Picking your empire weapon

[alphamikefox]

The idea of picking a starting weapon for your empire is cool but essentially meaningless, and I imagine that most people gloss over this choice since they can just pick whatever weapon tech they're actually going to use when they're in the game. Not so for empire FTL however, and when you pick it you're locked. This has struck me as odd for a while now, and a half-measure for both. Now with the introduction in Utopia of the option to shift your empire ethics in game, I think it opens the door to this discussion. My first proposals:

-Make your starting weapon choice lock your empire to that weapon branch, i.e. if you pick lasers then the tech for all lasers, plasma and disruptors will become available for research over time, but not projectile or missile. However, if you fight another empire that has projectiles or missiles equipped, you can salvage their ships and research the technology of the weapon they were using, just like if you had killed space creatures, but not continue in that research branch. So you can diversify if you beat other empires, assimilating their tech, but never really be as good at it as they can be

-In addition to the above, if you fight an empire with an FTL drive that you don't have, you can salvage their ships to unlock the research for their FTL drive, if you feel like over time adopting it to some or all of your ships (or not). I'm really not quite sure why this isn't a thing already

In both cases above, I propose that researching the salvaged tech takes as long as researching a salvaged tech from space creatures, which reduced cost the more you salvage. It should not be easy to adopt another weapon or FTL tech, since your race has spent its time and energy on perfecting the weapons that it knows how to use, but it should be doable. Note also that this will make federation fleets meaningful, as the option to use federation tech still applies, and means you don't have to spend time fighting, salvaging and researching to unlock alternative weapons

Fine tuning the balancing for each weapon set may be required to make everyone happy, but they've already been doing that for FTL this whole time, so in my mind the idea is not inconceivable. I feel like this idea will make each species feel that little bit more unique without being game-breaking. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong below

 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

so how do you do mixed ftl fleets

 

[Sheriff Godwin Law]

I don't think starting weapon was meant to ever be a significant choice. And I'm not sure if locking players out of the ability to tailor their fleets as counters to enemies once war is declared improves gameplay.

 

[terrycloth]

so how do you do mixed ftl fleets

It's possible to get wrong-ftl-type ships today through integration. They can't be combined into fleets with ships of other FTL types.

Maybe instead of locking out techs, you could get rare techs exclusive to your starting weapon type that gave an advantage to weapons of that type? Give missile races one that also affects strike craft as a consolation prize, I guess... it'll still be the worst choice currently. :/

I was thinking something like +20% damage or fire rate or something. Since most 'endgame' ships use both kinetics and plasma both choices should be reasonable.

If you want something that feels more significant, add additional range. +20% range to plasma and kinetics, or +100% range and speed to missiles and strike craft. n.n

 

[Summin Cool]

I'd rather the tech's locked out, its far more friendly to the AI

 

[alphamikefox]

I don't think starting weapon was meant to ever be a significant choice. And I'm not sure if locking players out of the ability to tailor their fleets as counters to enemies once war is declared improves gameplay.

I'd rather the tech's locked out, its far more friendly to the AI

Maybe instead of locking out techs, you could get rare techs exclusive to your starting weapon type that gave an advantage to weapons of that type?

My whole point is about *not* locking players out of *any* options. I think it's weird that players have been locked out of FLT options since game release, while the empire weapon choice is irrelevant. In game, I propose that you can fight and salvage any other option you want

so how do you do mixed ftl fleets

Federation fleets can already take any FTL drive in the federation, you just can't merge mixed FTL fleets. Plus jump drives/psi drives. It's not unprecedented

Give missile races one that also affects strike craft as a consolation prize, I guess... it'll still be the worst choice currently. :/

If it were me, I'd just let anybody take strike craft; leave it open for anyone to research mid-game. But in general I agree that missiles should currently get extra attention. From what we've heard they'll get some buff with Utopia, so we'll see. Could still use an XL slot I think...anywho that's not what I want this thread to be about. I'm not suggesting balance changes, those'll happen, I'm suggesting player choice options

I was thinking something like +20% damage or fire rate or something. Since most 'endgame' ships use both kinetics and plasma both choices should be reasonable.

If you want something that feels more significant, add additional range. +20% range to plasma and kinetics, or +100% range and speed to missiles and strike craft. n.n

I'd personally rather see more actual weapons than just buffs, or maybe both. I generally prefer more diversity options to make each species feel unique, rather than piling on the modifiers. Like I think it would be cool to have a purple-tech for each, kinetic/missile/laser, that's size specific. For example: purple tech small kinetic/laser/missile (each different and with varying stats/abilites), and a purple tech medium, purple tech large, etc.

 

[Nirmara]

I don't see why using one of the starting weapon in 2200 would not let you develop and use the other type later on.

