Phoenix Fire: The American Post Apocolyptic Mod

[ulrichomega]

@ ulrichomega: sounds good.

EDIT: I disagree about Panama, however. If the AI can handle it, I think it would be better for gameplay to have the oceans separate. That way the Catholics will have a "protected" supply-line to Mexico, which should help them stand up to the Congressional crusaders.

Re. Newfoundland, my main objection is that the current setup cuts off the two northern provinces, which is where Newfoundland actually can be crossed overland, and allows you to cross it in the south where I don't think there is even a road. I'd combine the two provinces in Labrador (that's really empty), and add one more to Newfoundland something like below. Red marks province borders, black marks impassible borders (including a section that could be PTI, if that would be easier).

I'll yield to the expert in this matter.

 

[Orinsul]

Some non-map related things:

1. What's the general backstory for the South/Central Americans, Caribbeans, and Canadians? We've got general concepts for them (Catholic civilization, traders, etc.) but nothing as developed as the "waves" of invaders we have for the Americans, or the Mexican conflict.
2. What are the Caribbean/Latin cultures?
3. How many empires are there going to be? IIRC, Mexico and the US were going to have de jure empires and Canada was going to have a potentially creatable de facto one. What about South America? Should it also have a de facto potential empire?

My Idea for Empires would be one per religion. The Provisionals and Crusaders both having their byzantine empires from the start, the Congressional HRE likewise being in from day one but the others having to form them. And then one for the invaders from across the plains.
For the Latins, i would think having all of south american under one de facto empire, so that in most games itll never form but in those rares ones when it does its unstoppable, like Germany was in Victoria only without events to help it along.

As for Latin backstory, and be warned im making this up as i go so it might be nonesense, something along the lines of there being an out of the way monastery or something that was isolated enough to keep going more or less in a recognisable state through the storm that then slowly over centuries reached out to surrounded communities and expanded until it had too many branches so had to establish a hierarchy but still very much a monastic organisation concerned with little outside its own walls, sent out for news from all corners to try and reestablish contact with the church and eventually coming to the conclusion that they were all that was left of it set them selves up as it. [Possibly in argentina or paraguay or somewhere.]
Now taking upon its shoulders the responsibility of the Church it started getting involved in the development of the communities around it, and over time its duties, power and position changed until it was the integral heart of an entire civilisation, constantly expanding bringing more and more of the peoples and nations into it and bringing an end to the long ages of chaos and ignorance.
Eventually converting the populous and powerful north, and either moving the papacy then seeing it as the centre of civilisation/power or the northern kings offering the papacy temporal holdings in exchange for the privilege of having the papacy in their part of the world or maybe even it not being until this state that a Grand-Abbot or whatever finally took the presumption to claim the Throne of St. Peter and moving the governance of the church to himself in the north. But anyway, eventually within a century or two of the start of the game the Papal States or whatever we'll call them getting established on the map. [Not originating on the map to make the conflict between the two civilisations as new one, Latin eyes only recently turned north after centuries of being kept busy uniting and civilising the south. And also to allow for a strongly Latin Catholic off-map south to provide a Mongoly invasion to reclaim the on-map south america if it falls to the Democratics or Heresy]
The history being dominated by a cycle of counter-heresy revolutions to tie it in to the Phoenix theme and allow it to be both terribly old but still energetically young [What the Plains invasions do to in the North]. M.A. declines, church challenged by a number of heretical movements, one becomes powerful and almost destroys it, church rallies and beats it back, Church is reinvigorated and new progressive period begins, then it slips into content idleness, M.A. declines, etc. And basically how it worked in real history too so tried and proven.
And then getting into the period of upper nobility over-population and militant and religious restlessness that results in the crusading movements into Mexico and sparking off the conflict of the game which i wrote out somewhere on the first page and once i remember where will site it.

