PIAT vs Bazooka and Schreck

[IronHat]

PIAT should produce significantly less noise while firing. In other word, firing the PIAT should not break stealth.

The PIAT was a spigot mortar. In simplified term, this means the PIAT fire its round by striking the propellant charge located in the tail. By comparison, both the bazooka and schreck used a rocket mortar on their projectile.

While this give the PIAT significant recoil, it also give the PIAT a much more discrete firing signature compared to the rockets. The PIAT's recoil is already represent in game by its shorter range and worse accuracy compare to the bazooka and the schreck, so the PIAT should also be make significantly more stealth.

Both the panzerschreck and Bazooka were notoriously obvious once fired. The panzerschreck rocket motor would continue to burn after it exited the tube, requiring its user to wear a protective mask until the addition of the distinctive protective plate on the later model . This is why the panzerschreck were also known as "ofenrohor" (stove pipe).

The rocket on the bazooka would have finished burning by the time it exited the tube, producing less smoke than the schreck.

 

[Kaziglu]

I doubt the necessity to bring this factor into the game on account of realism alone, and on that topic the PIAT should then have its effective range shortened significantly. I'd prefer the unrealisticly long range so that it can at least be used sometimes.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

A tank going 'boom!' with remnants of crewmen spattering down around you is a pretty fair indicator that the enemy is nearby. Stealth fail...

No hard feelings Ironhat, but I think a few of us long-term forum posters are getting a bit too 'keen' (and yes, I've been guilty of it too )....

 

[Alex646]

What about very high accuracy of Panzerschreck? 10 from 10, guys. I think this is too huge.

 

[Jonnydodger]

I imagine the PIAT was stealthy to an extent. The round hitting a tank would certainly give away that there is a PIAT close by. Finding the source is another matter. But I imagine a German tank commander would at least be smart enough to hypothesise where they would most likely be. I.E, if a PIAT round landed on the right side of your tank and there's a forest to the right, chances are it came from the forest.

As for the range in game (200m), I think it's in the realm of reality. The PIATs effective firing range according to wikipedia is 110m, but it's indirect range was over 300m. If you notice the animation in game, you'll see that it fires in an arc, like a mortar. Which makes it's in game range somewhat believable.

 

[Hidden Gunman]

I imagine the PIAT was stealthy to an extent. The round hitting a tank would certainly give away that there is a PIAT close by. Finding the source is another matter. But I imagine a German tank commander would at least be smart enough to hypothesise where they would most likely be. I.E, if a PIAT round landed on the right side of your tank and there's a forest to the right, chances are it came from the forest.

As for the range in game (200m), I think it's in the realm of reality. The PIATs effective firing range according to wikipedia is 110m, but it's indirect range was over 300m. If you notice the animation in game, you'll see that it fires in an arc, like a mortar. Which makes it's in game range somewhat believable.

Both PIAT and Panzerfaust had clear arcs, Bazooka and P/Schrek not so much. In fact, the PIAT and P/Faust rounds were effective because of the ballistic arc vs sloped armour.

 

[Karlburg]

I find it bizarre that the panzershreck/faust are so much more accurate than the bazooka/piat. They should be pretty similar.

 

[IronHat]

A tank going 'boom!' with remnants of crewmen spattering down around you is a pretty fair indicator that the enemy is nearby. Stealth fail...

No hard feelings Ironhat, but I think a few of us long-term forum posters are getting a bit too 'keen' (and yes, I've been guilty of it too )....

there's a difference between knowing you've been hit versus knowing where the shot came from.

 

[Malakin]

Somthing to note about AT weapons, none that produced backblast could be fired indoors (without heavy modification of the building), overpressure is a bitch.

PIAT however could be with its small propellant charge and non recoiless design.

PS. the PIAT was not a catapult, but a mortar, just incase someone still had that weird misconception heh.

 

[Karlburg]

Also I do want to say that the Axis does generally pay for having better infantry AT weapons(typically their units pay for the pfaust where piats and bazookas come free on normal infantry, and the dedicated teams for piats and bazookas are cheaper than pshrecks).

 

[dmdelor]

Also I do want to say that the Axis does generally pay for having better infantry AT weapons

typically their units pay for the pfaust where piats and bazookas come free on normal infantry

The PIATs and Bazookas aren't free. They probably should be for the squads that pay +5 points for them, though, because they're generally giving up other stuff in exchange for a mediocre RPG. A breakdown of Allied units that gain an RPG vs similar non-RPG units:

-US riflemen give up 2xsquad support weapons for them, which makes them really terrible at infantry fighting.

-Dragoni give up 2 strength (and 2 rifles) and cost 5 points more than the equivalent non-RPG rifleman.

-Motorized rifles give up the least versus the standard rifleman, but they still lose 2 strength + 2 rifles. They also lose the ability to come in free transports, which can be painful when you have an infantry meatgrinder going. And, of course, the base Guards rifleman these compare to already cost 20 points despite only having a single Bren for squad support and no RPGs.

-Guards rifle leaders give up a squad support weapon, a smoke grenade, AND cost 5 points more than the non-RPG leader unit.

-Harder to say for sure with the 10-strength US RPG rifle leaders, since they've got leadership muddying the caculation, but at 35 points each it seems likely they're paying extra, too.

You not only pay, but typically it's a pretty significant cost in exchange for a mediocre AT capability.

The factions that get that bad deal are even the lucky factions, despite that; the guys who only get RPGs on dedicated teams and command units are really hosed if there's a big CQ brawl with a combined arms Axis force. Dedicated RPG teams have their role, but they and RPG-equipped command units are a poor substitute for organic RPG capability in a proper infantry furball because they're too flimsy and low availability.

the dedicated teams for piats and bazookas are cheaper than pshrecks

They are, and it's a much better situation than the INF-tab RPG situation, at least. Cheaper though they may be, however, Eugen already has resorted to giving a bunch of them +2 ACC to make them worthwhile because of the poor performance of the Allied RPGs, especially the low-ACC PIAT. The ones that haven't gotten that accuracy buff are still generally pretty marginal units.

 

[dmdelor]

As an addendum on the Axis side of the RPG fence:

Those ACC 10 Panzerfaust 60s that the Axis pay more for? You pay less for them than the Allies do for their RPGs vs the equivalent units without. 5 points, no strength loss, no secondary armament loss. There's fewer direct comparisons than the Allies have, but examples from a quick pass over the Axis rosters:

-PZG with no RPG vs PZG with RPG? 5 point difference, no other trade-offs.

-Grenadier vs Ita Freiwillige? 5 point difference, and have a better SMG and some vet in the trade-up.
(Dragoni, at least, get a vet-up too, although that was a recent balance tweak; yet another recognition by Eugen of how poor the Allied RPG situation is)

-Grenadier with no RPG vs Grenadier with RPG? 5 point difference, no other trade-offs.

Basically, German units pay a flat 5 points for the Panzerfaust and lose nothing else. This is a 150m RPG vs 200m RPGs, but ACC 10 paired with the fact that you're not also giving up extra anti-infantry efficiency beyond the price hike makes it a vastly superior trade.

The Axis nearly universally get better RPG options and pricing than the Allies when it comes to organic integration into full-strength units.