time (and still is) the most innovative and best prepared place of studies for chemestry, physics and industrial ingenieering.
Taking out maths or chemestry could be ok and not a high level for the team; but I think it´s specially representative of perhaps the most outstanding era of spanish science (did you all remember just about Río-Hortega or Sever Ochoa?).

About the substitution of Miaja; I´d go for Juan "Modesto" Guilloto, Enrique Lister Forján or even Cipriano Mera Sanz. They were a complete sourprise; competent military leaders from plain workers.

 

[unmerged(15998)]

I've been thinking deeper into the Hispano-Suiza issue.

At this point, we are talking about the Barcelona factory, so aeronautics are out of the line. It produced mainly Trucks, and armored cars.

I've also taken a look to similar teams in other nations. Mainly the "Renault", the "Volkswagen" and the "Ford".

The origina was:
Aeronautics, Electronics, Mechanics, Industrial Engineering, Aircraft Testing

My suggestion is:
Mechanics, Technical Efficiency, General Equipment, Rocketry (his engines where used for aircrafts anyway), Industrial Engineering.

With this mixture of skills, the Hispano-Suiza has a place to investigate the "repair" supply techs, motorized and mechanized infantry (to some extent), and still is good for armor and the "manufacturing" industrial techs. Espe&Unceta would still be better at pure infantry techs and some of the mot/mech infantry and CEPSA/Cros would be better for a lot of the industrial techs (having "management").

Well, my idea.

The cientifical revolution of the 30´s (at least in the theoretical part) was the abandonement of "classic physics" (Newton style I mean).
As you all know, the main characters of this story are Fermi, Einstein, Heisemberg and Oppenheimer...
But the important part; IQS was perhaps the only academycal institution that teached that kind of theories. In fact IQS was at that time (and still is) the most innovative and best prepared place of studies for chemestry, physics and industrial ingenieering.
Taking out maths or chemestry could be ok and not a high level for the team; but I think it´s specially representative of perhaps the most outstanding era of spanish science (did you all remember just about Río-Hortega or Sever Ochoa?).

Looks Ok to me to let them with "Nuclear Physics" and "Nuclear Engineering" but with a low skill (2).

On the other hand, we can use some of the Math guys I've listed, with the "maths" spec and skill 3 or 4.

About the substitution of Miaja; I´d go for Juan "Modesto" Guilloto, Enrique Lister Forján or even Cipriano Mera Sanz. They were a complete sourprise; competent military leaders from plain workers.

Líster was not just a plain worker. He studied in the Frunze Militar Academy, in the Soviet Union, from 1932 to 1935. He organized the first military school for militiamen. Later the leader of the republican shock troops, his division was always the first into the combat and the last to retreat. After the war he served in the Soviet Army where he achieved the rank of General.

Juan Modesto was a former subofficer of the Spanish Foreign Legion. He also received some formation courses in the Soviet Union in 1933, but his formation was not, by far, as deep as Lister's. In the SCW he had Lister under his direct command and also fighted in the Red Army in WW2, being appointed as General.

Of those two, I think that Lister's curriculum qualifies him better to be an Academic Doctriner (hey, he was at Frunze!).

But, again, there is no point in creating a "soviet-like" doctriner if Spain already starts in the "Firepower Focus" tree. And I don't see apropiate to make Spain begin plain in doctrines, when other nations starts with two levels.

BTW Manuel Tagüeña was a licenciated in physics. After the war he worked in research labs in Czechoslovakia and Mexico.

 

[nachinus]

I'd use Lister. Since he (and Guilloto) became important during the SCW, I'll make him appear in 37, like Rojo, and keep Miaja as a lower skill doctrine guy to use from the start.

 

[unmerged(15998)]

For what you want to use Lister?

skill level? 4? number of specializations? 3 or 4?

He was soviet school so "Large Units Tactics", "Combined Arms Focus" and "Individual Courage" with "Centralized Execution" as possible 4th spec.

"Small Unit Tactics" might suit him for his experience in the SCW, but "Large Unit Tactics" is the one that represents better the Soviet School.

I have already sent a very long list of pics of lister to Birch (from the times we made the Leader Lists) so ask him for some. The pic Lister had in HoI could work.

 

[unmerged(15998)]

About the Math guys:

For the republicans, the two I think more suitable are:

Julio Rey Pastor:
http://www.divulgamat.net/weborriak/Historia/MateEspainiolak/JRPastor.asp

Puig Adam:
http://www.divulgamat.net/weborriak/Historia/MateEspainiolak/PuigAdam.asp

Both have a nice pic. I'd choose the first one, he is by far more famous. (In fact, he is an old known of me, since his Books about the history of Mathematics and Science are in the bibliography of the University of History).
But read the two biographies and make your own conclusions about wich one is more suitable.

I'd give skill 4 or 5 with mathematics spec.

For the nats, the most suitable guy is Juan Lopez Soler:
http://www.divulgamat.net/weborriak/Historia/MateEspainiolak/JuanLopezSoler.asp

All the others either went to the exile or didn't have a specially remarkable career under the "new regime". This one in the other hand was the Head of the "Real Sociedad Matemática Española" from 1939 to his death.

I'd give him skill 3, he was very old to be much innovative, and his researching works are all prior to 1936.

