Phase C is basically a free win for Axis

[Radioshow]

This is why the game is withering away for me. I'm getting bored with this dynamic of either 'Grab as much as you can and then hang on for dear life for 20 minutes' playing as Allies or 'Grab what you can and then roll for 20 minutes' as Axis.

It can be fun but it isn't going to keep me around.

Pretty much this. I Roll "Turd Arm" and do very well, they have all the tools if a little lacking in AP overall but that bloody low income.
I have to super-micro-manage my super stuarts and get the best possible advantage as regardless of what you do it's always hard to attack and much harder when you're enemy outclasses your tanks so much.
Panthers/Tigers/KT for example can be very hard to suppress. Any of these are generally very high vet and ACC and will one shot you. Hell i got replay of me with 4-5 tanks all point blank(m5/m4/jumbo/76) all firing on a KT and not killing it lol and it was firing back killing 3 or 4 and it was already half suppressed(had already killed 1 or 2 KT).
I did everything right had AT guns/tanks in cover waited to fire, used p38's rocketing it, smoke you name it. Sometimes you just cant stop the bastich. You can say they cost alot but it cost as much or more to counter them unless they walk right into you blindly.
Need a little more income in A/B

 

[IS-2]

This is why the game is withering away for me. I'm getting bored with this dynamic of either 'Grab as much as you can and then hang on for dear life for 20 minutes' playing as Allies or 'Grab what you can and then roll for 20 minutes' as Axis.

It can be fun but it isn't going to keep me around.

this is only the dynamic against lehr and 12th SS... there is more axis divisions in the game than their late game armour divisions. and it is not a general rule that u 'hang on for dear life' for 20 minutes. the game is more about how u use your units than what units u use.

Pretty much this. I Roll "Turd Arm" and do very well, they have all the tools if a little lacking in AP overall but that bloody low income.
I have to super-micro-manage my super stuarts and get the best possible advantage as regardless of what you do it's always hard to attack and much harder when you're enemy outclasses your tanks so much.
Panthers/Tigers/KT for example can be very hard to suppress. Any of these are generally very high vet and ACC and will one shot you. Hell i got replay of me with 4-5 tanks all point blank(m5/m4/jumbo/76) all firing on a KT and not killing it lol and it was firing back killing 3 or 4 and it was already half suppressed(had already killed 1 or 2 KT).
I did everything right had AT guns/tanks in cover waited to fire, used p38's rocketing it, smoke you name it. Sometimes you just cant stop the bastich. You can say they cost alot but it cost as much or more to counter them unless they walk right into you blindly.
Need a little more income in A/B

side attack with m4a3 76 for auto kill. and none of those tanks could even scratch a konigs frontally. why even attempt it lol.

BUT!!!!!!!!!! i think allied tank card efficiency needs to go up now... mostly for 3AD and guards.

 

[Radioshow]

this is only the dynamic against lehr and 12th SS... there is more axis divisions in the game than their late game armour divisions. and it is not a general rule that u 'hang on for dear life' for 20 minutes. the game is more about how u use your units than what units u use.



side attack with m4a3 76 for auto kill. and none of those tanks could even scratch a konigs frontally. why even attempt it lol.

BUT!!!!!!!!!! i think allied tank card efficiency needs to go up now... mostly for 3AD and guards.

LOL!!! I didnt he came to ME!!! I have already killed alot and this one managed to keep coming, as he came past the hedge I had eveything pull out and point blank it for fun(we had already long won) and it took many mike tyson punches to the chin and just laughed. Unfortuneately the weaker tanks happened to be on the side showing.

 

[sam hamwitch]

I think it would make the allies a bit more interesting if a couple of their divisions were stronger in phase C. From a balance point of view "allies strong in phase A, axis strong in phase C" is fine, but as others have said, it makes the game a bit predictable.

The next question is: what's a balanced way of giving allies some real phase C clout? I think letting 3AD actually flood the map with shermans in phase C would be a good place to start. Other than that I'm not sure though.

 

[Admiral_Awesome]

The amount of whining about how op the axis is perceived to be is getting a bit excessive again.
If you play allies you push in A and B and suffer in C. If you play axis, you suffer in A and B and push in C. Simple as that.
If you charge with shermans against king tigers, you are doing something wrong. If you have problems dealing with Lehr in phase A and the excessive amount of 4(!) Panzergrenadiere they get, you are doing something wrong too. The axis divisions with good tank capabilities have drawbacks, like the lack of infantry (Lehr) or proper aa (windhund).

 

[Alte]

Keep running scared, and make all the excuses you wish.

"Pathetic"

"Runnning scared", what are you 12 ? The point is this is not a contest between you and me, this is about balance....something you still cannot grasp.

 

[Ahab78]

ehm. Just take examples like the 3rd armoured. 65 in phase A, well. You are really going to spank everyone with theat income, right? 150 in phase C. Huzzah! And with wich sexy toys from C are you going to stop the Berlin Zoo?

Jumbo+76W combined? KT is laughing in your face. (insert L2p here..."just stun, flank, ballet maneuvre, spam it, smoke him, do this do that." Yeah. What do I have to do with Axis in C? Buy a KT, and attack move him. "but you need arty, gifhters supporting inf." Sure, you need the same as Allies. Even more of it. But KT will still wipe the table, while the first HS to swoop in will eat most tanks in no time, GUARANTEED.)

I don't say that 3rd Armoured would be explicitly bad. It's a strong division. I like them. You have got a very strong unit setup for A and B. Only that your income in A is just too low to make agressively use of it and in C you got all the points but can only buy stuff for it that won't stop the German creme de la creme from destroying you.