For Canadians, something like a for a few hundred years disorganisation in the peoples south of them allowed them to become very rich as river and coast raiders but as the democratics got their act together the wealth began to dry up and without it the cultural, religious and political differences between turned to full divisions and as the money decreased the squabbling over it grew until you get the situation of the start of the game where each town, valley and bridge has its own king and its all just a mess of warlords and tribes who hate each other but with the memory of recently having been united in a golden age when all were rich and powerful giving whoever unites them the legitimacy not just to be an Emperor but also a religion-headeror.

For the Caribbeans, maybe many little peoples who all developed independently but through all starting as fishermen and ending as traders by the start of the game are more or less a united people. Or maybe something like the polynesians where whenever they got too many people on one island half of them migrated to another. I dont know, i havent really thought about them beyond just being conquerable.
Theyre caught inbetween the two so probably something along the lines of having played off each side against each other for great profit during the cold conflict but never committed to either but guaranteeing their independence through the prospect that they could easy go with the other side if provoked too and with a good deal of their wealth in recent times having come from middle-manning trade between the two civilisations before the trade republics of New Orleans and whoever is the souths version of it went over their heads creating a crisis at the start of the game where the old merchant run establishment is losing ground to a rising nobility dissatisfied with the fall in living standard and putting the blame on their own merchant princes rather than the growing foreign conflict or changing times.
So maybe the game could start with recently victorious dukes/kings with much more powerful cities than castles under them so at risk of losing everything if they dont keep the cities on side or with republics outnumbered in active rebellions for their primary titles so the player if he wanted to play a caribbeanian or whatever could take part in it. Or a mix of both as is there rather a lot of it so all bar st dominics could have already have the nobles win.
As if it was just all city states then players couldnt play them, but having recently been city states and having the city barons three to one more powerful than their noble counts would make a situation that i dont think the game has so a fun and challenging option, not only are you pagan but if the mayors rebel, and they will, then youre out.

 

[Jaol]

For the Latins, i would think having all of south american under one de facto empire, so that in most games itll never form but in those rares ones when it does its unstoppable, like Germany was in Victoria only without events to help it along.

Might as well make it de jure then, no? We can put extra conditions on forming it above the usual 50% of provinces, if need be.

As for Latin backstory, ... The history being dominated by a cycle of counter-heresy revolutions

I like this. Perhaps at the start of the game there will still be some heretical areas in SA. In NA, we've got an implied history by virtue of the different culture groups--in SA we can suggest the backstory with heretic provinces and/or rulers.

For the Caribbeans, ... Theyre caught inbetween the two so probably something along the lines of having played off each side against each other ... middle-manning trade between the two civilisations ...

I think that works. The main trade routes would hug the coast, so Florida and western Cuba would be the richest areas, with everything getting progressively poorer as you move away from there. Giving them more lord-mayors ties in with that, and helps make them a bit different. Perhaps fewer temple-type holdings as well.

To further emphasize that they are a cross-roads, perhaps we should have some areas start out as Catholic or Catholic heresies, and others have holdings belonging to the republic of New Orleans.

 

[Orinsul]

i got de facto and de jure mixed up, its the de bit. its the same in both and gets you if you hardly pay attention to what youre typing and then dont proof read. No worries, it was the forming one i meant.

With Baronies, itd probably be quite easy to have scattered holdings belonging to New Orleans and whoever gets to be their latin reflection throughout the gulf and islands. And having scattered heresies is a great idea for representing the syncratic results of the influence of opposing missionaries.

 

[ulrichomega]

No more work on the mod done tonight. Huge amounts of work for class tomorrow. I could post the C program I've been writing, but it's honestly not that relevant to the mod.

@Jaol, I've yet to make the changes to Newfoundland, and there's a small possibility I might forget. Next time I post a map, could you check to make sure I made the changes?

Next step, assuming people are fine with the province map, is going to be completing the definition.csv. On that note, if anyone has ideas for province names, let me know! What are the naming schemes going to be? How close to current day names will most of them be? Ideas welcome.