The FTL limitation is there for balance purposes and to avoid the nightmare with ships of different FTL type. Federation fleet are an exception to this, but even a federation with a diversity of FTL type will end up with at most 4 fleets.

Also, a ship don't need more than one FTL drive, but it can need different weapon type in combat since mixing different types of weapons is, in theory, the optimal tactic since they all have different strengths and weakness.

 

[alphamikefox]

The FTL limitation is there for balance purposes and to avoid the nightmare with ships of different FTL type. Federation fleet are an exception to this, but even a federation with a diversity of FTL type will end up with at most 4 fleets.

I can understand that as far as game design goes, but I don't feel like I'm proposing anything particularly radical by offering to be able to have the option to salvage alternate FLT options from your enemies and research them if you want. Maybe very few people would use this option if it became available, but I'm thinking of it as a quality of life thing

I don't see why using one of the starting weapon in 2200 would not let you develop and use the other type later on.

The idea would be that the concepts behind how those technologies work are, at best, experimental if not unheard of, however once your race has analyzed someone else's working examples, they can put it together themselves. Because again: I am *not* talking about locking people out of getting access to those techs in game

Also, a ship don't need more than one FTL drive, but it can need different weapon type in combat since mixing different types of weapons is, in theory, the optimal tactic since they all have different strengths and weakness.

That's true for the current way weapons work, but not by much. Having a different FTL drive has had players adapt to different play styles, but only slightly, as they have all been balanced in a way to be relatively equal in strength. I feel like the devs are trying to do that with weapons anyway, I think this way the weapon choice will be more meaningful. Still, I'm not trying to make this thread about weapon balance, that has-and-will-be talked to death and necromancy elsewhere

Look, all I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure no one cares about what weapon they choose for their species at the start of the game. If that's the case then they might as well make weapon choice for species go the way of the colony ship tech and ditch it. Alternatively my idea. Or yeah, sure, we could just leave it as it is too *shrug* but I like my idea

 

[Nirmara]

I can understand that as far as game design goes, but I don't feel like I'm proposing anything particularly radical by offering to be able to have the option to salvage alternate FLT options from your enemies and research them if you want. Maybe very few people would use this option if it became available, but I'm thinking of it as a quality of life thing

Enabling mix FTL type would make the choosing an FTL drive trivial. I don't understand why you want to make the starting weapon choice more meaningful while advocating for making the FTL one trivial.

The idea would be that the concepts behind how those technologies work are, at best, experimental if not unheard of, however once your race has analyzed someone else's working examples, they can put it together themselves. Because again: I am *not* talking about locking people out of getting access to those techs in game

Right now, we are using or developing missiles, lasers and railguns so I don't see why in 200 years we would forget the theory behind them or stop researching them. After all, the introduction of missiles did not stop the development or the use of regular artillery even if they serve the same purpose.

Look, all I'm saying is that I'm pretty sure no one cares about what weapon they choose for their species at the start of the game. If that's the case then they might as well make weapon choice for species go the way of the colony ship tech and ditch it. Alternatively my idea. Or yeah, sure, we could just leave it as it is too *shrug* but I like my idea

Granted, the decision could be more meaningful, but locking weapon type an empire can research to the empire creation seem's to me as an extreme way to make this decision more important. Also, weapon choice can already have an impact very early on since it can take a while before you get the opportunity to research the others.

 

[Riftwalker]

It's possible to get wrong-ftl-type ships today through integration. They can't be combined into fleets with ships of other FTL types.

thankfully they just need to be "upgraded" to receive the correct type.

 

[Slynx]

Make your starting weapon choice lock your empire to that weapon branch, i.e. if you pick lasers then the tech for all lasers, plasma and disruptors will become available for research over time, but not projectile or missile. However, if you fight another empire that has projectiles or missiles equipped, you can salvage their ships and research the technology of the weapon they were using, just like if you had killed space creatures, but not continue in that research branch. So you can diversify if you beat other empires, assimilating their tech, but never really be as good at it as they can be

right now mass drivers rocks in the early game. but if you limit us to 1 branch then las will be no brainer (plasma+tachion+disruptor). and if you find kinetic art - you're golden. so i doubt it's a good idea
missiles are useless.

In addition to the above, if you fight an empire with an FTL drive that you don't have, you can salvage their ships to unlock the research for their FTL drive

better wait for rework.

locked out of FLT options since game release

jump drive is like advanced wormholes, advanced warp ..and almost advanced hyperlains. so it's enough imho. besides mixing ftl will be a huge pain

 

[BrokenSky]

I would like the starting weapon to mean more though. What if you also got a reasonable boost (say 15%?) to researching techs weapons of that weapon type?