Compare it to Lehr.

Bad A income, weak and narrow phase A unit setup. 3rd Armoured can get past them, but not necessarily. With equally distributed skill and RNG Lehr can succeed in containing Allied phase A push. As soon as B begins, chances are equal. In C, well. There's only one clear winner and it's perfectly possible to easily make good potential A,B losses.

Balance is not completely borked, BUT there are a few Axis units (mainly 20mils and HS+Ju87G) that need urgent adjusting and Allied income/Veterancy distribution that should be looked at. I'm not going to rage about offmap/rocket arty cheese now. It's equally distributed and annyoing. I don't think it would be a good solution to add heavier on map arty to the allies (something comparable to Hummels or Sk18s.) We have already enough bloody arty on the map. Those one klick tools are the things that make people lazy and gmaes stale.

But, it's already hard enough for me to find Allied players. I'd like to keep it balanced and play Axis because I'm in the mood, not because I have to.

 

[megalos]

"Runnning scared", what are you 12 ? The point is this is not a contest between you and me, this is about balance....something you still cannot grasp.

I can grasp it, it never started out as a "you and me", it turned out that way, when you told me I couldn't hold off in phase A with Lehr. It's easy if you're careful (how most Axis div's play in A), you have access to 9 AT guns, some good infantry + commander, plus the supporting HT's, excellent recon, vet fighters and a Pwerfer - a tool for every job.

 

[Alte]

ehm. Just take examples like the 3rd armoured. 65 in phase A, well. You are really going to spank everyone with theat income, right? 150 in phase C. Huzzah! And with wich sexy toys from C are you going to stop the Berlin Zoo?

I am the first one to say 65 in Phase A for 3rd AD is too little.

 

[DPK]

I just hope those phase C fireflies don't miss that often, honestly, 210pts phase C noob veterancy paper-skin 17pdr carrier is meh.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

I just hope those phase C fireflies don't misses that often, honestly, 210pts phase C noob veterancy paper-skin 17pdr carrier is meh.

They're utterly useless, especially against 2 and 3 star King Tigers and Panthers.

 

[Herr_Robert]

The amount of whining about how op the axis is perceived to be is getting a bit excessive again.
If you play allies you push in A and B and suffer in C. If you play axis, you suffer in A and B and push in C. Simple as that.
If you charge with shermans against king tigers, you are doing something wrong. If you have problems dealing with Lehr in phase A and the excessive amount of 4(!) Panzergrenadiere they get, you are doing something wrong too. The axis divisions with good tank capabilities have drawbacks, like the lack of infantry (Lehr) or proper aa (windhund).

On higher skill level games it's unbalanced because the German tank busters in phase A can effectively force the Allies to buy AA or fighters (or keep $ in reserve) or refrain from using tanks by just existing. By contrast, you don't have to take that into account when playing as Windhund.

For average and below average players it's easier to play as the Germans because they require less micromanagement. As the Allies you have to use smoke, stun and get flank shots to kill heavy German tanks; as the Germans you have to point and click.

 

[TGApples]

They're utterly useless, especially against 2 and 3 star King Tigers and Panthers.

I dunno. I find they do alright if I can get air superiority. Peekaboo from two different directions combined with bombs is lovely to take out a KT. Bomb and move from cover works for smaller tanks.

Trouble is, you can do similar with AP 13. It'll sometimes bounce off the side, but you've still got a pretty good pen chance.

 

[I WUB PUGS]

I dunno. I find they do alright if I can get air superiority. Peekaboo from two different directions combined with bombs is lovely to take out a KT. Bomb and move from cover works for smaller tanks.

Trouble is, you can do similar with AP 13. It'll sometimes bounce off the side, but you've still got a pretty good pen chance.

I've killed KT's with'em too, but they just don't seem price efficient. I almost don't even bother turning the damn gun on unless I've got a perfect sideshot so I know I'll get the second one in before the KT turns on me. Very rarely does a KT not kill my Firefly on the first shot.

Firefly is pricey for an ambush vehicle.

 

[TGApples]

I've killed KT's with'em too, but they just don't seem price efficient. I almost don't even bother turning the damn gun on unless I've got a perfect sideshot so I know I'll get the second one in before the KT turns on me. Very rarely does a KT not kill my Firefly on the first shot.

Firefly is pricey for an ambush vehicle.

True enough, but it can go against Panthers and Tigers face-to-face if you can get the morale advantage and two stars of vet. Especially if they lack a commander.

 

[Drang]

German infantry superior.
German tanks superior.
German artillery superior.

I do wonder why we're having balance issues.

 

[artemasward]

You're just not using smoke Drang.

superior Aryan smoke shape

 

[Drang]

British doctrine calls for indirect fire to be used to obliterate the enemy, not lay smokescreens.

 

[Tank Hunter]

What would be pertinent to the discussion is to have some actual data that shows how often each side wins. No doubt Eugen could or do collect this data, and it could be published.

Anecdotally, I see Axis as stronger, winning more often, and I see the players believe this is true.

Very often I can not play as Axis, because all their slots are taken, and they are just waiting for a few people silly enough to play allied to come into the game. This shows that players believe that Axis is stronger.

In my short experience with the game (a few tens of games), literally 90% of the games I have played in are won by Axis. They seem especially hard to beat in 10v10s. Unless I can be shown data that my experience is not normal, I would tend to think that the Axis have the balance advantage.

 

[Drang]

It is quite likely that Allies hold up a decent portion of wins, mostly by dint of French meme armour and 101st airborne.