From the definitions.csv, the real meat of the work can begin. We've kind of been held back by the lack of province information, but from here on out, we can really get going. It should be noted that my experience with anything beyond leader files is very, very limited. I'll be learning as I go, and so won't be of as much help as I have been.

EDIT: CK2 begins with the Norman Conquest. Does this mod have a similar thing?

 

[Orinsul]

As names on the map in CK2 are in modern english then itd probably be ok to do that too, take a random town or river from the province and give the provinces its name or make one up if thats easier. The good thing is its all localisation so seconds to change later.
Im good at text file modding, atleast culture, religion, titles and localisation, probably history too though i havent tried yet. But its the same as all the other paradox games so no worries.

For a start game conflict its more starting with the Seljuk-Byzantium war rather the Norman Conquest, with the Indianan Confederacy finishing up its conquests, but maybe something game changing depending on who wins could be done with the starting active wars in mexico?

 

[ulrichomega]

I was thinking something more something in Canada. Maybe the Duke of Prince Edward Island (who also has a claim on Nova Scotia) could invade and conquer New Brunswick? or switch New Brunswick and Nova Scotia? The region isn't in the center of huge amounts of intrigue, and it would give novice players a nice, interesting, and relatively powerful (but nowhere near the power of an Emperor) character to play as. They also have a few areas to expand into (Newfoundland/Labrador to the Northeast, Quebec to the Northwest, etc.).

 

[ulrichomega]

What I'm doing with the province names: Take pseudo-random feature from province (middling town, national park, island, etc.), and assign that name to a province. We can argue over specifics later, as well as modifying the names to simulate a millennia of linguistic changes.

So far, only the far north of Canada (!) is done. It's somewhat of a slow process, as I'm creating an official provinces.bmp as I go. I'd expect it to be done sometime next week. For right now, my brain is utterly fried (multithreaded-programming-woo!).

 

[Orinsul]

What I'm doing with the province names: Take pseudo-random feature from province (middling town, national park, island, etc.), and assign that name to a province. We can argue over specifics later, as well as modifying the names to simulate a millennia of linguistic changes.

So far, only the far north of Canada (!) is done. It's somewhat of a slow process, as I'm creating an official provinces.bmp as I go. I'd expect it to be done sometime next week. For right now, my brain is utterly fried (multithreaded-programming-woo!).

Is this work that could be done by collaboration? As it might be something more easily, or atleast quickly done, if different people did different regions but as im not entirely sure what it is your doing i cant say if thatd work.

Probably in the end version there might be more fictional names ior altered than not, but for any of that to be done there needs to be a groundwork, a foundation and thats what the modern names would be, and some would stay modern anyway, if the region becomes known from one town or one river etc.
Baronies can probably be named provincename_1, provincename_2 etc in the landed titles and have random names or map names given to them later once its tested and proved running.

ive been thinking mostly duchy above, but probably with all itd be a good line to take their names from principal towns, historic tribes or geographic regions. But that is very much a localisation issue that can be changed after the fact.

 

[Andrelvis]

Ooh are you going to add the rest of South America to the map eventually?

 

[Orinsul]

Ooh are you going to add the rest of South America to the map eventually?

Probably not, maybe alittle to make it match the north. But the two halves are pretty much balanced at the moment and the jungle is enough of a barrier to justify ending it. Just think about how much is PTI in EU3, its about the same level of technology as far as where it makes sedimentary settlement work. If Argentina and everything was in its raised issues from the distance, as due to the mechanics being on the map means being involved in the politics of every part of the map and it wouldnt make sense that far apart and it probably make the latins utterly unstoppable too. So i feel its better to have the borders end where they are, as CKs end not where the land does but where the scope of the game does, and abstract everything past them into events.

 

[ulrichomega]

@Orinsul. Absolutely, though I'm not sure how it could be done easily. At the very least, we would have to assign province number blocks to certain regions (Mexico = 100-250), or something. Also, I'm just doing definition.csv. All that does is tell the game which province is which. I've not touched anything outside of the /map folder.