 

[Vacceo]

Just an aesthetic idea: it would be nice to have different pics for techteams (individual leaders), ministers and leaders if they´re coincident.

I think Ivan´s statics for Lister could be quite nice since he would also represent an alternative to Rojo.

Many changes have been done so I´ll edit and sumarize them at least for the Spanish Republic today evening or tomorrow.

 

[unmerged(15998)]

Just an aesthetic idea: it would be nice to have different pics for techteams (individual leaders), ministers and leaders if they´re coincident.

I think they are already doing it. We found so many pics for leaders and ministers that (at least in HoI) they used different pics for the same guy in different minister positions.

BWT I suggested skill 2 nuclear physicis nuclear engineering to the IQS. Do you think that a higher sill (3 or 4) is suitable?

 

[unmerged(15998)]

One question. ¿Why has Rafael García Valiño skill 5, like Rojo?

Sorry to say that, but he is not at the level of Rojo in Academic Knowelde.

I'd either raise Rojo to skill 6 or lower Valiño to skill 4

 

[Vacceo]

For IQS, skill 3 (mimimum dificutly of every advancement) is quite OK as representation, but if this is too unbalanced, I´d accept 2 in favour of gameplay. Anyway, let´s consider level 3 is the main idea.
As I told, IQS was a really advanced and innovative institution considering the scientifical background of the 30´s.

Regarding Rojo, I´d give him 6 since he was the one who planed the most outstanding republican operations during Spanish Civil War (Ebro Battle, supported the defense of Madrid with Miaja...)
This makes Valiño an interesting leader for National Spain since he was far more innovative than general Franco.
And about this, you have not suggested a second naval leader besides Cervera Valderrama and I still do not have an idea...

Regarding mathematics experts for National Spain, I think there is no need to add anyone since Dr. Areilza y Martínez-Rodas is now there.

 

[unmerged(15998)]

About the nationalist tech teams, basically they are the same. The "Maestranza de Artillería de El Ferrol" is ok as it is. The only problem may be that he is better at arty research tan the "Trubia".

One thing, it's an error to put Nationalist Spain in the "superior firepower" path. He should be in the "Grand Battle Plan" path, aimed to the "attritional containment" doctrine.

And now, about MILITAR DOCTRINE GUYS

Land Doctrines:
Republican:
- Rojo Lluch: 5, Large, Decentralized, Courage, Infantry
Modifications: 5 or 6, Small, Decentralized, Infantry, Training
- Miaja: 4, Large, Decentralized, Infantry
Modifications: Large, Centralized, Infantry
- Enrique Líster (NEW): 3 or 4, Large, Combined Arms, Courage

Nationalist:
- Franco Bahamonde: 4, Large, Centralized, Infantry
Ok this way. Maybe too much skill. I'd leave him with skill 3.
- García Valiño: 5, Large, Centralized
Modifications: Startdate 1942 (the date in wich he was appointed as Chief of Staff). 4 or 5, Small Unit Tactics, Infantry Focus, Individual Courage.
- Millán Astray: 3, Courage, Infantry
Modifications: Remove
- Agustin Muñoz Grandes (NEW): Startdate 1941, 3 or 4, Combined Arms, Small Unit Tactics, Individual Courage. This guy was the general of the Blue Division.

 

[unmerged(15998)]

For IQS, skill 3 (mimimum dificutly of every advancement) is quite OK as representation, but if this is too unbalanced, I´d accept 2 in favour of gameplay. Anyway, let´s consider level 3 is the main idea.
As I told, IQS was a really advanced and innovative institution considering the scientifical background of the 30´s.

Ok.

Regarding Rojo, I´d give him 6 since he was the one who planed the most outstanding republican operations during Spanish Civil War (Ebro Battle, supported the defense of Madrid with Miaja...)
This makes Valiño an interesting leader for National Spain since he was far more innovative than general Franco.

I'm not sure that General Franco should be there. Anyway Valiño's startdate should be at least pushed back to 1939, an preferably to 1942.

And about this, you have not suggested a second naval leader besides Cervera Valderrama and I still do not have an idea...

One of the Moreno Fernandez brothers, of course. Either Salvador or Francisco. I'll tell later. My idea is to use Cervera and Buiza as "open seas" doctriners, Moreno Fernandez as a "indirect apporach" and Ubieta as a "decisive battle". I'll look at the sea tech doctrines to see wich skills suits them better. BTW Ubieta is very underrated. He was the one that sunk the "Baleares", winning the only true naval engagement of the SCW, and despite being in inferiority.

For air doctrines, I don't see Morato in SPA since we would have to remove him in 1939 (his historicall deathdate, and not due to combat, but to an accident in an air exhibition). I see Bayo Giraud or Diaz Sandino as second rep. air doctriner, rather than Calderón. Bayo helped to train the guerrillas of Fidel Castro that overtrhown the Batista government, so was not too bad. )

Regarding mathematics experts for National Spain, I think there is no need to add anyone since Dr. Areilza y Martínez-Rodas is now there.

And my question is: Why? He is known for being a politician, and a diplomat, but not for cientific research. In the game he has management and maths. Rocketry? no way. In fact I think he should not have maths either.