 

[alphamikefox]

Enabling mix FTL type would make the choosing an FTL drive trivial. I don't understand why you want to make the starting weapon choice more meaningful while advocating for making the FTL one trivial.

How would it make it trivial? I'm leveling the playing field between them; they will both be equally meaningful (or equally trivial, as your opinion on my idea may be). I'm not proposing an idea for FTL that I am not also proposing the same for weapons, and vice versa

Right now, we are using or developing missiles, lasers and railguns so I don't see why in 200 years we would forget the theory behind them or stop researching them. After all, the introduction of missiles did not stop the development or the use of regular artillery even if they serve the same purpose.

My experience with human history is that we humans take the path of least economic resistance. Take the example of the steam engine: its use in most industrial capacities fell by the wayside when electricity was found to be more practical and cheaper, even though further advances in steam power may have yielded interesting and efficient technologies that we just didn't feel like pursuing. When humans really get invested in space travel and space combat becomes a thing, we may dabble in prototypes of various forms of weaponry, but eventually economics will see humans settling into a specific tech tree, if you will. Now if we encounter an alien race that has perfected a different form of space weaponry and made it effective, maybe we'll reverse engineer it. That's my thinking

I know I'm theorizing here, so you may very well be right and I wrong, so I won't belabor this argument

Granted, the decision could be more meaningful, but locking weapon type an empire can research to the empire creation seem's to me as an extreme way to make this decision more important. Also, weapon choice can already have an impact very early on since it can take a while before you get the opportunity to research the others.

What impact? Are level 1 weapons before armor and shields are researched really that different from one another?

Anyway, see below:

right now mass drivers rocks in the early game. but if you limit us to 1 branch then las will be no brainer (plasma+tachion+disruptor). and if you find kinetic art - you're golden. so i doubt it's a good idea
missiles are useless.

Fine, agreed, doing it right now without balancing is pointless. Buuuut I'm not suggesting that at all

...assuming anyone on these forums doesn't do selective reading...

jump drive is like advanced wormholes, advanced warp ..and almost advanced hyperlains. so it's enough imho. besides mixing ftl will be a huge pain

Then don't mix FTL on your ships. I still would like to add the option for people who want to. I like to think that people generally like having more options rather than less

 

[TheDeadlyShoe]

'more options' often creates muddled gameplay where your choices dont matter, and it often turns out one choice was the best and all the 'options' were pointless anyway

it also eliminates drawbacks of certain choices by allowing you to ameliorate them or switch up as needed

it also makes everything boring by making everything the same

 

[terrycloth]

My whole point is about *not* locking players out of *any* options. I think it's weird that players have been locked out of FLT options since game release, while the empire weapon choice is irrelevant. In game, I propose that you can fight and salvage any other option you want

Federation fleets can already take any FTL drive in the federation, you just can't merge mixed FTL fleets. Plus jump drives/psi drives. It's not unprecedented

If it were me, I'd just let anybody take strike craft; leave it open for anyone to research mid-game. But in general I agree that missiles should currently get extra attention. From what we've heard they'll get some buff with Utopia, so we'll see. Could still use an XL slot I think...anywho that's not what I want this thread to be about. I'm not suggesting balance changes, those'll happen, I'm suggesting player choice options

I'd personally rather see more actual weapons than just buffs, or maybe both. I generally prefer more diversity options to make each species feel unique, rather than piling on the modifiers. Like I think it would be cool to have a purple-tech for each, kinetic/missile/laser, that's size specific. For example: purple tech small kinetic/laser/missile (each different and with varying stats/abilites), and a purple tech medium, purple tech large, etc.

Okay, for this to work you'd need to rework all the weapons, because everyone needs to have a way to:
(a) Hit high-evasion targets (currently: missiles, autocannon, arc emitters, and strangely enough disruptors)
(b) Damage high-armor targets (currently: non-energy torpedos, lasers, plasma, giga-canon, lances, arc emitters)
(c) Get through shields (currently: torpedoes, bombers, disruptors, railguns, kinetic artillery, arc emitters)
(d) shoot down missiles and strike craft (currently: point defense (lasers), flak (kinetic), fighters)

So... it's actually not *too* far off? The main problem is that plasma and lances are *so* good against armor that it might as well not even exist, while it's a huge advantage against missiles and kinetics. Kinetics aren't even really better against shields -- it's just that their non-specialized weapons are better against shields and shields tend to go down quickly. (because the best case is -20% shield damage from plasma which is close to the worst case for battleship armor)

You might want to go with the MOO convention of force fields doing nothing whatsoever against railguns. Or giving them 80% penetration maybe, so that using shields against railguns is like using armor against plasma.