@Andrelvis, probably not, sorry. That would require completely reworking everything we have so far (admittedly not much compared to an entire mod, but still a fair amount of work). Though the groundwork would certainly have been laid if people wanted to do something like that.

 

[Jaol]

@Orinsul. Absolutely, though I'm not sure how it could be done easily. At the very least, we would have to assign province number blocks to certain regions (Mexico = 100-250), or something. Also, I'm just doing definition.csv. All that does is tell the game which province is which. I've not touched anything outside of the /map folder.

What about this: we make a province number reference guide (like the one in this thread) and use that to divide up the work.

So, first you'd need to post the latest version of the map, and mark all the provinces you've already done. Next someone would complete the reference guide by assigning numbers to all the remaining provinces. Then we can each take a range of province numbers and do the grunt work of finding the correct province color and coming up with names.

 

[Arcaul]

That's the way we are doing it right now over in the Warhammer mod here's the spreadsheet we are using to keep everything straight https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Alqhgz5h9Te1dGxPX1RLcERfTmhDcGk5UktqZ2RpalE

Here's the spreadsheet used by the Game of Thrones mod as well (there's is probably a better quality) https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Akk5_SIvVbYSdGpPSFRkMDZ5aXVaUkV1cXZkelV2S2c#gid=5

 

[ulrichomega]

Hm... Both of those methods are far more efficient than the one I was thinking of.

I'll construct a province map with province numbers on it, and then we can get to work on a spreadsheet and coloring things in. I'll be editing this post with final province totals for certain regions (just because), and then I'll post the map.

Also, we're going to have to rearrange duchies. A few of the ones right now are a bit big.

EDIT: Better idea. Province ranges!

Canada: 1-61
US: 62-396
Mexico: 397-553
Central America: 554-594
Caribbean: 595-691
Venezuela: 692-754
Colombia: 755-849
Ecuador/Peru: 850-892

 

[LolCakeLazors]

That would be awesome if we could simply collaborate.

 

[Arcaul]

That would be awesome if we could simply collaborate.

Sure I would be willing to collaborate in any way possible.

 

[ulrichomega]

Okay, how this is going to work.

1. I'll post a map with province numbers on it, along with the ranges that cover certain regions and a provinces.bmp
2. I will post a Google Doc with rudimentary information. I'm not sure how to control access to it, so I guess I'll have to figure that out. I think there's a "Request Access" thing, so that might be enough. Just tell me you're requesting access.
3. People will grab regions, post here saying "I'm doing province x through province y," and fill in each province with the right color, and hopefully the Google Doc with a province name/barony names.
4. Post about the work you've done here.

Any complaints? I'm sure I've forgotten something; I haven't quite recovered from the past week.

EDIT: Province numbers! (note: see edits)

Google Docs!

I'm still not sure how it's going to work out. I don't want to let literally everybody edit the doc, because who knows how long until someone comes along and says "You know what? I feel like destroying the hard work of others, today." I think there's a "Request ACcess" thing, so click that, and it'll tell me you want permission to edit it.

EDIT2: I missed a province in Canada. Gorrammit. Uh... Policy for adding provinces! Add the number at the end of the numbering scheme, and to the right section of the doc!

EDIT3: Nevermind, I missed a province number in Texas, so it works out. I'm going through and doing duchy numbers (grouping provinces together). I'll post a corrected version of the province map when I'm done.

EDIT4: Here's the one with new province numbers. http://i.imgur.com/hbdGf.png, and here's the latest provinces.bmp for you all to play around with. http://i.imgur.com/7oq9e.png. The upper Canadian provinces look like they're done, but I messed them up, so they'll have to be recolored.

I'll do the US. If anyone wants any other region, just say so here so that we don't have seven people furiously fighting over entering province names for Havanna.

 

[LolCakeLazors]

I just sent you a request for editing privileges.

 

[ulrichomega]

Got it and responded. Tell me if you can edit, please.

Also, apparently I am editing the doc 5 times at once. I have no idea how that happened.